S2 cognition test (and how to read The Athletic) - Printable Version
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S2 cognition test (and how to read The Athletic) - cctop - 02-24-2023
There's an article in The Athletic today about how the S2 Cognition Test appears to be a better predictor of NFL success than the Wonderlic.
The Athletic article (paywalled):
https://theathletic.com/4226466/2023/02/24/nfl-quarterbacks-s2-cognition-test/
S2 website:
https://www.s2cognition.com/
The Athletic is totally worth the subscription price.
But if you don't subscribe, you can also use a NY Times subscription. Many public libraries will give you a free 3-day pass to the NY Times, including the San Francisco Public Library:
https://sfpl.libanswers.com/faq/166904
Summary of the article:
- the S2 measures processing speed, impulse control, spatial awareness, distraction control, and depth perception speed. Maybe more, but that's what's mentioned in the article.
- Brock Purdy scored high on it as did Drew Brees
- blinking takes 100-150 milliseconds. Top pro athletes can process info they saw for less than 16 milliseconds.
- the average human can keep track of 3.5 objects at a time. The average NFL safety can keep track of 6 objects.
- quarterbacks score highest on the S2 followed by safeties, linebackers, and cornerbacks
- the S2 test might also help with Alzheimer's diagnoses
Sakibomb25 - Sakibomb25 - 02-24-2023
Wait what do you mean you can use a NYTimes subscription?
RE: S2 cognition test (and how to read The Athletic) - JJJ - 02-24-2023
I have a subscription to The Athletic and got a “free” NYT subscription from it. :)
RE: Sakibomb25 - 82lsju - 02-24-2023
(02-24-2023, 04:06 PM)Sakibomb25 Wrote: Wait what do you mean you can use a NYTimes subscription?
they bought the Athletic and are doing some "free sample" cross-marketing to the two installed bases
RE: S2 cognition test (and how to read The Athletic) - Giants - 02-24-2023
(02-24-2023, 02:24 PM)cctop Wrote: There's an article in The Athletic today about how the S2 Cognition Test appears to be a better predictor of NFL success than the Wonderlic.
The Athletic article (paywalled):
https://theathletic.com/4226466/2023/02/24/nfl-quarterbacks-s2-cognition-test/
S2 website:
https://www.s2cognition.com/
The Athletic is totally worth the subscription price.
But if you don't subscribe, you can also use a NY Times subscription. Many public libraries will give you a free 3-day pass to the NY Times, including the San Francisco Public Library:
https://sfpl.libanswers.com/faq/166904
Summary of the article:
- the S2 measures processing speed, impulse control, spatial awareness, distraction control, and depth perception speed. Maybe more, but that's what's mentioned in the article.
- Brock Purdy scored high on it as did Drew Brees
- blinking takes 100-150 milliseconds. Top pro athletes can process info they saw for less than 16 milliseconds.
- the average human can keep track of 3.5 objects at a time. The average NFL safety can keep track of 6 objects.
- quarterbacks score highest on the S2 followed by safeties, linebackers, and cornerbacks
- the S2 test might also help with Alzheimer's diagnoses
It was one of the most interesting and enlightening articles I have ever read about sports. I have often wondered what separates elite professional athletes from other pros. Obviously, there are a number of reasons; however, this article provided another significant factor that must be considered. Had the test been available in the 70’s, I wonder what Joe Montana would have scored.
RE: Sakibomb25 - crackpot - 02-24-2023
(02-24-2023, 05:31 PM)82lsju Wrote:(02-24-2023, 04:06 PM)Sakibomb25 Wrote: Wait what do you mean you can use a NYTimes subscription?
they bought the Athletic and are doing some "free sample" cross-marketing to the two installed bases
Previously subscribed to The Athletic, NY Times, and Games. But with current subscription, get all three plus Cooking and Wirecutter for less money. Downside is that they deliver the hardcopy of the Sunday paper to my door.
RE: S2 cognition test (and how to read The Athletic) - Mick - 02-24-2023
Makes me wonder what Trey Lance's S2 score was. In another Athletic article, they compared Trey Lance's first three games with Brock Purdy's first three games and they were virtually idential, in terms of stats.
Also wonder why, if Purdy's S2 score was so terrific and it's such an important test, why did he fall to the last pick of the draft?
My guess is Lynchahan drafts another QB this year, if one with a high S2 score is available.
RE: S2 cognition test (and how to read The Athletic) - Giants - 02-24-2023
(02-24-2023, 07:01 PM)Mick Wrote: Makes me wonder what Trey Lance's S2 score was. In another Athletic article, they compared Trey Lance's first three games with Brock Purdy's first three games and they were virtually idential, in terms of stats.
Also wonder why, if Purdy's S2 score was so terrific and it's such an important test, why did he fall to the last pick of the draft?
My guess is Lynchahan drafts another QB this year, if one with a high S2 score is available.
Because some teams probably don’t understand the value of the data. I suspect the Niners subscribe to the service. Also, Lance “scored well” per the article.
RE: S2 cognition test (and how to read The Athletic) - OutsiderFan - 02-25-2023
It's always been obvious that some guys "see the game" or have an "intangible" ability that isn't captured by typical assessment measures. It makes tons of sense that a cognitive test like described in the article would take a lot of mystery out of being able to find who has "it" and who doesn't.
The fact Kyle Shanahan is not attending the NFL Combine can potentially be explained by the fact the Niners are using this cognitive test and getting more valuable insight from it than they do the "underwear olympics." They are seemingly placing more value on the video analysis and cognitive testing than how fast the players run, how high they jump, etc. Seems smart.
Before we heap too much praise on the Niners for taking Purdy and believing in him enough to put him on the roster as 3rd QB to avoid losing him sneaking him on the Practice Squad, they did pass on Purdy several times before taking him. IOW, the cognitive test may be revealing, but even the Niners were skeptical of Purdy's physical abilities. But who knows, were they to do it again, they might believe the cognitive test carries more weight and draft him higher.
I can't help but wonder if Stanford is using this test to assess who it offers scholarships, because this is exactly the kind of thing Stanford should be testing for in an "ahead of the curve" kind of way, not a Johnny come lately.
RE: S2 cognition test (and how to read The Athletic) - Mick - 02-25-2023
(02-25-2023, 06:52 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Before we heap too much praise on the Niners for taking Purdy and believing in him enough to put him on the roster as 3rd QB to avoid losing him sneaking him on the Practice Squad, they did pass on Purdy several times before taking him. IOW, the cognitive test may be revealing, but even the Niners were skeptical of Purdy's physical abilities. But who knows, were they to do it again, they might believe the cognitive test carries more weight and draft him higher.
I suspect that part of their calculus had to do with the fact that they didn't believe other teams would take Purdy. In terms of need, Purdy was the third QB, and I suspect they were more than a bit surprised that Purdy would lead the NFL in passer rating (100+ attempts). And the Niners needed everyone they took before Purdy; a very good starting guard in the 4th round, a super fast DB in the 5th round, a capable backup OL in the 6th round, yet another DL in the 7th round (and they needed it, based upon the performance of anyone-not-named-Bosa) and yet another DB. Purdy's measureables were mediocre, and I'm sure that Lynchahan were confident he'd fall out of the draft...but they didn't want to take chances on not being able to sign him as a UDFA. After all, they had two workable QBs.
(02-25-2023, 06:52 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: I can't help but wonder if Stanford is using this test to assess who it offers scholarships, because this is exactly the kind of thing Stanford should be testing for in an "ahead of the curve" kind of way, not a Johnny come lately.
"Beggars" and "choosers" leaps to mind... ;)
RE: S2 cognition test (and how to read The Athletic) - lex24 - 02-25-2023
(02-25-2023, 06:52 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: It's always been obvious that some guys "see the game" or have an "intangible" ability that isn't captured by typical assessment measures. It makes tons of sense that a cognitive test like described in the article would take a lot of mystery out of being able to find who has "it" and who doesn't.
The fact Kyle Shanahan is not attending the NFL Combine can potentially be explained by the fact the Niners are using this cognitive test and getting more valuable insight from it than they do the "underwear olympics." They are seemingly placing more value on the video analysis and cognitive testing than how fast the players run, how high they jump, etc. Seems smart.
Before we heap too much praise on the Niners for taking Purdy and believing in him enough to put him on the roster as 3rd QB to avoid losing him sneaking him on the Practice Squad, they did pass on Purdy several times before taking him. IOW, the cognitive test may be revealing, but even the Niners were skeptical of Purdy's physical abilities. But who knows, were they to do it again, they might believe the cognitive test carries more weight and draft him higher.
I can't help but wonder if Stanford is using this test to assess who it offers scholarships, because this is exactly the kind of thing Stanford should be testing for in an "ahead of the curve" kind of way, not a Johnny come lately.
Sure the cognitive matters. So does physical ability. Athleticism. I can’t stand the combine. It’s a meat market. But it “tests” different things.
You aren’t going to draft someone high solely on the cognitive. But it’s a good tool. When you have someone with both the cognitive and physical, you get your generational talent. Burrow being mentioned.
Love to see what Barry Bonds would score. Hitters have, I think about 1/4 of a second to determine if they are going to swing. Processing in that what pitch, location, speed, movement etc. Hitting is one of the more amazing skills in sports.
RE: S2 cognition test (and how to read The Athletic) - Mick - 02-25-2023
(02-25-2023, 08:51 AM)lex24 Wrote:(02-25-2023, 06:52 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: It's always been obvious that some guys "see the game" or have an "intangible" ability that isn't captured by typical assessment measures. It makes tons of sense that a cognitive test like described in the article would take a lot of mystery out of being able to find who has "it" and who doesn't.
The fact Kyle Shanahan is not attending the NFL Combine can potentially be explained by the fact the Niners are using this cognitive test and getting more valuable insight from it than they do the "underwear olympics." They are seemingly placing more value on the video analysis and cognitive testing than how fast the players run, how high they jump, etc. Seems smart.
Before we heap too much praise on the Niners for taking Purdy and believing in him enough to put him on the roster as 3rd QB to avoid losing him sneaking him on the Practice Squad, they did pass on Purdy several times before taking him. IOW, the cognitive test may be revealing, but even the Niners were skeptical of Purdy's physical abilities. But who knows, were they to do it again, they might believe the cognitive test carries more weight and draft him higher.
I can't help but wonder if Stanford is using this test to assess who it offers scholarships, because this is exactly the kind of thing Stanford should be testing for in an "ahead of the curve" kind of way, not a Johnny come lately.
Sure the cognitive matters. So does physical ability. Athleticism. I can’t stand the combine. It’s a meat market. But it “tests” different things.
You aren’t going to draft someone high solely on the cognitive. But it’s a good tool. When you have someone with both the cognitive and physical, you get your generational talent. Burrow being mentioned.
Love to see what Barry Bonds would score. Hitters have, I think about 1/4 of a second to determine if they are going to swing. Processing in that what pitch, location, speed, movement etc. Hitting is one of the more amazing skills in sports.
A little over 100 years ago, Babe Ruth took a series of similar tests at Columbia University's Psychology lab. The tests in these articles sound quite similar to the S2 tests, with similar measurements, including the 16/100ths of a second response time to light. There are spatial and other cognition tests, along with physical tests.
Here's What Happened When Psychologists Tested Babe Ruth (gizmodo.com)
FROM THE ARCHIVE Why Babe Ruth is the Greatest Home-Run Hitter (popsci.com)
This article references those tests and notes that Luis Pujols swung a bat faster than Ruth...albeit a 31 ounce bat, whereas Ruth's bat was 54 ounces.
Babe Ruth sees a psychologist (apa.org)
Scientists explored secrets behind Ruth’s epic 1921 season | Baseball Hall of Fame
Classics in the History of Psychology -- Fullerton (1921) (yorku.ca)
RE: S2 cognition test (and how to read The Athletic) - terry - 02-25-2023
(02-25-2023, 06:52 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: I can't help but wonder if Stanford is using this test to assess who it offers scholarships, because this is exactly the kind of thing Stanford should be testing for in an "ahead of the curve" kind of way, not a Johnny come lately.
I wonder whether giving an S2 test to a recruit would violate the NCAA's rule against tryouts. Here's the general rule. I haven't read all of the exceptions --
Bylaw 13.11.1 -- A member institution, on its campus or elsewhere, shall not conduct (or have conducted on its behalf) any physical activity (e.g., practice session or test/tryout) at which one or more prospective student-athletes (as defined in Bylaws 13.11.1.1 and 13.11.1.2) reveal, demonstrate or display their athletics abilities in any sport except as provided in Bylaws 13.11.2 and 13.11.3. . . .
RE: S2 cognition test (and how to read The Athletic) - lex24 - 02-25-2023
(02-25-2023, 11:06 AM)terry Wrote:(02-25-2023, 06:52 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: I can't help but wonder if Stanford is using this test to assess who it offers scholarships, because this is exactly the kind of thing Stanford should be testing for in an "ahead of the curve" kind of way, not a Johnny come lately.
I wonder whether giving an S2 test to a recruit would violate the NCAA's rule against tryouts. Here's the general rule. I haven't read all of the exceptions --
Bylaw 13.11.1 -- A member institution, on its campus or elsewhere, shall not conduct (or have conducted on its behalf) any physical activity (e.g., practice session or test/tryout) at which one or more prospective student-athletes (as defined in Bylaws 13.11.1.1 and 13.11.1.2) reveal, demonstrate or display their athletics abilities in any sport except as provided in Bylaws 13.11.2 and 13.11.3. . . .
Nice find. Thought it probably would be some kind of violation. My reading of that bylaw is that it definitely would be a violation. Hopefully SC will get caught…..
RE: S2 cognition test (and how to read The Athletic) - 82lsju - 02-25-2023
(02-25-2023, 11:06 AM)terry Wrote:(02-25-2023, 06:52 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: I can't help but wonder if Stanford is using this test to assess who it offers scholarships, because this is exactly the kind of thing Stanford should be testing for in an "ahead of the curve" kind of way, not a Johnny come lately.
I wonder whether giving an S2 test to a recruit would violate the NCAA's rule against tryouts. Here's the general rule. I haven't read all of the exceptions --
Bylaw 13.11.1 -- A member institution, on its campus or elsewhere, shall not conduct (or have conducted on its behalf) any physical activity (e.g., practice session or test/tryout) at which one or more prospective student-athletes (as defined in Bylaws 13.11.1.1 and 13.11.1.2) reveal, demonstrate or display their athletics abilities in any sport except as provided in Bylaws 13.11.2 and 13.11.3. . . .
at least some high school players appear to have already taken the test, they may have paid for it themselves, from the original Athletic article
Quote:He hinted that the quarterback whom many believe will be the first player drafted had an impressive score.
“I do have a feeling that a quarterback from Alabama that we have tested every year since he was in 10th grade may end up sharing his results publicly because he actually owns those results and the NFL does not,” Ally said.
The S2 website talks about using the results as not just an evaluation tool but also a training tool, most of their examples and testimonials are from baseball.
RE: S2 cognition test (and how to read The Athletic) - martyup - 02-25-2023
(02-25-2023, 11:15 AM)lex24 Wrote:(02-25-2023, 11:06 AM)terry Wrote:(02-25-2023, 06:52 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: I can't help but wonder if Stanford is using this test to assess who it offers scholarships, because this is exactly the kind of thing Stanford should be testing for in an "ahead of the curve" kind of way, not a Johnny come lately.
I wonder whether giving an S2 test to a recruit would violate the NCAA's rule against tryouts. Here's the general rule. I haven't read all of the exceptions --
Bylaw 13.11.1 -- A member institution, on its campus or elsewhere, shall not conduct (or have conducted on its behalf) any physical activity (e.g., practice session or test/tryout) at which one or more prospective student-athletes (as defined in Bylaws 13.11.1.1 and 13.11.1.2) reveal, demonstrate or display their athletics abilities in any sport except as provided in Bylaws 13.11.2 and 13.11.3. . . .
Nice find. Thought it probably would be some kind of violation. My reading of that bylaw is that it definitely would be a violation. Hopefully SC will get caught…..
All of the top recruits attend football summer camps. If the test were administered at the camp it might get around this rule.
I'd like to see S2 tests on professional bull riders. They have to make nano second decisions to avoid getting out of position on a bull and bucked off (or worse). The best of the riders seem to react quicker than the rest.
RE: S2 cognition test (and how to read The Athletic) - BostonCard - 02-25-2023
(02-25-2023, 09:24 AM)Mick Wrote: This article references those tests and notes that Luis Pujols swung a bat faster than Ruth...albeit a 31 ounce bat, whereas Ruth's bat was 54 ounces.
Albert’s lesser known brother?
BC
RE: S2 cognition test (and how to read The Athletic) - Mick - 02-25-2023
(02-25-2023, 07:18 PM)BostonCard Wrote:(02-25-2023, 09:24 AM)Mick Wrote: This article references those tests and notes that Luis Pujols swung a bat faster than Ruth...albeit a 31 ounce bat, whereas Ruth's bat was 54 ounces.
Albert’s lesser known brother?
BC
Former catcher for the Astros. Echo stuck in my brain from when I was a kid. Luis Pujols was so bad at baseball, he had almost twice the negative WAR that Mario Mendoza of the famed "Mendoza line" had (-5.2 WAR to -2.7 WAR).
Luis Pujols Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More | Baseball-Reference.com