WBB: Stanford 86 Cal Poly SLO 32

WBB: Stanford 86 Cal Poly SLO 32 - Printable Version

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WBB: Stanford 86 Cal Poly SLO 32 - 81alum - 11-13-2023

Preview:

Fresh off our exhilarating win over ranked Indiana, we now take on Cal Poly at Maples Thursday night at 7pm. The game will be livestreamed.

I teach in the CSU, and I can tell you that “Cal Poly” is a contentious name. We are playing Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. SLO likes to think of itself as THE Cal Poly, but there is also Cal Poly Pomona, and more recently the renamed Cal Poly Humbolt. SLO is an elite campus in the CSU with admissions standards higher than many campuses in the University of California system, an enrollment of 21k, and a campus that is 1000 acres larger than Stanford’s enormous campus. In some majors there are students who turn down Berkeley and UCLA to go to SLO. SLO, like Stanford, is situated near an idyllic live oak/foothill setting.

SLO’s WBB plays in the Big West conference. Over the last 10 years, they have 8 wins and 15 losses to Hawaii, which should give us a bit of an idea about their general level of play. This year, its WBB team was very ambitious with its schedule. It has already played Washington State and Cal, and was thumped in both games. SJSU has also already beaten them, but SLO was able to get a 10 point win over the University of Idaho, and thus finds itself at 1-3 on its way into Maples.

Last year SLO was not very good, going 10-18, and losing in the first game of its conference tournament to UC Riverside. We played them last year and defeated them 80-43. That was the game Jump went 8/15 from three point range.

One advantage about playing a team with 4 games officially under its belt is that the stats are not completely bogus. Six players have started, and they carry 11 on their roster. SLO does not seem to have one single dominant player: the scoring leader has 12 ppg, then the next players have 9, 9, 7 and 6. That scoring leader is 6’1” senior forward Natalia Ackerman. Ackerman is from Watsonville. Most games she has played only about ½ the game, so it does seem that SLO must do a lot of player rotation. Ackerman is 1/1 from three point range, so she does most of her scoring from inside.

SLO has 2 short guards who are hitting over 40% from three point range. One, 5’3” junior guard Annika Shah is from Paly, so there will be a local fan club cheering for her. Also of note is a 6’3” freshman forward, Mary Carter, who is 9/17 from three point range. Carter does not start but plays more than those who do. Bothering her shot will no doubt be a priority. Expect Brink or Iriafen to come out to the perimeter to guard her.

SLO is a notch better than an exhibition game, but a notch worse than Hawaii. Thursday night will be much more about watching our own players develop—especially the freshmen, Harriel, etc.

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Cal Poly SLO, Thursday 7pm - BobK - 11-13-2023

Thanks for the review. I did sevd to the FBC
As a proud Mustang of long ago we are The Cal Poly

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Cal Poly SLO, Thursday 7pm - 81alum - 11-14-2023

In listening to Debbi Antonelli give color to the Indiana game, I was intrigued by what she said about the triangle and the "pinch" dimensions of Stanford's offense. I've now done some reading and watching to understand it and will try to explain it here, so that as we watch future games, like Cal Poly, we can look for it.

The Triangle offense, developed by Tex Winter and Phil Jackson, as a whole has gone out of fashion even though it dominated basketball in the 90s and 2000s. Shortened shot clocks and the emphasis on three point shooting are probably responsible for its decline.

If you que up the Indiana game, available on ESPN replay, you can hear and see Antonelli's explanations of the element of the Triangle that Tara is running today. Her comments are with 38 seconds left in the 1st quarter and with 4:20 left in the 2nd quarter.

In the Triangle, play always goes through the "pinch post." What is that? It is a post player who waits at the elbow of the free throw line to receive the initiating pass. Once the post receives the pass at that position, the post (Brink usually, but I saw Agara also, not sure if I saw Iriafen) reads the defense and has several different plays that are designed to attack different weaknesses, and the "pinch post" needs to be good at quickly deciding which is the most appropriate play. In a sense, then, the post is doing the work that is normally done by the point guard.

To make this work, the post player absolutely has to have all the fundamental skills. She has to be able to put the ball on the floor, pivot, and take it to the rim. Brink did that several times against Indiana, pivoting and scoring. Not all big posts are nimble enough to regularly drive from a standing stop 10 feet away from the basket and finish. Betts, for example, may be a superb post down low, but was never cut out to be the pinch post.

And it is critical that the post also have the ability to face up from the elbow and hit the mid range jumper. If the driving lanes are clogged or cut off, the post needs to consistently make that jumper which amounts to a free throw. And Brink has made 50 free throws in a row.

There are endless options from the pinch post. One common one is a give-and-go where the post hands it back to the guard that just passed it to her so the guard can attack the basket instead. Not sure if I saw that against Indiana. More rarely the pinch post can pass it to a guard (like Jump) on a back door cut, which makes it look a little more like the Princeton. Or the pinch post can run a two man game. Or the pinch post can step out a few steps and take a three point shot, which Brink attempted three times.

I noticed a couple of different formations that we were using. Most commonly, Brink would be at the pinch post and the other four players would all be "out" on the three point line. This is designed to pull the opposing players out of the paint to guard the line, thus leaving Brink room to maneuver if she puts it on the floor and attacks the basket. It also makes it possible for any of the four to break to the basket and receive a pass from Brink.

I also noticed that once or twice we had 2 pinch posts--each standing on a different elbow (corner.) Not sure what we run out of that formation, I will have to watch it more carefully. I don't think I saw a post setting up down low on the block at the same time as the pinch post was setting up at the elbow. That would be the classic High/Low formation. Maybe the fact that both Iriafen and Brink can drive from ten feet and quickly get to the block makes the pinch-pinch formation effective.

One advantage of always running the action through the pinch post is that the offense should work pretty well no matter whether the defense is playing man or zone. If man, then Brink can drive to the basket. But the elbow is also the weak spot in most zones, and if you have a player who can reliably knock down shots from that spot, it is a zone buster.

So that is what I have been able to learn. Some of you who have played or coached can probably correct or expand on my feeble efforts, but I'm really interested to understand our scheme--the same way I have always been fascinated by know what kind of offensive scheme a football team deploys.

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Cal Poly SLO, Thursday 7pm - CompSci87 - 11-14-2023

From what little I know, that sounds right.

I read up a little bit on the Triangle back when the team was primarily running it, and I remember a few tidbits.

The name Triangle comes from (often) having three players on one side of the court who work together. In some actions the triangle rotates, with each player winding up in a different position. This puts a premium on versatile players.

In these formations, sometimes the ball is passed over to the two players on the other side and they can work together on "two man game" actions.

Of course sometimes the triangle is on one side of the court and sometimes the other.

The original Triangle offense predated the 3-point shot, so all modern versions are adapted quite a bit to take advantage of the 3-point line.

Some of the Warriors' system has roots in the Triangle.

I'm sure both what Stanford ran in the Jayne Appel days and what they run now has roots in some of the original Triangle but differs in a lot of ways, with elements and plays modified, added, and removed.

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Cal Poly SLO, Thursday 7pm - 81alum - 11-14-2023

(11-13-2023, 07:44 PM)BobK Wrote: Thanks for the review. I did sevd to the FBC
As a proud Mustang of long ago we are The Cal Poly

Thank you Bob!

And of COURSE you are THE Cal Poly. I can say that safely, until a Pomona or Humbolt person comes along ;)

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Cal Poly SLO, Thursday 7pm - Spiny_Norman - 11-14-2023

I really appreciate the primer, 81alum. Thanks!

Now let's take the point of view of Stanford opponents. How do you disrupt what Stanford wants to do? Maybe you pressure to ball to make it hard to get it to the pinch post. You clog the passing lanes that Stanford wants to use.

Now let's take the point of view of Stanford responding to that. How do you create offense from on-ball pressure 25-30 feet from the basket when you cannot get the ball to the pinch point?

And so on, and so on. It's going to be fascinating to watch the back and forth in the P12 this season. You know that the opposing coaches are already building video on Stanford to prepare to defend them. Let's hope that battle goes better for Stanford this season than last.

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Cal Poly SLO, Thursday 7pm - freddot5 - 11-14-2023

I think tara started using the Triangle (or some variation of it) in 2002-03. The caveat to this post is that it is from memory as I don't have a lot of time at the moment to research. She had a young team with no seniors and Nicole Powell as a Jr.. Frosh or soph forwards were Trotter, Okafor, Thiel, Nweke, Perryman. They got to the NCAA 2nd Round. Key additions in 2003-04 and 2004-05 were Brooke Smith and Candice Wiggins and both years made the Regional Finals. 2005-06 added Roz G-O and Jillian Harmon advancing to the Regional SF and in 2006-07 with the addition of Jayne Appel went to the 2nd Rd. 2007-08 saw the addition of Pohlen and Pedersen and in Candice's final year beat UConn in the National SF before losing to Tenn in the NC. 2008-09 saw the addition of Nneka, 2009-10 Reuf and Tinkle, 2010-11 Chiney, and 2011-12 Bonnie Samuelson which lead to four successive Final 4 SF games. Chiney's last year was 2013-14 and another NC SF but starting in 2014-15 I think Tara started transitioning away from the Triangle.

I don't know why but if I recall comments she has made over the past 10 years, she has lamented the fact that many players don't have the fundamental basketball skills. Athletic yes, but one needs good fundamentals to succeed in the Triangle. Players also have to buy into and put the work into perfecting it. Maybe enough of the players weren't willing to commit. This year seems to to be a perfect storm of talent, commitment, maturity of freshmen, and fun to return to the system that Tara knows and loves. Let's hope it continues and everyone remains injury free. Please feel free to comment, add or subtract.

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Cal Poly SLO, Thursday 7pm - CompSci87 - 11-14-2023

The triangle is very much a read and react system, with counters to whatever the defense is likely to do. A challenge in using it is for the players to learn all that and to execute it quickly and decisively. With three freshmen in the rotation, and even the vets not having played it last year, the team probably doesn't know all the options yet, of course. So it probably will be just as Spiny says, with the coaches teaching more counters and options week by week as they come to be needed.

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Cal Poly SLO, Thursday 7pm - freddot5 - 11-14-2023

(11-14-2023, 11:07 AM)Spiny_Norman Wrote: I really appreciate the primer, 81alum. Thanks!

Now let's take the point of view of Stanford opponents. How do you disrupt what Stanford wants to do? Maybe you pressure to ball to make it hard to get it to the pinch post. You clog the passing lanes that Stanford wants to use.

Now let's take the point of view of Stanford responding to that. How do you create offense from on-ball pressure 25-30 feet from the basket when you cannot get the ball to the pinch point?

And so on, and so on. It's going to be fascinating to watch the back and forth in the P12 this season. You know that the opposing coaches are already building video on Stanford to prepare to defend them. Let's hope that battle goes better for Stanford this season than last.

Spiney, good points and questions. Good ball movement helps negate both issues and also use of a pinch on both elbows can open up additional options. Under all circumstances requires adequate 3 point shooting from passes back out from inside. I could see situations where Stanford uses Cameron, Kiki, and Nunu on the floor at the same time. Would potentially put significant pressure on our guards against a physical and quick team.

CompSc187 is definitely correct. Players have to react on the fly. Quick reactions and no coaching realtime. From what I've seen in the exhibition and Indiana games our players have both the capability and execute and the willingness to learn from their mistakes. Can't wait to see the improvement in March and April.

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Cal Poly SLO, Thursday 7pm - BosCard - 11-14-2023

Great analysis by everyone and great insight that you really need versatile forwards to make this system work. Last year, this would not have been a good offense for Betts or Prechtel (not quick enough to spin and drive) or Belibi (not a good midrange shooter). But Brink, Iriafen and Agara are all very dangerous spinning and driving and can all hit the mid-range jumper. The big question is will they be willing to pass the ball out when they are double teamed? Brink had a few turnovers vs Indiana when doubled. I appreciate her aggressiveness but the best player on our team is always going to get extra defensive attention and we have a lot of good catch and shoot 3-point shooters on our team to pass out to.

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Cal Poly SLO, Thursday 7pm - DaBears17 - 11-14-2023

(11-13-2023, 07:44 PM)BobK Wrote: Thanks for the review. I did sevd to the FBC
As a proud Mustang of long ago we are The Cal Poly

My daughter agrees!

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Cal Poly SLO, Thursday 7pm - 81alum - 11-16-2023

THE Cal Poly played THE Cal on Monday night, losing 74-60. Cal Poly outscored Cal 20-10 in the third quarter, so they showed they could play. Ackerman had 12 points inside and Carter 12 points from longer range, much as the scouting report would predict. Cal is really thin. McIntosh had to play 34 minutes, and Cal did not win by an enormous margin.

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Cal Poly SLO, Thursday 7pm - martyup - 11-16-2023

If anyone can record tonight's game, it would be greatly appreciated. I am otherwise engaged this evening. GO CARD!

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Cal Poly SLO, Thursday 7pm - CompSci87 - 11-16-2023

(11-16-2023, 09:36 AM)martyup Wrote: If anyone can record tonight's game, it would be greatly appreciated. I am otherwise engaged this evening. GO CARD!

I've set it up to try. I may have found a fix for the no-audio issue with youtube-dl (and yt-dlp), but I wasn't able to test it. Also, I will be at the game, so if something goes wrong, I probably won't notice or be able to fix it remotely.

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Cal Poly SLO, Thursday 7pm - OCcardinal - 11-16-2023

(11-14-2023, 02:47 AM)CompSci87 Wrote: The name Triangle comes from (often) having three players on one side of the court who work together. In some actions the triangle rotates, with each player winding up in a different position. This puts a premium on versatile players.

I remember reading somewhere (but cannot recall where) that because the triangle draws the defense to one side of the court it makes offensive rebounding easier. The stats so far seem to support that. Per Herhoopsstats.com our offensive rebounding rate is 52.2% (#3 in the country). Indiana's defensive rebound rate last season was ranked #25 in the country. Hawaii's was 82nd (out of 361 teams). Our offensive rebounding rate last season was still very good though: 39.8% (#9 in the country).

We will play the other top offensive rebounding teams soon. #4 in offensive rebounding rate so far is Duke (51.9%). #1 and #2 are Utah (53%) and UCLA (52.4%), respectively.

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Cal Poly SLO, Thursday 7pm - 81alum - 11-16-2023

Keep in mind that Antonelli and others have only said that Tara has always used "elements" of the triangle. It is very unlikely that she has installed the whole system, even to the extent she ran it in the 2000s. I wish I were a better expert, but I gather that the pinch post is the element that she is using, but perhaps not the other facets of the old triangle, which may actually be the more recognizable parts.

Still, I'm going to have fun looking for the pinch post from here on out and observing all the things that happen from that position.

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Cal Poly SLO, Thursday 7pm - SkiBum80 - 11-16-2023

Watching live stream
To me we started slow and unorganized, a little sloppy
Maybe not taking them seriously enough?
Cam w early foul, was sat down
Demetre came in and quickly made a bad pass turnover
She has not had a great start to season other than late in first game
After maybe half way thru 1st quarter we started looking better and finished the quarter stronger

Good to see even when our O was sputtering early the D kept hanging tough

Bosgana another player looks quite improved this year

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Cal Poly SLO, Thursday 7pm - mbdude - 11-16-2023

Lepolo leading scorer with 8 pts halfway thru 2nd qtr

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Cal Poly SLO, Thursday 7pm - SkiBum80 - 11-16-2023

For Cal Poly, seeing Nunu draining a 3 must be like being kicked while being down

RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Cal Poly SLO, Thursday 7pm - TonyLima - 11-16-2023

Right now, some of you may be asking why Stanford would schedule a game like this. There are two parts. First give the starters a rest. Second give the bench players some serious playing time.