David Shaw among top play callers in the Pac 12

David Shaw among top play callers in the Pac 12 - Printable Version

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David Shaw among top play callers in the Pac 12 - CardinalSagehen - 04-08-2022

This is according to the consensus opinion of “a couple defensive coordinators” that were polled, as well as a data-crunching service called Matrix Analytical that has attempted to analyze all play calls since 2010, controlling for talent levels.

https://johncanzano.substack.com/p/canzano-calling-out-the-best-play?s=r

I’m not completely buying this, but it’s a good reminder that the answers are not simple.

Sorry if any heads promptly explode upon reading the article…

RE: David Shaw among top play callers in the Pac 12 - TrumpCard - 04-08-2022

Hahahahahaha

RE: David Shaw among top play callers in the Pac 12 - cardcrimson - 04-08-2022

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMY9Yq0_6pU

RE: David Shaw among top play callers in the Pac 12 - CompSci87 - 04-08-2022

We all know teejers would do it so much better.

RE: David Shaw among top play callers in the Pac 12 - Phogge - 04-08-2022

Fabulous call in the Fiasco Bowl. Take out your once in a generation QB who was leading the team to six points and put in a kicker. How did that work out?

RE: David Shaw among top play callers in the Pac 12 - JohnR34231 - 04-09-2022

(04-08-2022, 07:08 PM)CardinalSagehen Wrote: This is according to the consensus opinion of “a couple defensive coordinators” that were polled, as well as a data-crunching service called Matrix Analytical that has attempted to analyze all play calls since 2010, controlling for talent levels.

https://johncanzano.substack.com/p/canzano-calling-out-the-best-play?s=r

I’m not completely buying this, but it’s a good reminder that the answers are not simple.

Sorry if any heads promptly explode upon reading the article…

As my father-in-law used to say, that's why they have horse races. People have differences of opinion.
While I wouldn't classify Shaw as a great play-caller, I have never thought he was as bad as his detractors on this board never tire of complaining.

RE: David Shaw among top play callers in the Pac 12 - winflop - 04-09-2022

(04-08-2022, 07:08 PM)CardinalSagehen Wrote: This is according to the consensus opinion of “a couple defensive coordinators” that were polled, as well as a data-crunching service called Matrix Analytical that has attempted to analyze all play calls since 2010, controlling for talent levels.

https://johncanzano.substack.com/p/canzano-calling-out-the-best-play?s=r

I’m not completely buying this, but it’s a good reminder that the answers are not simple.

Sorry if any heads promptly explode upon reading the article…

I'd definitely rank him in the top 12 among current coaches

RE: David Shaw among top play callers in the Pac 12 - Phogge - 04-09-2022

Yeah he's top 12, in the Pac 12.

RE: David Shaw among top play callers in the Pac 12 - cardcrimson - 04-09-2022

(04-08-2022, 09:31 PM)Phogge Wrote: Fabulous call in the Fiasco Bowl. Take out your once in a generation QB who was leading the team to six points and put in a kicker. How did that work out?

And then there's this.

1st & 10 at STAN 25
(2:40 - 4th) Kevin Hogan rush for 4 yards to the Stanf 29.
2nd & 6 at STAN 29
(2:15 - 4th) Ricky Seale rush for 4 yards to the Stanf 33.
3rd & 2 at STAN 33
(1:46 - 4th) Tyler Gaffney rush for 1 yard to the Stanf 34.
4th & 1 at STAN 34
(1:46 - 4th) Timeout STANFORD, clock 1:46.
4th & 1 at STAN 34
(1:46 - 4th) Timeout MICHIGAN ST, clock 1:46.
4th & 1 at STAN 34
(1:43 - 4th) Ryan Hewitt rush for no gain to the Stanf 34.

"Because it's what we do"

Brilliant, creative play calling when the Rose Bowl is on the line.

lex24 - lex24 - 04-09-2022

If any of you find a play caller that is perfect in your minds eye…. I don’t consider Shaw a great play caller by any stretch of the imagination. But the nature of fans is to remember the ones that failed…..

RE: lex24 - PAsportsfan - 04-09-2022

(04-09-2022, 07:44 AM)lex24 Wrote: If any of you find a play caller that is perfect in your minds eye…. I don’t consider Shaw a great play caller by any stretch of the imagination. But the nature of fans is to remember the ones that failed…..

Fiasco Bowl

Keyboard drop

RE: lex24 - Red80 - 04-09-2022

(04-09-2022, 07:44 AM)lex24 Wrote: If any of you find a play caller that is perfect in your minds eye…. I don’t consider Shaw a great play caller by any stretch of the imagination. But the nature of fans is to remember the ones that failed…..

It's remarkable how much better play calling gets when you have top notch talent, especially on the OL.

Also, I recall back in 2018 when Stanford's OL was wiped out with a series of injuries, and Bryce Love was maybe 75% of his '17 self. Stanford couldn't run the football.

Yet somehow the team managed to go 8-4 with a team that finished 11th in the league in rushing.

There were a few TV commentators who praised Shaw's ability to adjust on the fly, including Yogi Roth, who said that it proved that Shaw was one of the Top 5 coaches in football, pro or college.

I had to chuckle at Roth's opinion of Shaw, almost as much as I laughed at the majority of the Stanford fans who whined about his play calling that year, and years since.

When it comes to play calling, most fans don't have a clue. In the words of former NFL coach Jim Mora, " You don't know, you don't know, you don't know..."

RE: David Shaw among top play callers in the Pac 12 - Phogge - 04-09-2022

Shaw was going to post a rebuttal but he delayed and is getting a five yard penalty.

RE: David Shaw among top play callers in the Pac 12 - BostonCard - 04-09-2022

https://youtu.be/NHipzGL4dwM

I was disappointed he didn’t work in “diddly poo” into that rant. As in” you guys don’t know diddly poo”.

BC

RE: David Shaw among top play callers in the Pac 12 - CardinalSagehen - 04-09-2022

Would it please anyone to know that Shaw's Cardinal opted to GO FOR IT on 4th-and-1 at White's 38 yard-line in today's Spring Game? (Never mind that punting was practiced before the game and not allowed during.)

It was a naked bootleg for Patu. The WR was wide open in the flat, but Patu threw it behind him. White had no idea what was coming!

RE: David Shaw among top play callers in the Pac 12 - winflop - 04-09-2022

(04-09-2022, 04:10 PM)CardinalSagehen Wrote: Would it please anyone to know that Shaw's Cardinal opted to GO FOR IT on 4th-and-1 at White's 38 yard-line in today's Spring Game? (Never mind that punting was practiced before the game and not allowed during.)

It was a naked bootleg for Patu. The WR was wide open in the flat, but Patu threw it behind him. White had no idea what was coming!

It’s a freakin scrimmage C’MON MAN!!!

RE: David Shaw among top play callers in the Pac 12 - BostonCard - 04-09-2022

(04-09-2022, 05:12 PM)winflop Wrote:
(04-09-2022, 04:10 PM)CardinalSagehen Wrote: Would it please anyone to know that Shaw's Cardinal opted to GO FOR IT on 4th-and-1 at White's 38 yard-line in today's Spring Game? (Never mind that punting was practiced before the game and not allowed during.)

It was a naked bootleg for Patu. The WR was wide open in the flat, but Patu threw it behind him. White had no idea what was coming!

It’s a freakin scrimmage C’MON MAN!!!

Yeah, but we didn’t waste a time out or get a delay of game getting the play in.

BC

RE: David Shaw among top play callers in the Pac 12 - teejers1 - 04-11-2022

(04-08-2022, 08:21 PM)CompSci87 Wrote: We all know teejers would do it so much better.

Way back in the day, the authors of the Bruin fan zone (Bruinzone?) put forth a transcript of an apocryphal meeting amongst Pac 10 coaches. The meeting, led by Lute and Monty, was called to identify who would throw games to ensure Lavin was retained at UCLA. It was hilarious.
That transcription immediately came to mind when I read about the D coaches who praised Shaw's offensive game-calling prowess.

RE: David Shaw among top play callers in the Pac 12 - msqueri - 04-11-2022

(04-11-2022, 09:07 AM)teejers1 Wrote:
(04-08-2022, 08:21 PM)CompSci87 Wrote: We all know teejers would do it so much better.

Way back in the day, the authors of the Bruin fan zone (Bruinzone?) put forth a transcript of an apocryphal meeting amongst Pac 10 coaches. The meeting, led by Lute and Monty, was called to identify who would throw games to ensure Lavin was retained at UCLA. It was hilarious.

That transcription immediately came to mind when I read about the D coaches who praised Shaw's offensive game-calling prowess.

This is too cynical. Was the same motivation at play for the coaches ranking Chip Kelly and Andy Ludwig? Sorry, too cynical and too much assumption of 3D chess as opposed to Occam's Razor: half of the teams in the conference have new play callers and Shaw being ranked second among the remaining five (UCLA, Utah, Oregon State, Arizona, Cal) is a combination of genuine esteem (which may lead to bias and not be all that insightful), name recognition, and the one eyed man being king in the land of the blind. Mileage can vary on how significant this ranking is, but coaches did not do it so that John Canzano's blog's obscure ranking of the top four playcallers among six options would venerate Shaw in a way more likely for him to keep his job. Come on, that's some kind of bank shot.

The interesting thing is that the ordinal ranking of coaches was the same in the poll of coaches and the Matrix Analytical ranking based on 25,000 data points from 2010-2021. Literally the exact same order of the top four other than Lincoln Riley (who the Matrix Analytical ranking included but the coaches did not). That's something to sit with and ponder. Those criticizing play calling should have some self-awareness that outside Lincoln Riley/Chip Kelly kind of coaches fans ALWAYS gripe at play calling and that doesn't necessarily mean a play caller is bad in the comparative sense of being worse than the competition.

Based on this evidence, I am inclined to believe that Shaw has a number of problems that rise above play calling. These two rankings, taken together, are suggestive that some other combination of factors (defense, player development, recruiting, etc.) are more salient than play calling as an explanation for Shaw's recent failures. I will acknowledge two caveats to that provisional observation. First, I don't know what Matrix Analytical is based on and can't comment on its quality as a metric. Second, the data set is supposedly over the 2010-2021 period, which arguably could make it more or less reliable as a metric (e.g., it's an extensive data set less likely to have sample size problems with somebody like Shaw, but it's also including a lot of data points that were based on an era of his coaching and the players he had to work with that are much less relevant to what he has and who he is in 2022).

RE: David Shaw among top play callers in the Pac 12 - SamuelMcF - 04-11-2022

(04-11-2022, 09:34 AM)msqueri Wrote: Based on this evidence, I am inclined to believe that Shaw has a number of problems that rise above play calling. These two rankings, taken together, are suggestive that some other combination of factors (defense, player development, recruiting, etc.) are more salient than play calling as an explanation for Shaw's recent failures. I will acknowledge two caveats to that provisional observation. First, I don't know what Matrix Analytical is based on and can't comment on its quality as a metric. Second, the data set is supposedly over the 2010-2021 period, which arguably could make it more or less reliable as a metric (e.g., it's an extensive data set less likely to have sample size problems with somebody like Shaw, but it's also including a lot of data points that were based on an era of his coaching and the players he had to work with that are much less relevant to what he has and who he is in 2022).

X's and O's vs. Jessies and Joes.

We used to have one, and now we have neither. The question of how we got to that point is an interesting one, though, and the mentioned "factors" (defense, player development, recruiting, etc) certainly all play a major part.