Outside Topic Caitlin Clark: Angel Reese should not be criticized for gestures at title game

Outside Topic Caitlin Clark: Angel Reese should not be criticized for gestures at title game - Printable Version

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Caitlin Clark: Angel Reese should not be criticized for gestures at title game - BostonCard - 04-04-2023

Iowa's Caitlin Clark says only LSU should visit White House (espn.com)

Interesting (and very gracious) comments from Clark. On the Reese controversy:

Quote:"I don't think Angel should be criticized at all," said Clark, who had made the same gesture in the regional final. "I'm just one that competes, and she competed. I think everybody knew there was going to be a little trash talk in the entire tournament. It's not just me and Angel.

and some interesting stuff about going to the White House (or not). I'm willing to cut Clark and Reese a fair bit more slack. Yeah, I wish that the taunting/trash talking were less a part of the game, but a bit like the way that Mark Madsen was a ferocious competitor (even if he wasn't a trash talker to my knowledge) on the court and then a thoughtful and gracious person off it, I think Clark articulates that the competitive persona on the court is different from how one is off it.

BC

Caitlin Clark: Angel Reese should not be criticized for gestures at title game - cctop - 04-05-2023

Caitlin Clark and the Iowa coach Lisa Bluder both come off as gracious in their loss in this article from The Athletic:

https://theathletic.com/4380967/2023/04/04/caitlin-clark-angel-reese-white-house-response/?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20230405&instance_id=89449&nl=the-morning&regi_id=18676147&segment_id=129623&te=1&user_id=3ae97da75ef05212fc8508bbdfa93280

Caitlin Clark is a competitor. She talks trash too, she respects Reese, and she thinks LSU should not have to share a trip to the White House with Iowa.

I think that Athletic link might be open to everyone to read, but if not here are links to the ESPN videos referenced:

Clark: "I don't think Angel should be criticized at all."
https://twitter.com/espn/status/1643311621861949441?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1643311621861949441%7Ctwgr%5E0da3ce11c85d621ff3e9738bcda4eb7a33da3025%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ftheathletic.com%2F4380967%2F2023%2F04%2F04%2Fcaitlin-clark-angel-reese-white-house-response%2F

Clark: "I don't think runner-ups usually go to the White House."
https://twitter.com/espn/status/1643315452209414145?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1643315452209414145%7Ctwgr%5E0da3ce11c85d621ff3e9738bcda4eb7a33da3025%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ftheathletic.com%2F4380967%2F2023%2F04%2F04%2Fcaitlin-clark-angel-reese-white-house-response%2F

RE: Caitlin Clark: Angel Reese should not be criticized for gestures at title game - BostonCard - 04-05-2023

I had posted much the same in the WBB tourney thread, but moved it here. I can merge the threads, or, if there is a lot of interest in Clark's comments we can keep it separate.

BC

RE: Caitlin Clark: Angel Reese should not be criticized for gestures at title game - Softball Fan - 04-05-2023

I thought Clark's remarks about Reese and LSU as a team were gracious. However I disagree with Clark that taunting, insults, and trash talk should be part of the game. In one interview Clark said it's done in the men's game so it should be acceptable in the women's game. IMO a bad trait in the men's game doesn't make it right or mean it should be transferred to the women's game.

In one article I read a local Iowa food bank was planning to pay NIL to Clark for representing their project. Instead Clark did it for free. I like that.

RE: Caitlin Clark: Angel Reese should not be criticized for gestures at title game - BostonCard - 04-05-2023

I share your preference, but I'm also not sure what one would do about it. Asking for refs to, for example, call a technical foul for behavior such as Reese's seems heavy handed and would lead to inconsistent enforcement (for example, how many times have people here called for Mulky to get called for a technical for walking onto the course, and, on the other end, how many people were upset that Clark was handed a technical for, I think, DoG). At this point, it is a bit like complaining about the wind where I live.

Yeah, I wish that the kids would "get off my lawn", but I'm not going to let it get in the way of enjoying the game. And, first Clark, and then Reese, had a hell of a game.

BC

RE: Caitlin Clark: Angel Reese should not be criticized for gestures at title game - fullmetal - 04-05-2023

(04-05-2023, 12:29 PM)Softball Fan Wrote: IMO a bad trait in the men's game doesn't make it right or mean it should be transferred to the women's game.

Excellent point.

RE: Caitlin Clark: Angel Reese should not be criticized for gestures at title game - jacket3ree - 04-05-2023

Speaking of traits from the men's game, were any of you upset when Arthur Lee made the choke sign as Tyson Wheeler missed those clutch free throws? Wa Po

A thousand years ago and Art wrote Wheeler an apology, but this stuff IS part of the game. Steph and Klay "keep receipts" for motivation.

I saw some Arthur Lee/Steph/Klay echoes in Angel Reese. She's a baller and I don't see the problem. It doesn't mean she is a bad person or some of the other invectives thrown around.

RE: Caitlin Clark: Angel Reese should not be criticized for gestures at title game - 81alum - 04-05-2023

(04-05-2023, 12:29 PM)Softball Fan Wrote: I thought Clark's remarks about Reese and LSU as a team were gracious. However I disagree with Clark that taunting, insults, and trash talk should be part of the game. In one interview Clark said it's done in the men's game so it should be acceptable in the women's game. IMO a bad trait in the men's game doesn't make it right or mean it should be transferred to the women's game.

In one article I read a local Iowa food bank was planning to pay NIL to Clark for representing their project. Instead Clark did it for free. I like that.

Excellent observations.

There have occasionally been male athletes who have committed armed robbery, rape, and other hideous offenses, and obviously we don't think that the women's game needs more of that to be fully "equal" to the men. Bad sportsmanship is not of the same magnitude as those kinds of offenses, but the principle is the same. Imitation is NOT the highest form of flattery here.

What gets lost in a lot of this is that there are many fans who watch the women's game because it is different from the men's. At least that is ME and I presume there are others like me.

If the women's game is seeking to be just like the men's, then it will be merely an inferior version. But if it seeks to be its own distinctive game, with unique traits (including better sportsmanship?) then it will be worth watching in its own right, with no physical comparisons necessary.

Baez87 - Baez87 - 04-05-2023

(04-05-2023, 07:33 PM)81alum Wrote:
(04-05-2023, 12:29 PM)Softball Fan Wrote: I thought Clark's remarks about Reese and LSU as a team were gracious. However I disagree with Clark that taunting, insults, and trash talk should be part of the game. In one interview Clark said it's done in the men's game so it should be acceptable in the women's game. IMO a bad trait in the men's game doesn't make it right or mean it should be transferred to the women's game.

In one article I read a local Iowa food bank was planning to pay NIL to Clark for representing their project. Instead Clark did it for free. I like that.
Excellent observations.

There have occasionally been male athletes who have committed armed robbery, rape, and other hideous offenses, and obviously we don't think that the women's game needs more of that to be fully "equal" to the men. Bad sportsmanship is not of the same magnitude as those kinds of offenses, but the principle is the same. Imitation is NOT the highest form of flattery here.

What gets lost in a lot of this is that there are many fans who watch the women's game because it is different from the men's. At least that is ME and I presume there are others like me.

If the women's game is seeking to be just like the men's, then it will be merely an inferior version. But if it seeks to be its own distinctive game, with unique traits (including better sportsmanship?) then it will be worth watching in its own right, with no physical comparisons necessary.

I agree that the game of basketball is better without trash talk. I would add that player's swagger, working the crowd, and self-congratulatory gestures do not elevate the sport; in my opinion, ego-driven or attention-seeking behaviors devalue the sport. The emphasis should be on the game and how the individual play contributes to the overall performance of the team — especially at the amateur level. College sports, and the training of athletes, should exemplify the higher good in society with principles of fairness and respect being the norm. If we are to make progress as a civilization, higher education must stand for something.
And if we accept trashy or poor behavior at the college level, it is just a matter of time before it is the accepted behavior in high school or elementary school. Would you tolerate arrogant of intimidating behavior in AYSO sports or Little League or in you child's or grandchild’s playground sports? Of course not!
Let’s expect the best of what life has to offer on the field, in the gym, in the classroom, and in society. The players will benefit, and so will we as fans.

RE: Caitlin Clark: Angel Reese should not be criticized for gestures at title game - oldalum - 04-06-2023

At some point, "Respect the Game" is in conflict with disrespecting your opponent. People can disagree about where that line is or should be, but the line does exist. For me, taunting an opponent who has lost a game, toward the end of the game or after it, is over that line.

RE: Caitlin Clark: Angel Reese should not be criticized for gestures at title game - Bampa - 04-06-2023

(04-06-2023, 08:27 AM)oldalum Wrote: At some point, "Respect the Game" is in conflict with disrespecting your opponent. People can disagree about where that line is or should be, but the line does exist. For me, taunting an opponent who has lost a game, toward the end of the game or after it, is over that line.

Baez87 - Baez87 - 04-06-2023

There are penalties for taunting in the NBA:
If a player blatantly taunts an opponent, a technical foul shall be assessed. The opponent WILL NOT, automatically, be assessed a technical foul. His behavior will be the determining factor.
Simultaneous taunting is a verbal altercation. Verbal altercations and unsportsmanlike conduct will be administered as a double technical foul and no free throws will be attempted.
Technical fouls assessed to opposing teams during the same dead ball and prior to the administering of any free throw attempt for the first technical foul, shall be interpreted as a double technical foul.
A PLAYER(S) GUILTY OF TAUNTING MUST BE SINGLED OUT AND PENALIZED.
If a previous unsportsmanlike act has been committed and if this situation is BLATANT, a technical foul must be assessed and the guilty player(s) must be ejected.

And there are penalties for taunting in NCAA basketball:
Using profanity or vulgarity; taunting, baiting or ridiculing another player or bench personnel; or pointing a finger at or making obscene gestures toward another player or bench personnel. c. Inciting undesirable crowd reaction. PENALTY: Two free throws shall be awarded to any member of the offended team.

Taunting after the game is concluded does not seem to be covered, but the referees have a clear mission during the game. If trash talk doesn’t rise to the same level as taunting, it might need to be reviewed in the off season. Rules need to be clear, and the game needs to be controlled by the rules. Otherwise we have chaos.

RE: Baez87 - MiniBlueHawkCard - 04-06-2023

As a big fan of the women's game. all the attention Reese and Clark generated for the sport leaves me a bit concerned, especially as a Stanford fan. The rating were incredible. ALL the talking heads shared their opinion on the taunting. My fear is the powers that be will want to replicate this attention. This has potential to create a product that I personally have very little interest in. (Has anyone watched an SEC football game? That back and forth taunting is so over the top it is hard to stomach.) For the record, the men's national championship game was played with basically no taunting by either side. Think of how many bad technical fouls happen in the men's game for "hanging on the rim" I am not sure I agree with the idea that taunting is more tolerated on the men's side.

I think the increasing appetite for this type of rivalry is yet another challenge Stanford women's basketball will have to overcome. Remember when Boston missed the last second put back in the semifinal in 2021? That miss meant Stanford was going to the championship game for the first time in a decade. How did the players celebrate? Well, the first players to comfort Boston were Haley Jones and Fran Belibi. It was an incredible, and genuine, display of sportsmanship. ESPN highlighted the moment but it did not come close to moving the needle in a way last weekend's lack of sportsmanship did. Which moment repeated would draw more attention? While someone like Cam might play with an edge, there will never be a place for excessive taunting in the Stanford program.

RE: Baez87 - BillBradley - 04-06-2023

(04-06-2023, 02:43 PM)MiniBlueHawkCard Wrote: As a big fan of the women's game. all the attention Reese and Clark generated for the sport leaves me a bit concerned, especially as a Stanford fan. The rating were incredible. ALL the talking heads shared their opinion on the taunting. My fear is the powers that be will want to replicate this attention. This has potential to create a product that I personally have very little interest in. (Has anyone watched an SEC football game? That back and forth taunting is so over the top it is hard to stomach.) For the record, the men's national championship game was played with basically no taunting by either side. Think of how many bad technical fouls happen in the men's game for "hanging on the rim" I am not sure I agree with the idea that taunting is more tolerated on the men's side.

I think the increasing appetite for this type of rivalry is yet another challenge Stanford women's basketball will have to overcome. Remember when Boston missed the last second put back in the semifinal in 2021? That miss meant Stanford was going to the championship game for the first time in a decade. How did the players celebrate? Well, the first players to comfort Boston were Haley Jones and Fran Belibi. It was an incredible, and genuine, display of sportsmanship. ESPN highlighted the moment but it did not come close to moving the needle in a way last weekend's lack of sportsmanship did. Which moment repeated would draw more attention? While someone like Cam might play with an edge, there will never be a place for excessive taunting in the Stanford program.

The media loves stuff like this because it's controversial. There are displays of sportsmanship all over the place (helping players up after they've fallen, hugs after the game, compliments in press conferences, etc.), so more of it really isn't that interesting. "Haley and Fran comfort Aliyah" is just not a headline that the masses are interested in. An article about Angel Reese taunting the best player in basketball with a picture of her pointing to her ring finger will generate a gazillion clicks. This won't ever change. It has nothing to do with the men's game, the women's game, the powers that be or anything else.

RE: Caitlin Clark: Angel Reese should not be criticized for gestures at title game - lex24 - 04-06-2023

(04-05-2023, 07:33 PM)81alum Wrote:
(04-05-2023, 12:29 PM)Softball Fan Wrote: I thought Clark's remarks about Reese and LSU as a team were gracious. However I disagree with Clark that taunting, insults, and trash talk should be part of the game. In one interview Clark said it's done in the men's game so it should be acceptable in the women's game. IMO a bad trait in the men's game doesn't make it right or mean it should be transferred to the women's game.

In one article I read a local Iowa food bank was planning to pay NIL to Clark for representing their project. Instead Clark did it for free. I like that.
Excellent observations.

There have occasionally been male athletes who have committed armed robbery, rape, and other hideous offenses, and obviously we don't think that the women's game needs more of that to be fully "equal" to the men. Bad sportsmanship is not of the same magnitude as those kinds of offenses, but the principle is the same. Imitation is NOT the highest form of flattery here.

What gets lost in a lot of this is that there are many fans who watch the women's game because it is different from the men's. At least that is ME and I presume there are others like me.

If the women's game is seeking to be just like the men's, then it will be merely an inferior version. But if it seeks to be its own distinctive game, with unique traits (including better sportsmanship?) then it will be worth watching in its own right, with no physical comparisons necessary.

I think it’s a bit of a stretch to compare trash talking to armed robbery.

Having said that, if I could waive a wand, I’d get rid of trash talking. But it’s been here a long time. And it’s going to stay. It’s a cherished part of our society. Quaint notions of civility are from a time long gone.

And - we are talking about it. Right? So, expect a whole lot more of it. It sells.

RE: Caitlin Clark: Angel Reese should not be criticized for gestures at title game - 81alum - 04-06-2023

(04-06-2023, 03:44 PM)lex24 Wrote: .
I think it’s a bit of a stretch to compare trash talking to armed robbery..

The comparison is not one of degree. It was one of the reductio ad absurdum arguments made solely to prove the fallacy that if the men do it, the women should be able to, too. That's all.

RE: Baez87 - M T - 04-06-2023

(04-06-2023, 08:57 AM)Baez87 Wrote: Taunting after the game is concluded does not seem to be covered, but the referees have a clear mission during the game.

Right here in the PAC-12, in 2023
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYMkmhL2y7Y

RE: Baez87 - BostonCard - 04-06-2023

(04-06-2023, 08:57 AM)Baez87 Wrote: There are penalties for taunting in the NBA:
If a player blatantly taunts an opponent, a technical foul shall be assessed. The opponent WILL NOT, automatically, be assessed a technical foul. His behavior will be the determining factor.
Simultaneous taunting is a verbal altercation. Verbal altercations and unsportsmanlike conduct will be administered as a double technical foul and no free throws will be attempted.
Technical fouls assessed to opposing teams during the same dead ball and prior to the administering of any free throw attempt for the first technical foul, shall be interpreted as a double technical foul.
A PLAYER(S) GUILTY OF TAUNTING MUST BE SINGLED OUT AND PENALIZED.
If a previous unsportsmanlike act has been committed and if this situation is BLATANT, a technical foul must be assessed and the guilty player(s) must be ejected.

Yeah, cause that works so well.

[Image: ratio3x2_1800-1-1110x1065.jpg]

Baez87 - Baez87 - 04-06-2023

I saw that game on TV. Curry had just made a three that iced the game in the fourth quarter. He signaled to everyone at Chase that it was time to go home and catch some sleep, because the game was over. The taunting rule is applied when one player lords it over another player that has the potential to start a fight. Draymont Green oven gets a taunting call, because he can’t let his play speak the final work — he verbally berates his opponent, thus rubbing it in. There are plenty of taunting calls that follow this pattern in the NBA.

RE: Caitlin Clark: Angel Reese should not be criticized for gestures at title game - martyup - 04-07-2023

What do you call this?

https://youtu.be/kTooowko0p4