Big12 - Printable Version

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Big12 - DC native - 08-17-2023

Found this on a CAL forum. 

"Is the Big12 a option? If CAL & Sanford cant get into the BIG10 or ACC the Big12 seems better option than the PAC4/AAC or MWC."

Based on what I have read CAL fans prefer the Big12 over a PAC4/AAC, and I have to agree.

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Mudhead - Mudhead - 08-17-2023

(08-17-2023, 06:17 AM)DC native Wrote:  Found this on a CAL forum. 

"Is the Big12 a option? If CAL & Sanford cant get into the BIG10 or ACC the Big12 seems better option than the PAC4/AAC or MWC."

Based on what I have read CAL fans prefer the Big12 over a PAC4/AAC, and I have to agree.

Agree. PAC4/AAC is the losers bracket

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RE: Big12 - dabigv13 - 08-17-2023

Big 12 commish says they're done expanding.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/big12/2023/08/16/big-12-expansion-plans-commissioner-brett-yorkmark-says/70604787007/

It may be he's saying that because he knows Stanford and cal aren't really interested.

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Hieronymus - Hieronymus - 08-17-2023

I admit I find the Big12 problematic. In general, I think it’s a bad cultural fit in general. Specifically, I find Baylor very problematic for both us and Berkeley.

https://www.texastribune.org/2023/08/12/baylor-title-ix-sexual-harassment/

I would rather go independent as a last resort.

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RE: Big12 - dabigv13 - 08-17-2023

I honestly don't care that much about the cultural fit part of this. Like we were in a conference for decades and decades with USC, some of the most rotten scoundrels around!

I still think somehow we end up in B10.

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RE: Big12 - pcgoode - 08-17-2023

While my preference is to be in the BIG, I am warming to the idea of a reinvented PAC if that doesn’t work out. With the CFP expanding to 12 teams I think there is the possibility of being nationally relevant as a team even if not in the BIG or SEC. Pair that with a Stanford degree and it’s not the worst option.

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RE: Big12 - SkiBum80 - 08-17-2023

(08-17-2023, 09:21 AM)pcgoode Wrote:  While my preference is to be in the BIG, I am warming to the idea of a reinvented PAC if that doesn’t work out. With the CFP expanding to 12 teams I think there is the possibility of being nationally relevant as a team even if not in the BIG or SEC. Pair that with a Stanford degree and it’s not the worst option.

Being in the BIG with a 6 team (assuming Cal too) or even 8 team (with the northwest little sisters) division would be a pathetic humiliation of the core of PAC absorbed into the BIG. However, the benefits of scheduling a west coast division of BIG, along with the sizable conference payouts, would be rather large-filled stein able to wash down a generous helping of eating crow. Unfortunately it just doesn't sound like joining the BIG is a likely prospect (unless a hail mary happens to connect) for us for 2024, or even 2025. Maybe after that? So we need more immediate plans.

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RE: Big12 - dabigv13 - 08-17-2023

One of many problems with ACC is we would be stuck there til 2036. Still may be best option if B1G is truly off the table and nobody wants to join the Pac-4, but it wouldn't really be the option to pick if we are just trying to bide our time for a few years.

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Mudhead - Mudhead - 08-17-2023

(08-17-2023, 09:09 AM)dabigv13 Wrote:  I honestly don't care that much about the cultural fit part of this. Like we were in a conference for decades and decades with USC, some of the most rotten scoundrels around!

I still think somehow we end up in B10.

Hooray for realism! Cultural fit?  Historically , requiring a cultural fit was a way to descriminate on the basis of race or religion. I’m sure that’s not  was meant here . Still , it’s an odd concept  for an athletic conference.  WSU and Stanford have zero cultural overlap . Berkeley and Arizona State?  If you want a cultural fit, I suspect you do have to go independent.

Here in the real world , let’s just work on getting in a Power 5 conference .

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RE: Big12 - Canalejas - 08-17-2023

Berkeley is much, much closer to ASU than Stanford is to Baylor. 

But you don't have to care about cultural fit if you don't want to. Or research profile.  Or school rankings. Or academic freedom. Maybe Boise's awesome Fiesta Bowl is all that's needed to want to be in a conference with them. Or Gonzaga's tournament appearances.

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RE: Big12 - oman - 08-17-2023

I'm thinking "cultural fit" is part of what got us where we are today.

Beggars can't be culturally fit.

(Baylor and TCU are clear and near perfect fits in terms of size/competitiveness in football and basketball.  Having more exposure in Texas would be great for recruiting.  Very solid baseball conference.)

A much better geographical fit in terms of thinking of the future and more shakeout, with Stanford fitting in better with a Southwest US presence.

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Mudhead - Mudhead - 08-17-2023

(08-17-2023, 12:11 PM)Canalejas Wrote:  Berkeley is much, much closer to ASU than Stanford is to Baylor. 

But you don't have to care about cultural fit if you don't want to. Or research profile.  Or school rankings. Or academic freedom. Maybe Boise's awesome Fiesta Bowl is all that's needed to want to be in a conference with them. Or Gonzaga's tournament appearances.

I fear we are talking past one another.. ASU appears to be the 122 ranked school in USA while Baylor is 77. ASU accepts 89% of applications and Baylor 57%.  there are other figures. ASU law school ranked higher than Baylor’s but Baylor Med School is world class.  

I’m not trying to argue which “cultural” aspect is more important  rather that culture is a pretty ill defined slope for a university.  I agree with you, I’m not wild about being in conference with a blue field but i would not  want to be in conference with Harvard or Yale either. 

I am more concerned with an athletic conference that is competitive at the top tier than I am  about a cultural fit   I can figure out what a top tier athletic program is but cultural fits for institutions are beyond me.  And I suspect most people.

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RE: Big12 - Canalejas - 08-17-2023

Baylor College of Medicine separated from Baylor University decades ago.  Perhaps that's why when you look at rankings other than USNWR National, you might see Baylor in the 600-700 range globally (using ARWU, as an example) while ASU is somewhere between 101 and 150. Times Higher Education is similar (ASU is 156 while Baylor is 601-800.) Same goes for QS (ASU is 179, while Baylor is 1001-1200.)  


I'd like to be competitive in sports, sure. But I don't find it hard to care about fit. I guess I'm a choosy beggar.

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RE: Big12 - jonnyss - 08-17-2023

(08-17-2023, 01:34 PM)Canalejas Wrote:  Baylor College of Medicine separated from Baylor University decades ago.  Perhaps that's why when you look at rankings other than USNWR National, you might see Baylor in the 600-700 range globally (using ARWU, as an example) while ASU is somewhere between 101 and 150. Times Higher Education is similar (ASU is 156 while Baylor is 601-800.) Same goes for QS (ASU is 179, while Baylor is 1001-1200.)  


I'd like to be competitive in sports, sure. But I don't find it hard to care about fit. I guess I'm a choosy beggar.

baylor med center in dallas is also physically quite separate from baylor u in dallas. about the same distance apart as stanford and uc davis.

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Mudhead - Mudhead - 08-17-2023

(08-17-2023, 01:34 PM)Canalejas Wrote:  Baylor College of Medicine separated from Baylor University decades ago.  Perhaps that's why when you look at rankings other than USNWR National, you might see Baylor in the 600-700 range globally (using ARWU, as an example) while ASU is somewhere between 101 and 150. Times Higher Education is similar (ASU is 156 while Baylor is 601-800.) Same goes for QS (ASU is 179, while Baylor is 1001-1200.)  


I'd like to be competitive in sports, sure. But I don't find it hard to care about fit. I guess I'm a choosy beggar.

You’re right , I used USNWR national rankings . It also had ASU with a four year graduation rate of  52% vs  68 % for Baylor.  And no, I did t look at worldwide rankings as not many non US schools are likely. to be in an athletic conference with Stanford. 

I’d be interested reading a post where you put together a conference based on best cultural fit. Be fun to see .

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RE: Big12 - Card10Fan - 08-17-2023

(08-17-2023, 06:17 AM)DC native Wrote:  Found this on a CAL forum. 

"Is the Big12 a option? If CAL & Sanford cant get into the BIG10 or ACC the Big12 seems better option than the PAC4/AAC or MWC."

Based on what I have read CAL fans prefer the Big12 over a PAC4/AAC, and I have to agree.

I would not put any credibility to a random fan post on the CAL forum. Stanford is not interested in the Big 12. That has been discussed many times. Stanford and the Big 12 are not a match. It is not going to happen and was never even seriously discussed.

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RE: Big12 - fullmetal - 08-17-2023

(08-17-2023, 01:54 PM)jonnyss Wrote:  

(08-17-2023, 01:34 PM)Canalejas Wrote:  Baylor College of Medicine separated from Baylor University decades ago.  Perhaps that's why when you look at rankings other than USNWR National, you might see Baylor in the 600-700 range globally (using ARWU, as an example) while ASU is somewhere between 101 and 150. Times Higher Education is similar (ASU is 156 while Baylor is 601-800.) Same goes for QS (ASU is 179, while Baylor is 1001-1200.)  


I'd like to be competitive in sports, sure. But I don't find it hard to care about fit. I guess I'm a choosy beggar.

baylor med center in dallas is also physically quite separate from baylor u in dallas. about the same distance apart as stanford and uc davis.

Baylor Med might have a building in Dallas, but the medical school itself is primarily based in Houston :)

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RE: Big12 - jonnyss - 08-17-2023

(08-17-2023, 05:21 PM)fullmetal Wrote:  

(08-17-2023, 01:54 PM)jonnyss Wrote:  

(08-17-2023, 01:34 PM)Canalejas Wrote:  Baylor College of Medicine separated from Baylor University decades ago.  Perhaps that's why when you look at rankings other than USNWR National, you might see Baylor in the 600-700 range globally (using ARWU, as an example) while ASU is somewhere between 101 and 150. Times Higher Education is similar (ASU is 156 while Baylor is 601-800.) Same goes for QS (ASU is 179, while Baylor is 1001-1200.)  


I'd like to be competitive in sports, sure. But I don't find it hard to care about fit. I guess I'm a choosy beggar.

baylor med center in dallas is also physically quite separate from baylor u in dallas. about the same distance apart as stanford and uc davis.

Baylor Med might have a building in Dallas, but the medical school itself is primarily based in Houston :)

thanks for the guidance. indeed, i thought the same until i searched google maps for baylor medical center. turns out there is an unrelated "baylor university medical center" in dallas, but baylor college of medicine is, as you say, in houston. i think my main point stands, though: houston is even farther from baylor in waco.

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RE: Mudhead - Canalejas - 08-17-2023

(08-17-2023, 04:57 PM)Mudhead Wrote:  You’re right , I used USNWR national rankings . It also had ASU with a four year graduation rate of  52% vs  68 % for Baylor.  And no, I did t look at worldwide rankings as not many non US schools are likely. to be in an athletic conference with Stanford. 

It's actually not too difficult to filter out the non-US schools (and also the dedicated health science campuses in the US) from such lists.  Just a few days ago I did that for a few different rankings and posted the slimmed-down lists to a different thread.  Lemme copy and paste them here for anyone that's curious. I included the top 50ish schools in each case.  ASU made the cutoff sometimes.  Baylor never did.  

Quote:I’d be interested reading a post where you put together a conference based on best cultural fit. Be fun to see .

Dude! That's like my favorite thing to do. I love imagining completely unrealistic conferences for Stanford based on little more than my preferred idea of institutional compatibility. 

And really, what I want is not that different from what we just lost.  It always, always starts with a core group of Stanford-Cal-UCLA-UW.  (And fine, I'll admit it, also USC.) That's the group that's always highly ranked, in pretty much every published list, while also being in the west and interested in playing big time sports.  

From there it gets difficult.  

Either I reach for schools that are in other time zones, farther down the rankings, or that don't currently play FBS football.  

The hyperlocal option (and I'll admit my favorite to imagine) is a hybrid option with the core 5 plus the Big West UCs. That's the one that lets me dream about endless trash talk with all of my childhood buddies. And then we'd have to round off the football numbers probably by adding back Utah and the AZ schools.  

The came-to-play-school option builds with my core 5 plus Virginia-North Carolina-Duke. And probably whatever friends it would take to make that bicoastal marriage work.  

The recruiting grounds option is to start with my core 5 and add Texas and Rice.  Again, filling in with whatever friends it takes to make that work.  

But if we're talking about conferences that are likely to exist in this reality in the near future... well, there really is only one option that's chock full of institutionally similar schools.  And that's the Big Ten. It has to be the Big Ten.  Nothing anymore comes close to the Big Ten (as I think all those tallies in the lists I pasted above made clear.)  

And if we can't move heaven and earth to get invited to the Big Ten with Cal, then the next-best fit would have to be the ACC.  And after that, re-connecting with the AZ and mountain schools in the BigXII. With the emergency option being independence and a non-football conference that includes the Bay Area pair and the Big West UCs.  

Those are the options I see when my first and most-important filter is cultural fit.

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Mudhead - Mudhead - 08-17-2023

(08-17-2023, 08:42 PM)Canalejas Wrote:  

(08-17-2023, 04:57 PM)Mudhead Wrote:  You’re right , I used USNWR national rankings . It also had ASU with a four year graduation rate of  52% vs  68 % for Baylor.  And no, I did t look at worldwide rankings as not many non US schools are likely. to be in an athletic conference with Stanford. 

It's actually not too difficult to filter out the non-US schools (and also the dedicated health science campuses in the US) from such lists.  Just a few days ago I did that for a few different rankings and posted the slimmed-down lists to a different thread.  Lemme copy and paste them here for anyone that's curious. I included the top 50ish schools in each case.  ASU made the cutoff sometimes.  Baylor never did.  

Quote:I’d be interested reading a post where you put together a conference based on best cultural fit. Be fun to see .

Dude! That's like my favorite thing to do. I love imagining completely unrealistic conferences for Stanford based on little more than my preferred idea of institutional compatibility. 

And really, what I want is not that different from what we just lost.  It always, always starts with a core group of Stanford-Cal-UCLA-UW.  (And fine, I'll admit it, also USC.) That's the group that's always highly ranked, in pretty much every published list, while also being in the west and interested in playing big time sports.  

From there it gets difficult.  

Either I reach for schools that are in other time zones, farther down the rankings, or that don't currently play FBS football.  

The hyperlocal option (and I'll admit my favorite to imagine) is a hybrid option with the core 5 plus the Big West UCs. That's the one that lets me dream about endless trash talk with all of my childhood buddies. And then we'd have to round off the football numbers probably by adding back Utah and the AZ schools.  

The came-to-play-school option builds with my core 5 plus Virginia-North Carolina-Duke. And probably whatever friends it would take to make that bicoastal marriage work.  

The recruiting grounds option is to start with my core 5 and add Texas and Rice.  Again, filling in with whatever friends it takes to make that work.  

But if we're talking about conferences that are likely to exist in this reality in the near future... well, there really is only one option that's chock full of institutionally similar schools.  And that's the Big Ten. It has to be the Big Ten.  Nothing anymore comes close to the Big Ten (as I think all those tallies in the lists I pasted above made clear.)  

And if we can't move heaven and earth to get invited to the Big Ten with Cal, then the next-best fit would have to be the ACC.  And after that, re-connecting with the AZ and mountain schools in the BigXII. With the emergency option being independence and a non-football conference that includes the Bay Area pair and the Big West UCs.  

Those are the options I see when my first and most-important filter is cultural fit.

Interesting and thanks. That filter gives us the same approach as my “What makes sense in this world we find ourselves”

Big 10 or B1G I guess  it is is, far and away the best answer .. at almost any short term economic price.

ACC next best but not “at almost any price” ..travel plus. It a permanent solution

BiG 12… we might have had this with all but USC and UCLA in a two division monster…but it would have left us with a lot of traditional rivals

After that, it’s pretty dismal.  I don’t   believe Independent  will work and i really don’t care if some form of Big West is there …. My own cultural bias is that I don’t  want to be thrown in with schools at the 2nd level athletically .   If we are there on our own, please don’t wake me up and tell me.l

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