Outside Topic Fusion - Printable Version
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Fusion - BostonCard - 12-13-2022
https://www.wsj.com/articles/nuclear-fusion-energy-breakthrough-reported-by-scientists-at-u-s-lab-11670944595
After being 50 years away for over 100 years, fusion is here. Now we just need to go from making it net energy positive to making it financially self-sustainable.
BC
RE: Fusion - burger - 12-13-2022
(12-13-2022, 08:50 AM)BostonCard Wrote: https://www.wsj.com/articles/nuclear-fusion-energy-breakthrough-reported-by-scientists-at-u-s-lab-11670944595
After being 50 years away for over 100 years, fusion is here. Now we just need to go from making it net energy positive to making it financially self-sustainable.
BC
I didn't read the article, but the story is somewhat overblown. Even if there was net positive energy comparing the laser input and the heat released by the fuel, the efficiency of the lasers is only 1-2%. And if you use the heat generated to make steam and run a turbine, that's not very efficient either. So we're still 1 or 2 orders of magnitude of fusion energy away from this being close to viable.
It's definitely a positive development, but the media (as usual in science stories) is taking it too far.
Here's an article that's much less sanguine about the new developments: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2022/12/department-of-energy-nuclear-fusion-breakthrough-nif-livermore/672439/
RE: Fusion - Phogge - 12-13-2022
As a neophyte whose only brush with fusion was an interview where Dr. Teller got pissed at Mike Wallace and left the room only to be sweet talked by Ira Rosen into coming back to play his piano for us (on camera) what does this mean for USA power needs going forward?
RE: Fusion - burger - 12-13-2022
(12-13-2022, 09:35 AM)Phogge Wrote: As a neophyte whose only brush with fusion was an interview where Dr. Teller got pissed at Mike Wallace and left the room only to be sweet talked by Ira Rosen into coming back to play his piano for us (on camera) what does this mean for USA power needs going forward?
Nothing. Fusion-generated electricity won't be happening in the lifetimes of most of us here.
Also, I have to ask, what did Mike Wallace do to piss off Edward Teller?
RE: Fusion - Beeg_Dawg - 12-13-2022
(12-13-2022, 09:40 AM)burger Wrote:(12-13-2022, 09:35 AM)Phogge Wrote: As a neophyte whose only brush with fusion was an interview where Dr. Teller got pissed at Mike Wallace and left the room only to be sweet talked by Ira Rosen into coming back to play his piano for us (on camera) what does this mean for USA power needs going forward?
Nothing. Fusion-generated electricity won't be happening in the lifetimes of most of us here.
Also, I have to ask, what did Mike Wallace do to piss off Edward Teller?
Copy that. Even if technical issues could be overcome, the NIMBY gang that blocks discussion of nuclear power generation would have a new cause. I doubt many of us will see a measurable generating increase from nuke power in our life time, let alone fusion.
The world continues to out pace us on another front where we should have no competition.
RE: Fusion - Phogge - 12-13-2022
Teller wanted no questions about Oppy. After Mike’s third try Teller carefully removed his lav mic and left the room. We finished the next day. I have a bit of a tin ear but I believe Teller could really play the piano.
RE: Fusion - burger - 12-13-2022
(12-13-2022, 12:18 PM)Phogge Wrote: Teller wanted no questions about Oppy. After Mike’s third try Teller carefully removed his lav mic and left the room. We finished the next day. I have a bit of a tin ear but I believe Teller could really play the piano.
Interesting, thanks!
For those like me who didn't know the backstory on Teller and Oppenheimer, this article is good: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/the-curious-wavefunction/the-many-tragedies-of-edward-teller/
RE: Fusion - CTcard - 12-13-2022
(12-13-2022, 01:07 PM)burger Wrote: Interesting, thanks!
For those like me who didn't know the backstory on Teller and Oppenheimer, this article is good: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/the-curious-wavefunction/the-many-tragedies-of-edward-teller/
Interesting points in the article. I was struck by the author's last point about lasting versus fleeting fame.
In his later life, and still today, Teller is known by most who have heard of him for his nuclear weapons advocacy. However, a few hundred years from now much of that will be forgotten but materials chemists/physicists will still learn about the Jahn-Teller effect. A smaller, but lasting audience. (I wonder how many on this board know of it - probably more here than most sports boards.)
(12-13-2022, 09:09 AM)burger Wrote: I didn't read the article, but the story is somewhat overblown. Even if there was net positive energy comparing the laser input and the heat released by the fuel, the efficiency of the lasers is only 1-2%. And if you use the heat generated to make steam and run a turbine, that's not very efficient either. So we're still 1 or 2 orders of magnitude of fusion energy away from this being close to viable.
It's definitely a positive development, but the media (as usual in science stories) is taking it too far.
While a working fusion power plant is certainly far away, and indeed the media always over-sells the technology side of science stories, still this achievement is a little more significant that the simple fact of more energy out than put in by lasers might imply. The key is that once one gets more energy out than it took to fuse, one can "ignite" the plasma, a kind of chain reaction becomes possible. It's the same idea as going from negative feedback to positive feedback. While crossing the border might only be a percent change, it completely changes the downstream possibilities.
RE: Fusion - Leftcoast - 12-13-2022
I'm excited. I have friends that worked at Lawrence Livermore and was able to attend several "Friends and Family" open houses there. At one such event we toured the NIF center (probably 2004) and the site, though incomplete, was operational and very impressive from an engineering and precision manufacturing view. One of the scientists leading our tour group said her dream was to someday create a net-positive fusion reaction. I hope she was there to see it.
Regarding Edward Teller, I had a chance to hear him speak at Stanford my Freshman year at an open campus event. There were the normal protesters and interruptions but he gave a very good, if hawkish, talk covering his upbringing in pre-war Germany and Hungary, his science career, and his ardent support for the Reagan era Star Wars program. (Yeah, I'm that old)
Teller was a man who was energized by conflict and did not shy away from controversy. He was also EXTREMELY entertaining on that long ago evening. As an 18 year old getting to hear him talk in person and read about it the next day, I knew going to Stanford was a great choice.
RE: Fusion - jacket3ree - 12-13-2022
Hey man, fusion is here to stay.....
![[Image: jz12.jpg]](https://www.innerviews.org/inner/zawinul/jz12.jpg)
RE: Fusion - Mick - 12-13-2022
(12-13-2022, 06:29 PM)Leftcoast Wrote: Teller was a man who was energized by conflict and did not shy away from controversy. He was also EXTREMELY entertaining on that long ago evening. As an 18 year old getting to hear him talk in person and read about it the next day, I knew going to Stanford was a great choice.
Wish I could have gone to Stanford...while you were seeing Edward Teller, I went to see Al Franken in between his SNL stints. Painfully unfunny and not remotely entertaining...
RE: Fusion - BostonCard - 12-13-2022
[tweet]https://twitter.com/sdamico/status/1602407437427802112?s=20&t=gx2eTNR8qqBQsPeHIwaeng[/tweet]
BC
RE: Fusion - ADPinWDC - 12-13-2022
(12-13-2022, 08:50 AM)BostonCard Wrote: https://www.wsj.com/articles/nuclear-fusion-energy-breakthrough-reported-by-scientists-at-u-s-lab-11670944595
After being 50 years away for over 100 years, fusion is here. Now we just need to go from making it net energy positive to making it financially self-sustainable.
BC
CORRECT.
The physicists had to prove net energy positive beyond the chalk board.
But, a big laser ignition facility is NOT close to commercially feasible -- it's a large Govt Facility.