The Athletic Article by Stewart Mandel on Shaw's resignation - Printable Version
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The Athletic Article by Stewart Mandel on Shaw's resignation - Maple Leaf - 11-28-2022
David Shaw’s end at Stanford: Lost identity and complacency derail a golden run - The Athletic
Excellent in-depth article on Shaw's tenure. 70% of the article is information that has been discussed previously on the CardBoard.
The best quote was from Shannon Turley, where when Hardballs took over his statement to Turley was to build a bully. The article did focus on the impact that Turley had on the success of the program and the value that Mike Bloomgren brought and the impact of his departure (recruiting and oline smarts)
Statement from Muir in that the administration is open to taking approximately four transfers a year.
Raising money to build a 'football only' administration and training facility could be raised without difficulty, the problem is getting approval from Palo Alto and Santa Clara County from the planning/conditional use standpoint. Good luck with that one.
RE: The Athletic Article by Stewart Mandel on Shaw's resignation - winflop - 11-28-2022
(11-28-2022, 07:27 AM)Maple Leaf Wrote: David Shaw’s end at Stanford: Lost identity and complacency derail a golden run - The Athletic
Excellent in-depth article on Shaw's tenure. 70% of the article is information that has been discussed previously on the CardBoard.
The best quote was from Shannon Turley, where when Hardballs took over his statement to Turley was to build a bully. The article did focus on the impact that Turley had on the success of the program and the value that Mike Bloomgren brought and the impact of his departure (recruiting and oline smarts)
Statement from Muir in that the administration is open to taking approximately four transfers a year.
Raising money to build a 'football only' administration and training facility could be raised without difficulty, the problem is getting approval from Palo Alto and Santa Clara County from the planning/conditional use standpoint. Good luck with that one.
Well I guess four is better than none. But again, Muir needs to have a plan and quickly. Saying the administration is open isn't a plan. Say that "we will be able to accept up to four 'athletics' transfers per year" is having a plan. Sounds like maybe the transfers we've had wouldn't have counted against that plan since they were admitted on their own merits.
I'm not in favor of football only facilities. I'd rather they get facilities so that athletes (from any sport) don't have to go to Chipotle after practice, and if needed expand existing admin & training facilities to accomodate multiple sports. The concept of having interaction between both staff and athletes across sports is important and is something I've seen both coaches and athletes point to as a good thing.
The Turley comment doesn't surprise me. My contact inside the program described the last few years of practices both pre- and post-COVID as measurably and visilbly softer, and it clearly showed in the trenches the last few years
RE: The Athletic Article by Stewart Mandel on Shaw's resignation - lex24 - 11-28-2022
Interesting article. Particularly to me at least the discussion on Blomgren. I can recall how many wanted him out as OC.
As for Turley, again interesting. Seems like complaints from players and parents about his methods did him in. Perhaps goes to different mindset of those recruits? Or at least some of them.
Finally, average for transfers in PAC 12 is 26. That speaks volumes. Still not sure how Stanford deals with that.
RE: The Athletic Article by Stewart Mandel on Shaw's resignation - BostonCard - 11-28-2022
Quote:There was immediate speculation that Shaw was exiting before the school fired him, but The Athletic spoke with two top administrators in the days leading up to the BYU game and they insisted that the school’s all-time winningest coach was in no danger of being dismissed. Early last week, Shaw met with school president Marc Tessier-Lavigne and athletic director Bernard Muir about the future of the program. He came back from Thanksgiving and told them he’d decided to step down.
Oh, to have been a fly on the wall at that meeting...
BC
RE: The Athletic Article by Stewart Mandel on Shaw's resignation - winflop - 11-28-2022
(11-28-2022, 08:21 AM)lex24 Wrote: Finally, average for transfers in PAC 12 is 26. That speaks volumes. Still not sure how Stanford deals with that.
I can't imagine that level of transfers in would ever be supported. Take what we can get, and hire a coach who understands those limitations. Important thing is to have a plan - something we don't have as of today.
RE: The Athletic Article by Stewart Mandel on Shaw's resignation - slide - 11-28-2022
(11-28-2022, 07:57 AM)winflop Wrote:(11-28-2022, 07:27 AM)Maple Leaf Wrote: David Shaw’s end at Stanford: Lost identity and complacency derail a golden run - The Athletic
Excellent in-depth article on Shaw's tenure. 70% of the article is information that has been discussed previously on the CardBoard.
The best quote was from Shannon Turley, where when Hardballs took over his statement to Turley was to build a bully. The article did focus on the impact that Turley had on the success of the program and the value that Mike Bloomgren brought and the impact of his departure (recruiting and oline smarts)
Statement from Muir in that the administration is open to taking approximately four transfers a year.
Raising money to build a 'football only' administration and training facility could be raised without difficulty, the problem is getting approval from Palo Alto and Santa Clara County from the planning/conditional use standpoint. Good luck with that one.
Well I guess four is better than none. But again, Muir needs to have a plan and quickly. Saying the administration is open isn't a plan. Say that "we will be able to accept up to four 'athletics' transfers per year" is having a plan. Sounds like maybe the transfers we've had wouldn't have counted against that plan since they were admitted on their own merits.
I'm not in favor of football only facilities. I'd rather they get facilities so that athletes (from any sport) don't have to go to Chipotle after practice, and if needed expand existing admin & training facilities to accomodate multiple sports. The concept of having interaction between both staff and athletes across sports is important and is something I've seen both coaches and athletes point to as a good thing.
The Turley comment doesn't surprise me. My contact inside the program described the last few years of practices both pre- and post-COVID as measurably and visilbly softer, and it clearly showed in the trenches the last few years
like Captain Reynaud, I am just shocked, shocked at the Chipotle comments. given the numerous Eubanks and Stanford football twitters on how great the food is -- it's not?
our S&C (and accompanying PT) has been downhill ever since Turley's departure. that will be a key new hire.
RE: The Athletic Article by Stewart Mandel on Shaw's resignation - OutsiderFan - 11-28-2022
Man, this quote. I don't know how many times I and others on this board beat this drum, but it was quite a few.
Quote:“He doesn’t fire anyone, and everyone also thinks that they can’t get fired, so what you get is an environment (that is) the exact opposite of insanely competitive,” a former starting player said. “Then over time that becomes the norm, and you fall out of being the best.”
The #1 thing I took from Bill Walsh's teachings was the importance of having a standard of performance and holding people accountable to it. That means if they fail at what they are responsible for doing, they are replaced. If coaches aren't accountable, the players certainly won't be either.
Quote:Asked whether he or the university decided to terminate Turley’s employment, Shaw said, “Everyone from my position and above was involved.”
Just so amazing that the only guy Shaw fired was Turley, arguably the most important guy in the program. Granted, there were extenuating circumstances, but how hard did Shaw fight for Turley, really. So he doesn't make the tough decisions when in charge and doesn't fight very hard for his guys when the university pressures him. I would have said "he goes, I go." Shaw clearly didn't do that.
RE: The Athletic Article by Stewart Mandel on Shaw's resignation - BostonCard - 11-28-2022
It will be very interesting to see if Turley's success is replicated at Colorado (https://cubuffs.com/staff-directory/shannon-turley/980). Through two seasons, the results are hardly awe inspiring.
BC
RE: The Athletic Article by Stewart Mandel on Shaw's resignation - gailtate - 11-28-2022
(11-28-2022, 07:57 AM)winflop Wrote:(11-28-2022, 07:27 AM)Maple Leaf Wrote: David Shaw’s end at Stanford: Lost identity and complacency derail a golden run - The Athletic
Excellent in-depth article on Shaw's tenure. 70% of the article is information that has been discussed previously on the CardBoard.
The best quote was from Shannon Turley, where when Hardballs took over his statement to Turley was to build a bully. The article did focus on the impact that Turley had on the success of the program and the value that Mike Bloomgren brought and the impact of his departure (recruiting and oline smarts)
Statement from Muir in that the administration is open to taking approximately four transfers a year.
Raising money to build a 'football only' administration and training facility could be raised without difficulty, the problem is getting approval from Palo Alto and Santa Clara County from the planning/conditional use standpoint. Good luck with that one.
Well I guess four is better than none. But again, Muir needs to have a plan and quickly. Saying the administration is open isn't a plan. Say that "we will be able to accept up to four 'athletics' transfers per year" is having a plan. Sounds like maybe the transfers we've had wouldn't have counted against that plan since they were admitted on their own merits.
I'm not in favor of football only facilities. I'd rather they get facilities so that athletes (from any sport) don't have to go to Chipotle after practice, and if needed expand existing admin & training facilities to accomodate multiple sports. The concept of having interaction between both staff and athletes across sports is important and is something I've seen both coaches and athletes point to as a good thing.
The Turley comment doesn't surprise me. My contact inside the program described the last few years of practices both pre- and post-COVID as measurably and visilbly softer, and it clearly showed in the trenches the last few years
Wouldas and shouldas all over the place. Had Shaw stepped down right after the 2018 Sun Bowl, his legacy "coulda" been: never having a losing season, never having relinquished the Axe, and an even more remarkable winning percentage. Man, those final four years were killers. Hope the money was worth it. I lost all hope after the 2019 season and reading the coverage of former Chronicle writer Tom Fitzgerald's comments from NFL scouts' brutal assessments of players' strength and conditioning. They said the steady decline between the "Rose Bowl Era" teams toughness and the one that finished 4-8 in 2019 was unbelievable.
RE: The Athletic Article by Stewart Mandel on Shaw's resignation - OCcardinal - 11-28-2022
(11-28-2022, 08:21 AM)lex24 Wrote: Finally, average for transfers in PAC 12 is 26. That speaks volumes. Still not sure how Stanford deals with that.Net transfers is perhaps the more important figure. Lots of FB players are entering in the transfer portal (12 percent of FCS football players in 2021). However, an even higher percent (22%) of women's basketball players entered the portal in 2021. Tara is doing fine despite the lack of any transfers in this season because her transfers out are well below the average. (Tara and Stanford's WBB success are among several unique factors there though.)
If you look at our FB transfers last year, they were mostly running backs and defensive players so perhaps no surprise those were two particular areas where we struggled with depth this season. I'm sure Shaw would have welcomed at least 4 targeted transfers in those areas.
RE: The Athletic Article by Stewart Mandel on Shaw's resignation - OutsiderFan - 11-28-2022
On the topic of transfers, if Stanford is allowing 4-5 transfers per year for football, that would mean Stanford is open to allowing 1 transfer per 17-20 scholarship athletes that compose a team sport. Would basically mean all other sports get 1 transfer and football gets 4-5. If this is the case, Stanford can create scarcity for transfer openings much like it has scarcity for freshman admissions.
The real question is how will Stanford determine who can be admitted as a transfer? Is it going to require transfers to have been qualified for Stanford out of High School? Will college grades will be used to make transfer decisions, or some combination thereof? I mean there isn't going to be that large of a pool of players who were Stanford admit-able out of High School, who didn't apply to Stanford for one, and two, just like some athletes perform better than expected when they go up a level, some young adults may very well may prove themselves capable of Stanford-level school work in college that wasn't evident coming out of High school.
RE: The Athletic Article by Stewart Mandel on Shaw's resignation - BigJohn043 - 11-28-2022
(11-28-2022, 08:21 AM)lex24 Wrote: Interesting article. Particularly to me at least the discussion on Blomgren. I can recall how many wanted him out as OC.
As for Turley, again interesting. Seems like complaints from players and parents about his methods did him in. Perhaps goes to different mindset of those recruits? Or at least some of them.
Finally, average for transfers in PAC 12 is 26. That speaks volumes. Still not sure how Stanford deals with that.
The complaints were from underperformers who didn't want to work hard. Harbaugh would have never put up with that. Shaw obviously did....
RE: The Athletic Article by Stewart Mandel on Shaw's resignation - CowboyIndian - 11-28-2022
(11-28-2022, 10:53 AM)BigJohn043 Wrote: The complaints were from underperformers who didn't want to work hard. Harbaugh would have never put up with that. Shaw obviously did....
And you know this...how?
RE: The Athletic Article by Stewart Mandel on Shaw's resignation - Austroturf - 11-28-2022
(11-28-2022, 09:04 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Man, this quote. I don't know how many times I and others on this board beat this drum, but it was quite a few.
Quote:“He doesn’t fire anyone, and everyone also thinks that they can’t get fired, so what you get is an environment (that is) the exact opposite of insanely competitive,” a former starting player said. “Then over time that becomes the norm, and you fall out of being the best.”
Yes, I was also banging that drum ad infinitum. Shaw was often praised for his even-keeled demeanor and soft-spoken manner; but the flip side was a certain comfortable family-style culture that allowed performance standards to sag.
I never saw him get really mad, and that worried me from the start. Fierce competitors almost always get mad at some point and bare their teeth. Not Shaw. Always composed, always professional. This certainly was part of his allure and made him so universally admired and appreciated by players, colleagues and university administrators. But when there is no longer a culture of accountability, the bottom is near.
I suspect that only very few of his staff members will be retained (maybe some low-level staffers). And it will become quickly apparent that most of them will not manage to land positions anywhere near the kind they had at Stanford. That will be the ultimate indictment of the program and the lack of accountability that prevailed.
RE: The Athletic Article by Stewart Mandel on Shaw's resignation - Giants - 11-28-2022
(11-28-2022, 09:04 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Man, this quote. I don't know how many times I and others on this board beat this drum, but it was quite a few.
Quote:“He doesn’t fire anyone, and everyone also thinks that they can’t get fired, so what you get is an environment (that is) the exact opposite of insanely competitive,” a former starting player said. “Then over time that becomes the norm, and you fall out of being the best.”
The #1 thing I took from Bill Walsh's teachings was the importance of having a standard of performance and holding people accountable to it. That means if they fail at what they are responsible for doing, they are replaced. If coaches aren't accountable, the players certainly won't be either.
Quote:Asked whether he or the university decided to terminate Turley’s employment, Shaw said, “Everyone from my position and above was involved.”
Just so amazing that the only guy Shaw fired was Turley, arguably the most important guy in the program. Granted, there were extenuating circumstances, but how hard did Shaw fight for Turley, really. So he doesn't make the tough decisions when in charge and doesn't fight very hard for his guys when the university pressures him. I would have said "he goes, I go." Shaw clearly didn't do that.
Unless you know what the “extenuating circumstances” were, it is impossible to evaluate the personnel decision. Extenuating circumstances range from non-negotiable “he is gone “ to negotiable “let’s look at our options”. Since we will never know, I have to give Shaw the benefit of the doubt that he made the right call.
What I think we can agree upon is the Turley termination had a very significant impact on the program.
RE: The Athletic Article by Stewart Mandel on Shaw's resignation - Maple Leaf - 11-28-2022
(11-28-2022, 11:13 AM)Giants Wrote:(11-28-2022, 09:04 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Man, this quote. I don't know how many times I and others on this board beat this drum, but it was quite a few.
Quote:“He doesn’t fire anyone, and everyone also thinks that they can’t get fired, so what you get is an environment (that is) the exact opposite of insanely competitive,” a former starting player said. “Then over time that becomes the norm, and you fall out of being the best.”
The #1 thing I took from Bill Walsh's teachings was the importance of having a standard of performance and holding people accountable to it. That means if they fail at what they are responsible for doing, they are replaced. If coaches aren't accountable, the players certainly won't be either.
Quote:Asked whether he or the university decided to terminate Turley’s employment, Shaw said, “Everyone from my position and above was involved.”
Just so amazing that the only guy Shaw fired was Turley, arguably the most important guy in the program. Granted, there were extenuating circumstances, but how hard did Shaw fight for Turley, really. So he doesn't make the tough decisions when in charge and doesn't fight very hard for his guys when the university pressures him. I would have said "he goes, I go." Shaw clearly didn't do that.
Unless you know what the “extenuating circumstances” were, it is impossible to evaluate the personnel decision. Extenuating circumstances range from non-negotiable “he is gone “ to negotiable “let’s look at our options”. Since we will never know, I have to give Shaw the benefit of the doubt that he made the right call.
What I think we can agree upon is the Turley termination had a very significant impact on the program.
In addition to Turley's departure was the departure of the head athletic trainer who iirc joined a company specializing in making athletic braces and support devices. The trainer was highly respected for getting players rehabed in a short amount of time.
RE: The Athletic Article by Stewart Mandel on Shaw's resignation - Mick - 11-28-2022
(11-28-2022, 09:38 AM)OCcardinal Wrote: Net transfers is perhaps the more important figure. Lots of FB players are entering in the transfer portal (12 percent of FCS football players in 2021). However, an even higher percent (22%) of women's basketball players entered the portal in 2021. Tara is doing fine despite the lack of any transfers in this season because her transfers out are well below the average. (Tara and Stanford's WBB success are among several unique factors there though.)
If you look at our FB transfers last year, they were mostly running backs and defensive players so perhaps no surprise those were two particular areas where we struggled with depth this season. I'm sure Shaw would have welcomed at least 4 targeted transfers in those areas.
Instead of saying "4 or 6 or 8" transfers, how about reserving spots for incoming transfers to, say, 80% of the level of outgoing transfers? If you lose 5, you get 4 but if you lose 10, you get 8. If you lose 20, you get 16. All have to be academically qualified, of course.
RE: The Athletic Article by Stewart Mandel on Shaw's resignation - Mick - 11-28-2022
(11-28-2022, 11:38 AM)Maple Leaf Wrote:(11-28-2022, 11:13 AM)Giants Wrote:(11-28-2022, 09:04 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Man, this quote. I don't know how many times I and others on this board beat this drum, but it was quite a few.
Quote:“He doesn’t fire anyone, and everyone also thinks that they can’t get fired, so what you get is an environment (that is) the exact opposite of insanely competitive,” a former starting player said. “Then over time that becomes the norm, and you fall out of being the best.”
The #1 thing I took from Bill Walsh's teachings was the importance of having a standard of performance and holding people accountable to it. That means if they fail at what they are responsible for doing, they are replaced. If coaches aren't accountable, the players certainly won't be either.
Quote:Asked whether he or the university decided to terminate Turley’s employment, Shaw said, “Everyone from my position and above was involved.”
Just so amazing that the only guy Shaw fired was Turley, arguably the most important guy in the program. Granted, there were extenuating circumstances, but how hard did Shaw fight for Turley, really. So he doesn't make the tough decisions when in charge and doesn't fight very hard for his guys when the university pressures him. I would have said "he goes, I go." Shaw clearly didn't do that.
Unless you know what the “extenuating circumstances” were, it is impossible to evaluate the personnel decision. Extenuating circumstances range from non-negotiable “he is gone “ to negotiable “let’s look at our options”. Since we will never know, I have to give Shaw the benefit of the doubt that he made the right call.
What I think we can agree upon is the Turley termination had a very significant impact on the program.
In addition to Turley's departure was the departure of the head athletic trainer who iirc joined a company specializing in making athletic braces and support devices. The trainer was highly respected for getting players rehabed in a short amount of time.
I'm sorry, I can't give Shaw the benefit of the doubt on that call, particularly since his other calls were so egregiously bad and because Turley was ridiculously successful. This is particularly true at a place like Stanford, where students and teachers routinely exceed performance limits. And doubly particularly true when successful Stanford players comment on how easy it's become since the Turley days -- and the head athletic trainer days.
So...fine, you get rid of Turley. Who did you get to replace him? Someone on whose watch Stanford had a record numberof injuries. And as for offense at (arguably) Quarterback U., why did you think Tavita Pritchard would be a success?
If he has an "A" game, Bernard Muir better bring it with respect to the forthcoming football hires. I'd hate to see the Stanford football program follow the fortunes of the football program at that little jesuit school down south.
RE: The Athletic Article by Stewart Mandel on Shaw's resignation - Phogge - 11-28-2022
In my time as long as SC had the Bellarmine/SI pipeline they won. 8 years of Calgagno's just to get started.
Of course as soon as SI went coed and more selective we slid down the football rabbit hole.
RE: The Athletic Article by Stewart Mandel on Shaw's resignation - SamuelMcF - 11-28-2022
(11-28-2022, 11:13 AM)Giants Wrote:(11-28-2022, 09:04 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Man, this quote. I don't know how many times I and others on this board beat this drum, but it was quite a few.
Quote:“He doesn’t fire anyone, and everyone also thinks that they can’t get fired, so what you get is an environment (that is) the exact opposite of insanely competitive,” a former starting player said. “Then over time that becomes the norm, and you fall out of being the best.”
The #1 thing I took from Bill Walsh's teachings was the importance of having a standard of performance and holding people accountable to it. That means if they fail at what they are responsible for doing, they are replaced. If coaches aren't accountable, the players certainly won't be either.
Quote:Asked whether he or the university decided to terminate Turley’s employment, Shaw said, “Everyone from my position and above was involved.”
Just so amazing that the only guy Shaw fired was Turley, arguably the most important guy in the program. Granted, there were extenuating circumstances, but how hard did Shaw fight for Turley, really. So he doesn't make the tough decisions when in charge and doesn't fight very hard for his guys when the university pressures him. I would have said "he goes, I go." Shaw clearly didn't do that.
Unless you know what the “extenuating circumstances” were, it is impossible to evaluate the personnel decision. Extenuating circumstances range from non-negotiable “he is gone “ to negotiable “let’s look at our options”. Since we will never know, I have to give Shaw the benefit of the doubt that he made the right call.
What I think we can agree upon is the Turley termination had a very significant impact on the program.
I do know what the "extenuating circumstances" were. Very much in the negotiable "let's look at our options" camp.
Shaw did not fight for Turley at all.