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Trump's vs. other factors' responsibility for poor US pandemic outcome - Printable Version

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Trump's vs. other factors' responsibility for poor US pandemic outcome - oldalum - 09-13-2020

At the risk of fanning more political flames, I am posting this because 2 NY Times columnists (one liberal, one conservative) address this question, with reasoning similar to what has been advanced on this board: 

Ross Douthat: What isn't Trump's fault

Kristof: How did the "Best-Prepared country" become a horror story?

RE: Trump's vs. other factors' responsibility for poor US pandemic outcome - Mick - 09-13-2020

(09-13-2020, 09:43 AM)oldalum Wrote:  At the risk of fanning more political flames, I am posting this because 2 NY Times columnists (one liberal, one conservative) address this question, with reasoning similar to what has been advanced on this board: 

Ross Douthat: What isn't Trump's fault

Kristof: How did the "Best-Prepared country" become a horror story?

As long as we're listing journalists who are piling on Trump, Paul Krugman thinks his actions weren't merely mistakes, they were criminal:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/10/opinion/donald-trump-coronavirus.html

RE: Trump's vs. other factors' responsibility for poor US pandemic outcome - oldalum - 09-13-2020

(09-13-2020, 11:26 AM)Mick Wrote:  As long as we're listing journalists who are piling on Trump
I think the point of Douthat's column is the opposite: that Trump is being blamed for too much with respect to the pandemic in the U.S., and there are more important underlying factors at work that will persist after Trump's gone. But I could be wrong

RE: Trump's vs. other factors' responsibility for poor US pandemic outcome - oregontim - 09-13-2020

(09-13-2020, 01:50 PM)oldalum Wrote:  
(09-13-2020, 11:26 AM)Mick Wrote:  As long as we're listing journalists who are piling on Trump
I think the point of Douthat's column is the opposite: that Trump is being blamed for too much with respect to the pandemic in the U.S., and there are more important underlying factors at work that will persist after Trump's gone. But I could be wrong

Which — OldAlum — is why you included Kristof as well. Well done. And also why Mick's addition of Paul Krugman is also appropriate.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/10/opini...virus.html

RE: Trump's vs. other factors' responsibility for poor US pandemic outcome - BostonCard - 09-13-2020

Thanks oldalum.  Counterfactuals are tricky, and I have often wondered whether a President Kasich or a President Clinton would have had different results (they almost certainly would have had different styles, but how much of a difference does it make).  My suspicion is that they probably would have gotten better results, because of the exponential growth of COVID-19, even a difference of 1 to 2 days in imposing lockdowns or increasing mask use marginally probably reduces transmission.  But what is scary is that such actions might have cut deaths in half, and we would now be approaching a grim milestone (100,000 deaths).

Douthat has raised good points, that a lot of what has happened is out of the control of the president.  But I think he sets too low a bar; we don't expect average leaders who do about as well as Italy or Spain in fighting the pandemic, we expect more than "replacement level" performance, to borrow a baseball term.  And secondly, while there is a lot that isn't Trump's "fault", I have in many past posts outlined a number of steps that would have resulted in a better response.  And again, because of the exponential growth of the virus, even a few marginal actions can make a big difference.  I try to imagine how someone like Ronald Reagan would have addressed the nation back in February, when Trump was privately telling Woodward that it was a big deal, much deadlier than the flu and transmissible over the air, while publicly stating that it would go away on its own.  Would it have made a difference?  Maybe not, but hard to believe we be any worse for it.

BC

lex24 - lex24 - 09-13-2020

(09-13-2020, 03:42 PM)oregontim Wrote:  
(09-13-2020, 01:50 PM)oldalum Wrote:  
(09-13-2020, 11:26 AM)Mick Wrote:  As long as we're listing journalists who are piling on Trump
I think the point of Douthat's column is the opposite: that Trump is being blamed for too much with respect to the pandemic in the U.S., and there are more important underlying factors at work that will persist after Trump's gone. But I could be wrong

Which — OldAlum — is why you included Kristof as well. Well done. And also why Mick's addition of Paul Krugman is also appropriate.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/10/opini...virus.html

I’m curious why it was “appropriate” to add Krugman.  I mean, it’s not “inappropriate “. But you had one conservative in Douhat and a liberal in Kristof.  Perhaps it would be “appropriate” to add a right wing ideologue to balance Krugman.....

Having whined about that, I admit I didn’t read any of the articles. I’m tired of the whole “debate”. And I’m more than tired of the 24/7 Trumpathon. It’s exhausting. Not blaming anyone here for that. Debate away. It’s me not you. At this point I get up everyday and just hope we are one day closer to this shitshow ending.

RE: lex24 - oregontim - 09-13-2020

(09-13-2020, 04:38 PM)lex24 Wrote:  
(09-13-2020, 03:42 PM)oregontim Wrote:  
(09-13-2020, 01:50 PM)oldalum Wrote:  
(09-13-2020, 11:26 AM)Mick Wrote:  As long as we're listing journalists who are piling on Trump
I think the point of Douthat's column is the opposite: that Trump is being blamed for too much with respect to the pandemic in the U.S., and there are more important underlying factors at work that will persist after Trump's gone. But I could be wrong

Which — OldAlum — is why you included Kristof as well. Well done. And also why Mick's addition of Paul Krugman is also appropriate.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/10/opini...virus.html

I’m curious why it was “appropriate” to add Krugman.  I mean, it’s not “inappropriate “. But you had one conservative in Douhat and a liberal in Kristof.  Perhaps it would be “appropriate” to add a right wing ideologue to balance Krugman.....

Having whined about that, I admit I didn’t read any of the articles.  I’m tired of the whole “debate”. And I’m more than tired of the 24/7 Trumpathon.  It’s exhausting. Not blaming anyone here for that. Debate away.  It’s me not you.  At this point I get up everyday and just hope we are one day closer to this shitshow ending.

Appropriate because adding a third NYT column on the same subject as the first two seems appropriate to me. And Nobel prize winner, t'boot. Just my opinion. (Might be too much information to add, but re 50/50 balance, I'm tired of false equivalence.)

The 24/7 Trumpathon is unfortunate reality, as information piles on relentlessly. Proof of the Covid coverup, attempting to change CDC statements, attempting to change national intelligence, more lies, more doubling down ... the 24/7 Trumpathon is a reflection of events, eyes open, reality. I so wish it weren't so.

RE: lex24 - BostonCard - 09-13-2020

(09-13-2020, 04:38 PM)lex24 Wrote:  Having whined about that, I admit I didn’t read any of the articles.  I’m tired of the whole “debate”. And I’m more than tired of the 24/7 Trumpathon.  It’s exhausting. Not blaming anyone here for that. Debate away.  It’s me not you.  At this point I get up everyday and just hope we are one day closer to this shitshow ending.

Not to pile onto Trump, but isn’t that all part of his plan.  The guy revels in the attention, and while the media predictably does what the media is going to do, Trump is a master in manipulating the media to do his bidding, which is to give him attention.

I mean, if the media really wanted to piss off Trump, it would ignore him.

BC