Four seasons, two programs, same coaches

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Four seasons, two programs, same coaches - gailtate - 11-10-2020

Notre Dame, Stanford:

How long ago does Conrad Ukropina’s season-ending field goal against the Fighting Irish feel? One could make a very strong argument that the Cardinal was right at the same level as Notre Dame as a program at that moment. Since 2015, here is how they compare:

Records:
Notre Dame 37-14
Stanford 32-20
AP Final Ranks ‘16-’19:
Notre Dame: NR, 11, 5, 12
Stanford: 12, 20, NR, NR.
(Courtesy R.J. Abeytia)

Brian Kelly, in the wake of a 4-8 season in 2015, cleaned house and doubled-down on recruiting. Then there's our "What, Me Worry?" guy.

RE: Four seasons, two programs, same coaches - Phogge - 11-10-2020

Kelly faced a vigorous alumni and subway alumni calling for his head. He responded. Shaw faces an alumni basically asleep about football and an AD who is years away from thinking about a change.

Plus Bay Area yawns and not much history of college coaching media critique. Since Glenn Dickey and his vendetta against certain Cal coaches, none.

RE: Four seasons, two programs, same coaches - fullmetal - 11-10-2020

IIRC, it was the Notre Shame AD who told Kelly to clean house. I don't see Muir telling Shaw how to run his program.

RE: Four seasons, two programs, same coaches - gailtate - 11-10-2020

(11-10-2020, 09:55 AM)fullmetal Wrote: IIRC, it was the Notre Shame AD who told Kelly to clean house. I don't see Muir telling Shaw how to run his program.

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And therein lies the rub -- along with the reason Notre Dame is Notre Dame and Stanford is, well, not Notre Dame. Look at this board full of apologists and the way they chide anybody deemed excessively critical of St. David. Shame, that. ND and Stanford were equals very recently. The divergence occurred right after the 2015 regular season. All my obnoxious ND "friends" smugly assured me at the time that Stanford's rise would be brief and fragile. "No way", I retorted. "This is real!" I was clueless. But I Don't Get Fooled Again.

RE: Four seasons, two programs, same coaches - Papa John - 11-10-2020

Got it, gailtate. So with whom do you replace Shaw and Muir? Realistic suggestions, please!

RE: Four seasons, two programs, same coaches - fullmetal - 11-10-2020

(11-10-2020, 12:07 PM)gailtate Wrote: Look at this board full of apologists and the way they chide anybody deemed excessively critical of St. David. Shame, that.

I often side with teejers in my criticism of Shaw. There is a lot I feel like Shaw could be doing better to improve the on-field results.

But I also recognize that there is a lot that Shaw is doing right that perhaps no other coach in America could be doing right at Stanford.

There's nothing wrong with being the loyal opposition and wanting improvement from the people we have right now.

RE: Four seasons, two programs, same coaches - Phogge - 11-10-2020

You don't want to know who I would replace Shaw with but he once coached under Harballs.

As for Muir, somebody with a pulse.

RE: Four seasons, two programs, same coaches - Farm93 - 11-10-2020

Funny today I see Four Seasons and my mind drifts to hotels and landscaping. :)

Moving to this thread. One coach has 37 losses over 10+ seasons and gets a schedule loaded with easy opponents and loads of home games. But the big flaw? That coach also had to vacate wins. That's a no no for any comparison to a Stanford coach IMHO.

The other coach has 35 losses in 10+ seasons. So that looks largely comparable.

They both have been to big time bowls and there is ZERO doubt in my mind that Stanford teams that went to the BSC/NYG Bowls would have gone to the CFP if they had shiny gold helmets. There are a lot of reasons for that but actually Shaw and Muir are minor players in that reality.

FWIW - I noted this before, but believe it more now - The results in 2020 just need to be dramatically discounted. When your local health policies are a big factor in your season record it is best to just throw up an asterisk and get ready for 2021. Enjoy the Saturday entertainment during the inevitable shutdown #2, continue to hope the players stay healthy, and wait for the 2021 season before making any decisions on staff retention. That will apply for every sport.

Unless a Stanford coach commits some major NCAA violations in the next 5 months, they likely will be retained into the 2021-2022 academic year for a number of reasons that revolve around COVID mitigation logistics and the very tough budget challenges COVID created.

RE: Four seasons, two programs, same coaches - gailtate - 11-10-2020

(11-10-2020, 12:25 PM)Papa John Wrote: Got it, gailtate. So with whom do you replace Shaw and Muir? Realistic suggestions, please!

I don't have names but here are the models --
HC: A young Denny Green who wants, as Shaw once described it, to be the Tara Vanderveer of football and see Notre Dame as Stanford's real rival and the team to beat. In games and recruiting.
AD: A young Bob Bowlsby who can identify and hire that guy, and be inclined to hang around.

RE: Four seasons, two programs, same coaches - Papa John - 11-10-2020

(11-10-2020, 02:06 PM)gailtate Wrote:
(11-10-2020, 12:25 PM)Papa John Wrote: Got it, gailtate. So with whom do you replace Shaw and Muir? Realistic suggestions, please!

I don't have names but here are the models --
HC: A young Denny Green who wants, as Shaw once described it, to be the Tara Vanderveer of football and see Notre Dame as Stanford's real rival and the team to beat. In games and recruiting.
AD: A young Bob Bowlsby who can identify and hire that guy, and be inclined to hang around.

I love me some Denny Green! But to the specifics...

David Shaw's record versus Notre Dame: 5 wins, 4 losses
Notre Dame commits who were offered by Stanford (we lost) vs. Stanford commits who were offered by Notre Dame (we won) since 2011 (per 247sports):
2011 (Harbaugh-Shaw transition): 7/2
2012: 5/7
2013: 6/2
2014: 4/6
2015: 7/4
2016: 3/2
2017: 1/7
2018: 3/5
2019: 5/7
2020: 3/3
Total score for recruiting battles during the Shaw era: ND 44, Stanford 45

As far as AD, I love Bob Bowlsby! In fact, the Stanford AD when David Shaw was hired was... Bob Bowlsby. However, Bowlsby did not hang around for very long after hiring Shaw.

So to summarize:
1. We need to replace David Shaw with a coach who can compete with Notre Dame both on the field and recruiting-wise like David Shaw has.
2. We need to replace Bernard Muir with an athletic director who is like the AD who hired Shaw, only will stay around longer.
3. Both the new coach and new AD need to be young.

RE: Four seasons, two programs, same coaches - CowboyIndian - 11-10-2020

And, yes, we are not Notre Dame. Very glad about that.

RE: Four seasons, two programs, same coaches - OutsiderFan - 11-10-2020

The pandemic has toned down my passion for sports across the board. I hate Shaw's no offense huddle scheme and surrender monkey coaching more than ever, but I don't let it bother me as much any more.

I have watched so much less football this season than I usually have and have realized it just isn't as important as it used to be to me. All this has made the Niners season of lost players due to injury be a lot easier to take.

Brian Kelly is a fire-breathing dragon of a competitor. David Shaw is not. That's just the facts.

RE: Four seasons, two programs, same coaches - BostonCard - 11-10-2020

For a minute, I thought this thread was going to be about the Four Seasons Total Landscaping, and I was going to freeze it for violating the no politics rule.

BC

RE: Four seasons, two programs, same coaches - gailtate - 11-10-2020

(11-10-2020, 03:04 PM)Papa John Wrote:
(11-10-2020, 02:06 PM)gailtate Wrote:
(11-10-2020, 12:25 PM)Papa John Wrote: Got it, gailtate. So with whom do you replace Shaw and Muir? Realistic suggestions, please!

I don't have names but here are the models --
HC: A young Denny Green who wants, as Shaw once described it, to be the Tara Vanderveer of football and see Notre Dame as Stanford's real rival and the team to beat. In games and recruiting.
AD: A young Bob Bowlsby who can identify and hire that guy, and be inclined to hang around.

I love me some Denny Green! But to the specifics...

David Shaw's record versus Notre Dame: 5 wins, 4 losses
Notre Dame commits who were offered by Stanford (we lost) vs. Stanford commits who were offered by Notre Dame (we won) since 2011 (per 247sports):
2011 (Harbaugh-Shaw transition): 7/2
2012: 5/7
2013: 6/2
2014: 4/6
2015: 7/4
2016: 3/2
2017: 1/7
2018: 3/5
2019: 5/7
2020: 3/3
Total score for recruiting battles during the Shaw era: ND 44, Stanford 45

As far as AD, I love Bob Bowlsby! In fact, the Stanford AD when David Shaw was hired was... Bob Bowlsby. However, Bowlsby did not hang around for very long after hiring Shaw.

So to summarize:
1. We need to replace David Shaw with a coach who can compete with Notre Dame both on the field and recruiting-wise like David Shaw has.
2. We need to replace Bernard Muir with an athletic director who is like the AD who hired Shaw, only will stay around longer.
3. Both the new coach and new AD need to be young.

Don't make the often-made mistake of extrapolating Shaw's past success, which began to unravel with disappointing recruiting classes more recently. Kelley's team is far superior to Shaw's in every dimension today and the current trend-line is discouraging to say the least: he seems hell-bent on doubling down on the status quo. On top of that, Ian Book went to HS in Randy Fasani's old neighborhood near Sacramento.

RE: Four seasons, two programs, same coaches - Papa John - 11-10-2020

OK, let's consider the most recent four seasons for head-to-head and recruiting.

Won/loss (2016-19): Stanford 2 wins, UND 2 wins,
Recruiting battle (2017-20): Stanford 22, UND 12

Ian Book was not recruited by Stanford in 2016, although he received offers from UND (obviously), Boise State, Idaho, UNLV and WSU. Ian Book went to high school in El Dorado Hills in El Dorado County, off of US 50. Randy Fasani went to high school in Loomis in Placer County, off of Interstate 80. More to the point, in the 2016 recruiting class, Book was the #20 pro-style passer, #58 overall recruit in California and #517 recruit nationally. That year Stanford received a commitment from KJ Costello, who was the #3 pro-style passer, #7 in California and #47 nationally. Stanford also offered Jake Bentley, who went to South Carolina.

I agree that UND's football team has been superior to Stanford's the past two years. There's no point putting lipstick on a 4-8 pig, and along with everyone else I am really concerned about the 2021 recruiting class and strength and conditioning, esp. to the extent that it impacts the frequency and severity of injuries.

But I also strongly feel that Shaw has more than earned the right to turn the program around and restore it to some semblance of its former glory. Kelly made wholesale changes after UND's 4-8 season, and it's clearly paid off. Shaw has not made changes, and time will tell if that decision was wise or foolish. But I say give him time before declaring total and absolute failure.

RE: Four seasons, two programs, same coaches - fullmetal - 11-11-2020

Wait, are we really comparing Notre Shame to Stanford?

1. Lizzy Seeberg
2. Declan Sullivan

Brian Kelly is a trash human being. David Shaw is way out of Kelly's league.

RE: Four seasons, two programs, same coaches - GK3 - 11-11-2020

(11-10-2020, 02:03 PM)Farm93 Wrote: Funny today I see Four Seasons and my mind drifts to hotels and landscaping. :)

Moving to this thread. One coach has 37 losses over 10+ seasons and gets a schedule loaded with easy opponents and loads of home games. But the big flaw? That coach also had to vacate wins. That's a no no for any comparison to a Stanford coach IMHO.

The other coach has 35 losses in 10+ seasons. So that looks largely comparable.

They both have been to big time bowls and there is ZERO doubt in my mind that Stanford teams that went to the BSC/NYG Bowls would have gone to the CFP if they had shiny gold helmets. There are a lot of reasons for that but actually Shaw and Muir are minor players in that reality.

FWIW - I noted this before, but believe it more now - The results in 2020 just need to be dramatically discounted. When your local health policies are a big factor in your season record it is best to just throw up an asterisk and get ready for 2021. Enjoy the Saturday entertainment during the inevitable shutdown #2, continue to hope the players stay healthy, and wait for the 2021 season before making any decisions on staff retention. That will apply for every sport.

Unless a Stanford coach commits some major NCAA violations in the next 5 months, they likely will be retained into the 2021-2022 academic year for a number of reasons that revolve around COVID mitigation logistics and the very tough budget challenges COVID created.

Agreed - this year is an anomaly, very little represents a normal year. As far as I am concerned I think trying to play under these conditions is pretty much a joke. From week to week you have no real idea who might actually be available a week later. As far as I am concerned we should just fast forward to the weekend after the last game and move on.

RE: Four seasons, two programs, same coaches - JustAnotherFan - 11-11-2020

(11-11-2020, 02:14 AM)fullmetal Wrote: Wait, are we really comparing Notre Shame to Stanford?

1. Lizzy Seeberg
2. Declan Sullivan

Brian Kelly is a trash human being. David Shaw is way out of Kelly's league.

Don't forget that Prince Shembo (who allegedly raped Seeberg) was drafted into the NFL. Sure, he lost his spot on the roster after he killed his girlfriend's dog. But getting drafted is a win for Notre Shame. (Not that Stanford's hands are clean with linebackers accused of rape being drafted into the NFL, recently).

lex24 - lex24 - 11-11-2020

(11-10-2020, 09:30 AM)gailtate Wrote: Notre Dame, Stanford:

How long ago does Conrad Ukropina’s season-ending field goal against the Fighting Irish feel? One could make a very strong argument that the Cardinal was right at the same level as Notre Dame as a program at that moment. Since 2015, here is how they compare:

Records:
Notre Dame 37-14
Stanford 32-20
AP Final Ranks ‘16-’19:
Notre Dame: NR, 11, 5, 12
Stanford: 12, 20, NR, NR.
(Courtesy R.J. Abeytia)

Brian Kelly, in the wake of a 4-8 season in 2015, cleaned house and doubled-down on recruiting. Then there's our "What, Me Worry?" guy.

Gail, I suggest you immediately start a petition to get Shaw fired . If you have a lot of money use it. Because your obsession is obvious. Post after Post after Post. Saying essentially the same thing. We get it, he can’t coach his way out of a paper bag. Whose next. I’m sure that whomever you choose will return Stanford to its pre Harbaugh/Shaw prominence.

RE: lex24 - donkey687 - 11-11-2020

My biggest beef with Shaw's recruiting is his inability to recruit redshirt seniors to return for their 5th year. Last season, we had almost no 5th year seniors with guys like Barton et al retiring or transferring. This year, we have 11 former starters who are either playing for other teams (Eboh, Hattis, Costello, Hamilton, Powell, Williams, Swann) or not playing this season (Little, Adeebo, Pryts, Head). This doesn't count the non-starters who transferred out (Stewart, Speights, et al). We didn't need or want all of those guys back and you can't fault Costello, Adeebo and Little who made NFL decisions, but this team would sure look different if we had 6 more 5th year seniors with 2 more experienced OL, 2 more DL, a ILB and starting CB. Those are positions of precarious depth that for various reasons our program wasn't attractive enough to retain those players. It bums me out and in my opinion not a good reflection of the state of the program. Other programs don't have that kind of inability to retain 5th year seniors. People will respond that we didn't have scholarships for them all and that they didn't get into grad school at Stanford, but the reality is most of them made football decisions and decided they were better off elsewhere and we had room for Swann, Williams, Hattis, Hamilton, Eboh, Pryts and Head who all would have seen playing time and most of them would have been starters.