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Second Place? - CardinalSagehen - 12-07-2020

Here's what Vince Lombardi had to say about second place:

"Second place is meaningless. You can’t always be first, but you have to believe that you should have been – that you were never beaten – that time just ran out on you." 

"There is no room for second place. There is only one place in my game, and that’s first place. I have finished second twice in my time at Green Bay, and I don’t ever want to finish second again. There is a second place bowl game, but it is a game for losers played by losers. It is and always has been an American zeal to be first in anything we do, and to win, and to win."

The problem is, we can't get first, as everyone already knows. With a win, which is no small feat against Oregon State this year, we would be guaranteed second place in the tie-breakers regardless of whatever else happens.

If Oregon wins, we can claim a "tie for first" in the North, but so can Oregon, UW and possibly even Wazzu.  Oregon wins the division and we're technically second based on the best record in head-to-head games among the tied teams.

If UW wins, we can claim an outright second place with a Wazzu loss, or we'd be tied with Wazzu and our better division record edges them out.  We aren't "tied for first" but we're a clearer second, and we beat the first place team. Time just ran out on us.

If Oregon or Washington can't play in the CCG due to Covid (which would be horrible and nobody is rooting for it), the second place team would be the replacement, per Bruce Feldman's report. 

Perhaps a more important implication is that second place might draw us a better opponent from the South during the CCG week - for example, the loser of the USC-UCLA game. That LA team would be the next-ranked team from the South aside from Colorado, which we've already played.  

I personally don't need a win against Oregon State to be more meaningful than it is - winning is more fun and better for the program in many other ways. Stanford Football can't take any wins for granted these days!  But second place and/or a "tie for 1st" is a whole lot better than third through sixth! 

To be clear, I am NOT looking past Oregon State, but as a fan I don't influence the outcomes and have the luxury of thinking ahead whenever I want. Superstitions mean nothing to me, but sorry if I've offended some by offending the Woofing gods!

RE: Second Place? - Papa John - 12-08-2020

Plus Ricky Bobby said "If you're not first, you're last."

While I have respect for both Bobby and Lombardi, I don't particularly agree with their winning-is-the-only-thing mentality. I prefer this quote by Paulo Coelho: "You are not defeated when you lose. You are defeated when you quit."

Obviously I wanted--and expected--Stanford to beat UW last Saturday. But that's not what made me proudest about the team. It's that they didn't quit in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds. And I know that they will take the same never-quit attitude to Corvallis. Would I be happier if Stanford were undefeated? Of course. But I don't know that I would be prouder.

RE: Second Place? - bl82 - 12-08-2020

Then of course, is the first America's Cup Race:

The month was August and the clay was the twenty-second. Even the time of the afternoon—5:45—was mentioned by the alert correspondent of the Times of London, who further observed that the Prince of Wales went ashore from the royal yacht wearing his while sailor’s uniform and tarpaulin hat and danced down the road with boyish vivacity.

To bring the appealing picture into focus it is necessary to add only that the year was 1851, that the young prince was the future King Edward VII, and that the occasion was a race in which the most newsworthy competitor was a schooner from the United States, the America .

Queen Victoria was immensely interested and probably assumed that at least one of the fourteen British cutlers and schooners that had started at 10 o’clock that morning in a 53-mile contest around England’s Isle of Wight would defeat the American invader. From the Victoria and Albert , in which the royal party had put aside the cares of state, the smaller steam yacht Fairy was dispatched seaward of the Needles for a view that the young prince and his shoregoing party had relinquished because of wind and drizzle. The Fairy ’s return gave rise to questions and answers so famous and so paraphrased that some historians cloud their authenticity with the invidious word “alleged.”

Thus the Queen is alleged to have asked a signalmaster, “Are the yachts in sight?”

“Only the America , may it please Your Majesty.”

“Which is second?”

“Ah, Your Majesty, there is no second.”

RE: Second Place? - Row80Critic - 12-08-2020

Is the Pac12 still planning to have all teams play an additional game on the day of the conference championship game?  How would that game play into the standings?  If those games goes forward, it seems like we could end up with a runner up that has a better record than the champion...?

RE: Second Place? - CardinalSagehen - 12-08-2020

(12-08-2020, 12:21 PM)Row80Critic Wrote:  Is the Pac12 still planning to have all teams play an additional game on the day of the conference championship game?  How would that game play into the standings?  If those games goes forward, it seems like we could end up with a runner up that has a better record than the champion...?

That’s a good question.  I was assuming that it would be like a non-conference game that happens to be against a team in the other division, and it would not affect division standings.  But that’s just an assumption.  

I also wonder whether smart decisions could be made on the fly, such as holding the Apple Cup if UW doesn’t make it to the CCG.  That might be expecting a little too much of the Pac-12, though.

RE: Second Place? - bbm233 - 12-08-2020

(12-08-2020, 12:21 PM)CardinalSagehen Wrote:  I also wonder whether smart decisions could be made on the fly, such as holding the Apple Cup if UW doesn’t make it to the CCG.  

I have no doubt that, if the Huskies are not in the CCG, they will be playing the Apple Cup against WSU. Of course, that would mean two South Division teams would have to play, and I would assume that would be a make-up for somebody who didn't play ASU. My question is whether the Pac-12 will be smart enough to schedule in such a way to try to optimize the number of teams who would become bowl-eligible with a victory. For instance, matching up two 2-3 teams so that one of them gets to .500. Maybe that's not important in a year when we have only 4(?) guaranteed slots? Three of those already seem to be spoken for: North Champ, USC, and CU, right?

RE: Second Place? - BostonCard - 12-08-2020

(12-08-2020, 02:57 PM)bbm233 Wrote:  
(12-08-2020, 12:21 PM)CardinalSagehen Wrote:  I also wonder whether smart decisions could be made on the fly, such as holding the Apple Cup if UW doesn’t make it to the CCG.  

I have no doubt that, if the Huskies are not in the CCG, they will be playing the Apple Cup against WSU. Of course, that would mean two South Division teams would have to play, and I would assume that would be a make-up for somebody who didn't play ASU. My question is whether the Pac-12 will be smart enough to schedule in such a way to try to optimize the number of teams who would become bowl-eligible with a victory. For instance, matching up two 2-3 teams so that one of them gets to .500. Maybe that's not important in a year when we have only 4(?) guaranteed slots? Three of those already seem to be spoken for: North Champ, USC, and CU, right?

You could match up Colorado and USC, as both teams are undefeated.

BC

RE: Second Place? - CowboyIndian - 12-08-2020

(12-08-2020, 11:52 AM)bl82 Wrote:  The month was August and the clay was the twenty-second.

Dirty loser clay!


at least one of the fourteen British cutlers and schooners that had started at 10 o’clock that morning in a 53-mile contest around England’s Isle of Wight would defeat the American invader.

Loser cutlers not sharp enough!
(12-07-2020, 10:21 PM)CardinalSagehen Wrote:   You can’t always be first, but you have to believe that you should have been – that you were never beaten – that time just ran out on you." 

Hmmmm....this sounds like someone familiar.


RE: Second Place? - CardinalSagehen - 12-08-2020

(12-08-2020, 03:01 PM)BostonCard Wrote:  
(12-08-2020, 02:57 PM)bbm233 Wrote:  
(12-08-2020, 12:21 PM)CardinalSagehen Wrote:  I also wonder whether smart decisions could be made on the fly, such as holding the Apple Cup if UW doesn’t make it to the CCG.  

I have no doubt that, if the Huskies are not in the CCG, they will be playing the Apple Cup against WSU. Of course, that would mean two South Division teams would have to play, and I would assume that would be a make-up for somebody who didn't play ASU. My question is whether the Pac-12 will be smart enough to schedule in such a way to try to optimize the number of teams who would become bowl-eligible with a victory. For instance, matching up two 2-3 teams so that one of them gets to .500. Maybe that's not important in a year when we have only 4(?) guaranteed slots? Three of those already seem to be spoken for: North Champ, USC, and CU, right?

You could match up Colorado and USC, as both teams are undefeated.

BC

That’s the matchup that should have happened this week, instead of USC-UCLA and COLO-UTAH.   It’s sort of impossible for that to happen next week because either USC or Colorado will be the South champion and playing in the CCG.

lex24 - lex24 - 12-08-2020

Is Stanford going to play Dec 19?

RE: lex24 - donkey687 - 12-08-2020

(12-08-2020, 07:40 PM)lex24 Wrote:  Is Stanford going to play Dec 19?

Most likely but nothing set in stone.  UCLA is the most likely as the original plan was to match north versus south, but we could play WSU.  We could end up with the best record in North division play despite not winning the North.

RE: Second Place? - gailtate - 12-10-2020

(12-08-2020, 10:47 AM)Papa John Wrote:  Plus Ricky Bobby said "If you're not first, you're last."

While I have respect for both Bobby and Lombardi, I don't particularly agree with their winning-is-the-only-thing mentality. I prefer this quote by Paulo Coelho: "You are not defeated when you lose. You are defeated when you quit."

Obviously I wanted--and expected--Stanford to beat UW last Saturday. But that's not what made me proudest about the team. It's that they didn't quit in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds. And I know that they will take the same never-quit attitude to Corvallis. Would I be happier if Stanford were undefeated? Of course. But I don't know that I would be prouder.

All due respect, I beg to differ. One of the many beautiful things about sports is that it's binary. There are no nuances. There is no ambiguity. You either score the TD, the basket, the run or...you do not. it's one or the other. In the end, you win or you lose. Nothing in between. It makes the win all the sweeter. Lombardi was right. It's everything. You play by the rules to win. It's the whole point.

RE: Second Place? - BostonCard - 12-10-2020

Or, as encapsulated by the noted sage and current ASU coach Herm Edwards...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zLlIdZikDk

BC

RE: Second Place? - Papa John - 12-10-2020

We don't entirely disagree, gailtate. Of course you play by the rules to win. 

Legit competition is the best catalyst for learning, growth and improvement (IMO). But even though you strive to win, you can still learn, grow and improve through loss. I suppose it's different in the NFL since it's strictly a business. But I still hold on to the belief that college athletics is not entirely a business endeavor. So many college athletes will not play professionally after they leave Stanford, but the learning, growth and improvement that they experienced through the combination of academics and athletics on The Farm will help them in their non-athletic endeavors. And that's a point of pride for me.