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RE: Undrafteds - norcard10 - 05-04-2021

(05-01-2021, 04:09 PM)donkey687 Wrote:  Congrats to the guys drafted. I can see all five of those guys having successful NFL careers.

Good luck to the undrafteds who will hopefully sign UDFA deals.

While I don't blame Schaffer, Robinson or Harrington for not coming back for a sixth year as 5 years of college is a lot, but I wonder if Sarrell or Weddington is having any regrets about not coming back for a fifth year. They could have been more heralded players for Stanford next year and have been in a better position for the NFL. I wish them luck but they have a tough path in front of them to make a NFL roster.

Maybe.  Then again, look at Bryce Love.  This team isn't going to be good next year especially with this defense and new QB.  I'd probably transfer out and go to Bama which churns out high draft picks after getting a degree.


RE: Undrafteds - SamuelMcF - 05-04-2021

(05-04-2021, 08:24 AM)norcard10 Wrote:  
(05-01-2021, 04:09 PM)donkey687 Wrote:  Congrats to the guys drafted. I can see all five of those guys having successful NFL careers.

Good luck to the undrafteds who will hopefully sign UDFA deals.

While I don't blame Schaffer, Robinson or Harrington for not coming back for a sixth year as 5 years of college is a lot, but I wonder if Sarrell or Weddington is having any regrets about not coming back for a fifth year. They could have been more heralded players for Stanford next year and have been in a better position for the NFL. I wish them luck but they have a tough path in front of them to make a NFL roster.

Maybe.  Then again, look at Bryce Love.  This team isn't going to be good next year especially with this defense and new QB.  I'd probably transfer out and go to Bama which churns out high draft picks after getting a degree.

That's funny that you think any of these players would see a lick of playing time at Alabama.


RE: Undrafteds - norcard10 - 05-04-2021

(05-04-2021, 10:05 AM)SamuelMcF Wrote:  
(05-04-2021, 08:24 AM)norcard10 Wrote:  
(05-01-2021, 04:09 PM)donkey687 Wrote:  Congrats to the guys drafted. I can see all five of those guys having successful NFL careers.

Good luck to the undrafteds who will hopefully sign UDFA deals.

While I don't blame Schaffer, Robinson or Harrington for not coming back for a sixth year as 5 years of college is a lot, but I wonder if Sarrell or Weddington is having any regrets about not coming back for a fifth year. They could have been more heralded players for Stanford next year and have been in a better position for the NFL. I wish them luck but they have a tough path in front of them to make a NFL roster.

Maybe.  Then again, look at Bryce Love.  This team isn't going to be good next year especially with this defense and new QB.  I'd probably transfer out and go to Bama which churns out high draft picks after getting a degree.

That's funny that you think any of these players would see a lick of playing time at Alabama.

What's funnier (sarcasm) is how Sarrell went from the top recruit in the nation to becoming undrafted.  I knew we were bad at developing QBs outside of luck but now OL as well it seems.  Walker amazingly got drafted with only 2 seasons.  Probably smart to have not played.


RE: Undrafteds - SamuelMcF - 05-04-2021

(05-04-2021, 10:45 AM)norcard10 Wrote:  
(05-04-2021, 10:05 AM)SamuelMcF Wrote:  
(05-04-2021, 08:24 AM)norcard10 Wrote:  
(05-01-2021, 04:09 PM)donkey687 Wrote:  Congrats to the guys drafted. I can see all five of those guys having successful NFL careers.

Good luck to the undrafteds who will hopefully sign UDFA deals.

While I don't blame Schaffer, Robinson or Harrington for not coming back for a sixth year as 5 years of college is a lot, but I wonder if Sarrell or Weddington is having any regrets about not coming back for a fifth year. They could have been more heralded players for Stanford next year and have been in a better position for the NFL. I wish them luck but they have a tough path in front of them to make a NFL roster.

Maybe.  Then again, look at Bryce Love.  This team isn't going to be good next year especially with this defense and new QB.  I'd probably transfer out and go to Bama which churns out high draft picks after getting a degree.

That's funny that you think any of these players would see a lick of playing time at Alabama.

What's funnier (sarcasm) is how Sarrell went from the top recruit in the nation to becoming undrafted.  I knew we were bad at developing QBs outside of luck but now OL as well it seems.  Walker amazingly got drafted with only 2 seasons.  Probably smart to have not played.

3* Drew Dalman (who Bloomgren didn't even want) would like a word.

Carbs was dealt such a horrible hand. I have faith in Heffernan (who now has an actual OL pipeline to develop).


RE: Undrafteds - pefloresjr - 05-04-2021

(05-04-2021, 10:45 AM)norcard10 Wrote:  What's funnier (sarcasm) is how Sarrell went from the top recruit in the nation to becoming undrafted.  I knew we were bad at developing QBs outside of luck but now OL as well it seems.  Walker amazingly got drafted with only 2 seasons.  Probably smart to have not played.

So if a player fails to live up to his high school ranking, we failed to develop him.  I suppose that when a player does live up to or exceeds his ranking it is just because of his hidden, innate talent but absolutely not from the coaching.  I recall hearing that a lot about Luck.  But Hogan developed more than any other qb I've ever seen.  Costello and Mills were both also better at the end than when they started.  I don't think Shaw and his staff are perfect but they don't deserve to be viewed from a perspective that always amounts to "Heads I win, Tails you lose."  

Cheers,
Pete F.


RE: Undrafteds - norcard10 - 05-04-2021

(05-04-2021, 11:19 AM)pefloresjr Wrote:  
(05-04-2021, 10:45 AM)norcard10 Wrote:  What's funnier (sarcasm) is how Sarrell went from the top recruit in the nation to becoming undrafted.  I knew we were bad at developing QBs outside of luck but now OL as well it seems.  Walker amazingly got drafted with only 2 seasons.  Probably smart to have not played.

So if a player fails to live up to his high school ranking, we failed to develop him.  I suppose that when a player does live up to or exceeds his ranking it is just because of his hidden, innate talent but absolutely not from the coaching.  I recall hearing that a lot about Luck.  But Hogan developed more than any other qb I've ever seen.  Costello and Mills were both also better at the end than when they started.  I don't think Shaw and his staff are perfect but they don't deserve to be viewed from a perspective that always amounts to "Heads I win, Tails you lose."  

Cheers,
Pete F.

Costello clearly regressed.  Great that you pointed out Hogan (who looked absolutely abysmal his junior year but then came back senior year).  What about Nunes, Jack West, Ryan Burns? Absolutely great development indeed.  Mills did better but again, no doubt he is disappointed at his draft position relative to his high school ranking. The best OL developed (based on star rating) was likely DeCastro and that was not under Shaw.

Besides the "40 year decision", what other benefit is there to coming here if you are a top QB/OL 5 star recruit that has a legitimate 1st round shot at the NFL? You think Jameis Winston would have been top pick if he had gone here?


RE: Undrafteds - Papa John - 05-04-2021

QBR ratings for starting QBs under Shaw:

Luck (2009-2011): 143.5, 170.2, 169.7
Nunes (2012): 119.6
Hogan (2012-2015): 147.9, 151.5, 145.8, 171.0
Burns (2016): 121.2
Chryst (2016-2017): 133.8, 123.1
Costello (2017-2019): 139.5, 155.0, 121.6
West (2019-2020): 84.4, 136.5
Mills (2019-2020):  144.8, 139.9

KJ Costello regressed? Sure. He was injured at the end of the first half of the first game in the clusterf**k 2019 season and wasn't the same when he returned. But note that his lowest QB rating was at Mississippi State (114.6). So I guess that proves that Leach can't develop quarterbacks?

Kevin Hogan was dealing with a family tragedy his junior year, but it's true that Shaw didn't tell him to suck it up and focus on football.

Nunes did not perform consistently and was replaced by Hogan and then had a career-ending injury, so it's true that he did not develop. Burns also did not perform consistently and was replaced by Chryst, so by definition he did not develop.

However, West looked much better to me versus Oregon in 2020 than he did in 2019 (versus UCLA), so it's not right to say that he hasn't developed.

Due to various injuries, Davis Mills made 11 starts at Stanford, less than one full non-Covid season. Is he disappointed by his draft selection? Maybe, but I don't see how that's Shaw's fault.


RE: Undrafteds - norcard10 - 05-04-2021

(05-04-2021, 03:05 PM)Papa John Wrote:  QBR ratings for starting QBs under Shaw:

Luck (2009-2011): 143.5, 170.2, 169.7
Nunes (2012): 119.6
Hogan (2012-2015): 147.9, 151.5, 145.8, 171.0
Burns (2016): 121.2
Chryst (2016-2017): 133.8, 123.1
Costello (2017-2019): 139.5, 155.0, 121.6
West (2019-2020): 84.4, 136.5
Mills (2019-2020):  144.8, 139.9

KJ Costello regressed? Sure. He was injured at the end of the first half of the first game in the clusterf**k 2019 season and wasn't the same when he returned. But note that his lowest QB rating was at Mississippi State (114.6). So I guess that proves that Leach can't develop quarterbacks?

Kevin Hogan was dealing with a family tragedy his junior year, but it's true that Shaw didn't tell him to suck it up and focus on football.

Nunes did not perform consistently and was replaced by Hogan and then had a career-ending injury, so it's true that he did not develop. Burns also did not perform consistently and was replaced by Chryst, so by definition he did not develop.

However, West looked much better to me versus Oregon in 2020 than he did in 2019 (versus UCLA), so it's not right to say that he hasn't developed.

Due to various injuries, Davis Mills made 11 starts at Stanford, less than one full non-Covid season. Is he disappointed by his draft selection? Maybe, but I don't see how that's Shaw's fault.

Based on what Leach did against Stanford with graduate transfers, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.  Costello's lack of production might be due more to Shaw and besides Leach has a legitimate gripe given it was his first season in the SEC and during COVID.

What's more telling is, how many of those 4/5 star QBs above (that actually started) got drafted in the first 3 rounds besides luck (who was really under Harbaugh)?  I completely forgot about Keller, which is sad.  Again, the point stands.  If I'm a 5 star QB or OL recruit, why on earth would I go to Stanford vs OU, Bama, Ohio State based on potential vs result? Education not withstanding. Again at that point, it's a trade-off between a 40 year decision / degree vs much higher earning potential. Sure, OSU has some clunkers like J.T. Barrett, but then again it did get Dwayne Haskins and Justin Fields drafted.


RE: Undrafteds - bbm233 - 05-04-2021

(05-04-2021, 11:54 AM)norcard10 Wrote:  You think Jameis Winston would have been top pick if he had gone here?

No, I think he would have been kicked off the team.


RE: Undrafteds - BostonCard - 05-04-2021

You all are getting trolled by a guy with 5 posts to his (or her) name, four of which are in this thread. All posters have to start somewhere, and I would be happy to see norcard build a reputation as a good faith poster, but until then, caveat emptor on posters without much a track record.

BC


RE: Undrafteds - norcard10 - 05-04-2021

(05-04-2021, 03:57 PM)BostonCard Wrote:  You all are getting trolled by a guy with 5 posts to his (or her) name, four of which are in this thread. All posters have to start somewhere, and I would be happy to see norcard build a reputation as a good faith poster, but until then, caveat emptor on posters without much a track record.

BC

Not a troll, but a counter balance.  And I lost my password to a previous account. I was around this board when people proclaimed they were disappointed in CMac skipping the bowl game and that they would never see him as a true Stanford player. I feel like posters should be grateful for the players that have come and not try to second guess their decisions given what have been repeated well-deserved gripes with this coaching staff. While I might question why they might have come here given the state of the program, I respect them.

And yea, better things to do than troll a Stanford football forum of all things. You want a photo of my LSJU diploma too?

(05-04-2021, 03:27 PM)bbm233 Wrote:  
(05-04-2021, 11:54 AM)norcard10 Wrote:  You think Jameis Winston would have been top pick if he had gone here?

No, I think he would have been kicked off the team.

Doubtful, he was valedictorian of his high school with no disciplinary actions and earned admittance here.  More likely, he was a victim of surroundings.


RE: Undrafteds - BostonCard - 05-04-2021

Since 2000, a period that includes several dreadful years, Stanford has had 81 players drafted (74 through the 2019 draft, 2 in the 2020 draft and 5 this year).  As of last year, that was good 19th among Div IA schools, and second in the Pac-12 behind only USC.

https://www.ncaa.com/news/football/article/2020-04-27/college-football-teams-most-nfl-draft-picks-2000

Again, that included some god awful teams between 2002 and 2008, so if you were to look at only the Shaw tenure, we'd be higher on a relative basis.

BC


RE: Undrafteds - Goose - 05-04-2021

(05-04-2021, 03:27 PM)norcard10 Wrote:  If I'm a 5 star QB or OL recruit, why on earth would I go to Stanford vs OU, Bama, Ohio State based on potential vs result?  Education not withstanding.  Again at that point, it's a trade-off between a 40 year decision / degree vs much higher earning potential.
Yes, that is absolutely true and probably always will be. If education is not withstanding, go to tOSU or Oklahoma in a heartbeat. Shaw likes to relate the story about a 5* that he was recruiting who told him he couldn't go to Stanford because the team just wasn't good enough to demonstrate his talents. Shaw said that in his heart he had to agree and wanted to ensure that was never true again. I think that is the bar for Shaw. It will always be true that if education is not a factor, a great athlete will be better off at a football factory. Stanford can aspire to be good enough that if you play there you will not be fatally harmed by you team not being any good.
IMHO right now we are marginal because of our defense. That is the issue. Mills certainly got enough notice. So did Little. The simple fact is (IMHO)that Sarell didn't ever demonstrate the ability to move people reliably. He played too upright. Great for pass blocking, not so good for run blocking. Obviously I am not an expert, but that is what I saw. If you are good at Stanford, you will get noticed. However, it helps to win some games too. To do that, we need a better defense.


RE: Undrafteds - norcard10 - 05-04-2021

(05-04-2021, 05:06 PM)Goose Wrote:  
(05-04-2021, 03:27 PM)norcard10 Wrote:  If I'm a 5 star QB or OL recruit, why on earth would I go to Stanford vs OU, Bama, Ohio State based on potential vs result?  Education not withstanding.  Again at that point, it's a trade-off between a 40 year decision / degree vs much higher earning potential.
Yes, that is absolutely true and probably always will be. If education is not withstanding, go to tOSU or Oklahoma in a heartbeat. Shaw likes to relate the story about a 5* that he was recruiting who told him he couldn't go to Stanford because the team just wasn't good enough to demonstrate his talents. Shaw said that in his heart he had to agree and wanted to ensure that was never true again. I think that is the bar for Shaw. It will always be true that if education is not a factor, a great athlete will be better off at a football factory. Stanford can aspire to be good enough that if you play there you will not be fatally harmed by you team not being any good.
IMHO right now we are marginal because of our defense. That is the issue. Mills certainly got enough notice. So did Little. The simple fact is (IMHO)that Sarell didn't ever demonstrate the ability to move people reliably. He played too upright. Great for pass blocking, not so good for run blocking. Obviously I am not an expert, but that is what I saw. If you are good at Stanford, you will get noticed. However, it helps to win some games too. To do that, we need a better defense.

Winning in the end cures all.  We're certainly performing extremely well when it comes to tight ends developing.  I just wish the same for Tavishaw when it comes to QBs and OLs going forward.  As long as we don't see a redux of deer in headlights Jack West sophomore year vs UCLA for any second year QB, that'll be progress.


RE: Undrafteds - lex24 - 05-04-2021

(05-04-2021, 06:27 PM)norcard10 Wrote:  
(05-04-2021, 05:06 PM)Goose Wrote:  
(05-04-2021, 03:27 PM)norcard10 Wrote:  If I'm a 5 star QB or OL recruit, why on earth would I go to Stanford vs OU, Bama, Ohio State based on potential vs result?  Education not withstanding.  Again at that point, it's a trade-off between a 40 year decision / degree vs much higher earning potential.
Yes, that is absolutely true and probably always will be. If education is not withstanding, go to tOSU or Oklahoma in a heartbeat. Shaw likes to relate the story about a 5* that he was recruiting who told him he couldn't go to Stanford because the team just wasn't good enough to demonstrate his talents. Shaw said that in his heart he had to agree and wanted to ensure that was never true again. I think that is the bar for Shaw. It will always be true that if education is not a factor, a great athlete will be better off at a football factory. Stanford can aspire to be good enough that if you play there you will not be fatally harmed by you team not being any good.
IMHO right now we are marginal because of our defense. That is the issue. Mills certainly got enough notice. So did Little. The simple fact is (IMHO)that Sarell didn't ever demonstrate the ability to move people reliably. He played too upright. Great for pass blocking, not so good for run blocking. Obviously I am not an expert, but that is what I saw. If you are good at Stanford, you will get noticed. However, it helps to win some games too. To do that, we need a better defense.

Winning in the end cures all.  We're certainly performing extremely well when it comes to tight ends developing.  I just wish the same for Tavishaw when it comes to QBs and OLs going forward.  As long as we don't see a redux of deer in headlights Jack West sophomore year vs UCLA for any second year QB, that'll be progress.


 This staff has done a fairly good job developing QB’s.


RE: Undrafteds - BostonCard - 05-04-2021

It might also be instructive to look at some of the QB's we recruited but didn't get (not all were offered).  Sam and others can probably add to this list:

JT Daniels: Started at USC as a freshman, got injured as a sophomore and was out for the year.  He transferred to Georgia in 2020 as it was clear he wouldn't beat out Slovis.  He competed against two other QBs, and lost out, but became the stareter after Mathis was pulled and Bennet got injured.  He started the last four games, played well and is expected to be the starter in 2021.

Ricky Town: Committed to Alabama over Stanford, then pulled his Alabama commitment and committed to USC, where he enrolled early.  By the fall of his freshman year, he had already transferred to Arkansas, but never attempts a pass.  In his redshirt sophomore year, he transfers to Pitt. In his entire collegiate career, he has one pass attempt.

Josh Rosen: Not offered, but many suggested we should have.  Enrolled at UCLA, where he is a starter in 2015 and 2017 (missing out most of 2016 due to injury).  Drafted in the first round (10th overall) by Arizona, but is an NFL bust.  Last I heard he was on the Tampa Bay practice squad.

Ryan Hilinski: Last QB we were beaten by South Carolina for.  Started 11 games as a freshman in 2019 when Jake Bentley was injured.  Named a backup last year and entered the transfer portal, and has enrolled in Northwestern.

I'm sure others will add to that list, but looking at it, it isn't clear that QB's who might have come to Stanford but didn't developed any better than those who did.

BC


RE: Undrafteds - Skiddy - 05-04-2021

Has anybody posted about this yet? Don't think I've seen a mention anywhere on the board.




What a relief. Hope KJ's the next if his heart is still set on exploring a career on the field. He's worked too hard for this to be denied a chance.

And no, Stanford hasn't recently done a good job of developing its qbs. To argue otherwise is akin to saying Kentucky has done a good job of grooming its basketball players these couple of years just because they're still getting drafted, or are projected to be drafted, sparingly. Denying this is dangerous, as Stanford football doesn't have nearly the same capital or room for error that John Calipari has at UK basketball.


RE: Undrafteds - JustAnotherFan - 05-05-2021

(05-04-2021, 11:41 PM)Skiddy Wrote:  Has anybody posted about this yet? Don't think I've seen a mention anywhere on the board.

https://twitter.com/StanfordFball/status/1388653149536194562?s=20

What a relief. Hope KJ's the next if his heart is still set on exploring a career on the field. He's worked too hard for this to be denied a chance.

And no, Stanford hasn't recently done a good job of developing its qbs. To argue otherwise is akin to saying Kentucky has done a good job of grooming its basketball players these couple of years just because they're still getting drafted, or are projected to be drafted, sparingly. Denying this is dangerous, as Stanford football doesn't have nearly the same capital or room for error that John Calipari has at UK basketball.




RE: Undrafteds - Mick - 05-05-2021

(05-04-2021, 11:28 PM)BostonCard Wrote:  Josh Rosen: Not offered, but many suggested we should have.  Enrolled at UCLA, where he is a starter in 2015 and 2017 (missing out most of 2016 due to injury).  Drafted in the first round (10th overall) by Arizona, but is an NFL bust.  Last I heard he was on the Tampa Bay practice squad.

Rosen's currently listed as #2 on the 49ers depth chart, and will be #3 once Trey Lance has arrived. 
https://www.49ers.com/team/depth-chart
https://uclabruins.com/sports/football/roster/josh-rosen/5497

He desperately wanted to come to Stanford, both of his parents are college professors.  Mom went to Princeton.  On his UCLA bio, he listed Andrew Luck as the quarterback he admired the most.  Problem was, he was a gigantic head case.  He did an interview his senior year in high school which found its way to Youtube (since taken down) that can best be described as jaw-dropping.  Overwhelming ego, convinced he knew more than his coaches, he was a gigantic pain in Coach Mora's neck at UCLA.  Shaw didn't offer because he knew Rosen was a head case, and nothing he's done in the NFL indicates otherwise.

https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/set-up-to-fail--the-josh-rosen-story


RE: Undrafteds - BobK - 05-05-2021

Rosen lived close to Mora in HS and knew the family.