Vindication! - Printable Version
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Vindication! - OutsiderFan - 07-10-2020
I've been waiting for something like this since April. Now it's here! This isn't done by some scientist with a political agenda. This is by Goldman Sachs, who pretty much only cares about money.
[tweet]https://twitter.com/HeidiNBC/status/1281606616794701824[/tweet]
RE: Vindication! - BostonCard - 07-10-2020
Obviously, all of this is predicated on assumptions of effectiveness of masks. But this is why I just don't get the President's stance. If for no other reason that it will help the economy and allow him to carry out his stated goal of opening everything up, I would think that he would be begging and pleading with everyone to wear a mask every day. Alas, there must be a German term for "when pride makes you take a course of action that tanks your re-election chances"
BC
RE: Vindication! - Goose - 07-10-2020
(07-10-2020, 01:03 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: I've been waiting for something like this since April. Now it's here! This isn't done by some scientist with a political agenda. This is by Goldman Sachs, who pretty much only cares about money.OF, I am completely with you on the idea we should all wear masks. But I have to say I really hate to see statements like this in the article:
[tweet]https://twitter.com/HeidiNBC/status/1281606616794701824[/tweet]
"The public health benefits of mask wearing are, by now, well-documented. A variety of cloth face coverings help prevent the coronavirus from spreading to others by blocking the wearer's respiratory droplets, which, if the individual is infected, can spread the virus through coughs, sneezes, or even regular speech."
It simply isn't true that the public health benefits of wearing a mask are well documented. It is well documented that there are mechanisms that can spread the virus that masks do inhibit. How significant that is as a a public health benefit won't be documented for a while. We don't have the equivalent of a double blind clinical trial proving it.
For some reason the press seems to believe every answer has to be a yes or a no, and if it isn't they chose one side and say it is. What is incontrovertibly true is that masks interfere with mechanisms that can spread the virus, and that masks have essentially no known downside. Given that, we should wear them. It probably matters some, and there are reasons to believe it matters a lot. It may turn out it is a very marginal benefit, but even if that is the case, it is the best (only) option we have.
RE: Vindication! - burger - 07-10-2020
(07-10-2020, 01:20 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Obviously, all of this is predicated on assumptions of effectiveness of masks. But this is why I just don't get the President's stance. If for no other reason that it will help the economy and allow him to carry out his stated goal of opening everything up, I would think that he would be begging and pleading with everyone to wear a mask every day. Alas, there must be a German term for "when pride makes you take a course of action that tanks your re-election chances"WennderStolzSiedazubringteineVorgehensweisezuergreifendieIhreWiederwahlchancenbeeinträchtigt
BC
h/t Google translate (spaces removed by me)
RE: Vindication! - JustAnotherFan - 07-10-2020
(07-10-2020, 01:20 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Obviously, all of this is predicated on assumptions of effectiveness of masks. But this is why I just don't get the President's stance. If for no other reason that it will help the economy and allow him to carry out his stated goal of opening everything up, I would think that he would be begging and pleading with everyone to wear a mask every day. Alas, there must be a German term for "when pride makes you take a course of action that tanks your re-election chances"
BC
Trump thought that investing in the culture war could make up for the economic devastation. He didn't realize it would substantially worsen it.
Trump screwed up.
RE: Vindication! - 76lsjumb - 07-10-2020
(07-10-2020, 02:38 PM)JustAnotherFan Wrote: Trump screwed up.
A lot of disagreements about a lot of topics on this Board, but, standing alone, I'm pretty sure THAT is a statement that 99.9% [and you could probably round that up] of the posters would agree with...
RE: Vindication! - Goose - 07-10-2020
(07-10-2020, 02:38 PM)JustAnotherFan Wrote:Trump also resists any idea that wasn't his. His initial reaction is to ridicule it. Sometimes if that doesn't work he will claim it WAS his idea and try to take credit for it. Unfortunately this wasn't one of those times.(07-10-2020, 01:20 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Obviously, all of this is predicated on assumptions of effectiveness of masks. But this is why I just don't get the President's stance. If for no other reason that it will help the economy and allow him to carry out his stated goal of opening everything up, I would think that he would be begging and pleading with everyone to wear a mask every day. Alas, there must be a German term for "when pride makes you take a course of action that tanks your re-election chances"
BC
Trump thought that investing in the culture war could make up for the economic devastation. He didn't realize it would substantially worsen it.
Trump screwed up.
RE: Vindication! - M T - 07-10-2020
(07-10-2020, 01:20 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Alas, there must be a German term for "when pride makes you take a course of action that tanks your re-election chances"
There is, but the Cardboard has a 10K character limit on posts ;-)
RE: Vindication! - 76lsjumb - 07-10-2020
(07-10-2020, 03:03 PM)Goose Wrote:(07-10-2020, 02:38 PM)JustAnotherFan Wrote:Trump also resists any idea that wasn't his. His initial reaction is to ridicule it. Sometimes if that doesn't work he will claim it WAS his idea and try to take credit for it. Unfortunately this wasn't one of those times.(07-10-2020, 01:20 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Obviously, all of this is predicated on assumptions of effectiveness of masks. But this is why I just don't get the President's stance. If for no other reason that it will help the economy and allow him to carry out his stated goal of opening everything up, I would think that he would be begging and pleading with everyone to wear a mask every day. Alas, there must be a German term for "when pride makes you take a course of action that tanks your re-election chances"
BC
Trump thought that investing in the culture war could make up for the economic devastation. He didn't realize it would substantially worsen it.
Trump screwed up.
Very true, and quite obvious, it seems to me. Which is why I've been frustrated/disappointed/cynical about the opposition to Trump in Washington and the media. If you want Trump to do the "right thing," you figure out how to make him think that the "right thing" is his idea and that it will benefit HIM to promote that thing. What you DON'T do is constantly criticize him, demonize him, and call him stupid and wrong for doing whatever it is that you think is the "wrong thing." That latter approach, however, is pretty much all that the Democrats and the media have done from day one, which, I think, raises a legitimate question of whether they are more interested in getting him to do the "right thing" OR in being able to criticize, demonize, and call him stupid -- even if that latter approach pretty much guarantees that he will double down on doing the "wrong thing." Sure, ranting and raving and calling him an existential threat every day feels good and routinely results in a round of high fives... but [at least in the short term, that is, until November, 2020] it hasn't actually gotten any tangible, beneficial [from the opposition's perspective] results.
[You needn't bother to wasting time saying "whatabout...," because I concede up front that this approach is very much a two-party problem... although I think Trump, who lacks any real principles beyond "I'm always right" would actually be much more susceptible to "creative persuasion" based on flattery, etc., than others, on both sides, whose positions are based on real principles.]
RE: Vindication! - Goose - 07-10-2020
(07-10-2020, 03:24 PM)76lsjumb Wrote: You needn't bother to wasting time saying "whatabout...," because I concede up front that this approach is very much a two-party problem... although I think Trump, who lacks any real principles beyond "I'm always right" would actually be much more susceptible to "creative persuasion" based on flattery, etc., than others, on both sides, whose positions are based on real principles.]Many of the people who agreed to work for Trump believed they could keep the Ship of State sailing more or less straight by utilizing that tactic. The problem is that eventually Trump will get an idea that is directly contrary to what you consider to be advisable. At that point you either have to go along with him or quit. You aren't going to persuade him that the opposite was his idea. You also have to deal with those that support his ideas immediately and undermine your attempts to get him to embrace your idea as his own. At the end of the day, this approach hasn't worked. In fairness, neither has the opposite approach of saying he is an idiot worked. It is however more intellectually honest.
RE: Vindication! - BostonCard - 07-10-2020
There was an interesting analogy by Nate Cohen. Finish the following analogy:
Covid-19 is to World War II as Trump is to:
[tweet]https://twitter.com/Nate_Cohn/status/1281567483493847043[/tweet]
His answer was Chamberlin.
Quote:If you're struggling to make sense of how Trump has fallen so far, and how he could fall further, then take this analogy further: imagine that this was the president's handling of an actual armed conflict?
COVID is *not* WW2. But the comparison is illuminating. His early comments read like Chamberlain. His fights with govs are like haggling over whether Hawaii should buy defenses for Pearl Harbor. His economy position is like being worried that rationing will hurt civilian economy.
BC
RE: Vindication! - chrisk - 07-10-2020
Trump will wear a mask this weekend when he visits Walter Reed to visit staff and injured soldiers.
Separately, Trump's rally in New Hampshire Saturday is being postponed because of a tropical storm (official position)
or lack of interest (widespread speculation).
RE: Vindication! - 76lsjumb - 07-10-2020
(07-10-2020, 03:41 PM)Goose Wrote:(07-10-2020, 03:24 PM)76lsjumb Wrote: You needn't bother to wasting time saying "whatabout...," because I concede up front that this approach is very much a two-party problem... although I think Trump, who lacks any real principles beyond "I'm always right" would actually be much more susceptible to "creative persuasion" based on flattery, etc., than others, on both sides, whose positions are based on real principles.]Many of the people who agreed to work for Trump believed they could keep the Ship of State sailing more or less straight by utilizing that tactic. The problem is that eventually Trump will get an idea that is directly contrary to what you consider to be advisable. At that point you either have to go along with him or quit. You aren't going to persuade him that the opposite was his idea. You also have to deal with those that support his ideas immediately and undermine your attempts to get him to embrace your idea as his own. At the end of the day, this approach hasn't worked. In fairness, neither has the opposite approach of saying he is an idiot worked. It is however more intellectually honest.
- Valid points, although, for the reason cited at the end, I still think the flattery approach (for lack of a better name) would have had a better chance of succeeding for his opponents than his subordinates. And I’m not sure I agree that it is “intellectually dishonest,” or, at least, no more so than much of the stuff that has been said.
RE: Vindication! - teejers1 - 07-10-2020
(07-10-2020, 03:24 PM)76lsjumb Wrote: Very true, and quite obvious, it seems to me. Which is why I've been frustrated/disappointed/cynical about the opposition to Trump in Washington and the media. If you want Trump to do the "right thing," you figure out how to make him think that the "right thing" is his idea and that it will benefit HIM to promote that thing. What you DON'T do is constantly criticize him, demonize him, and call him stupid and wrong for doing whatever it is that you think is the "wrong thing." That latter approach, however, is pretty much all that the Democrats and the media have done from day one, which, I think, raises a legitimate question of whether they are more interested in getting him to do the "right thing" OR in being able to criticize, demonize, and call him stupid -- even if that latter approach pretty much guarantees that he will double down on doing the "wrong thing." Sure, ranting and raving and calling him an existential threat every day feels good and routinely results in a round of high fives... but [at least in the short term, that is, until November, 2020] it hasn't actually gotten any tangible, beneficial [from the opposition's perspective] results.
[You needn't bother to wasting time saying "whatabout...," because I concede up front that this approach is very much a two-party problem... although I think Trump, who lacks any real principles beyond "I'm always right" would actually be much more susceptible to "creative persuasion" based on flattery, etc., than others, on both sides, whose positions are based on real principles.]
Point of Parliamentary Inquiry: if an answer to a question is so obvious, is the raised question really "legitimate?"
The answer to your question is plain: the Dems and most of the media want Trump out. THAT is the agenda; and if the country suffers a bit for it . . . so be it.
While I'd like to think politicians can "rise above" - in truth that is in very scarce supply the last decade +. Normally, I might get really agitated at the Dems, but the truth is that Trump has brought this all on himself. Entirely. It's not just his desultory policies on Covid . . . it's his entire persona which prevents him from ever admitting he made missteps, resulting in hostile, "us against them" mindset for just about everything. (I don't even bother with the psychological profile . . . other than to note it's not very "presidential"). Anyway, the refusal to admit errors, combined with bunker mentality, is an especially bad combo when trying to deal with a pandemic where everybody is learning as we go.
Bottom line: would you like to see other policymakers in DC "do better" along the lines you suggest? Yeah. Is there some blame to go around there? Probably. A little. But 95+% of the federal deficiencies on Covid front can be laid at 1600. At least that's what it looks like from here.