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Kaepernick/Hogan - washingtonismoney - 01-12-2013

This pistol stuff they have Kaepernick running...well, let's hope Shaw continues using it (we've used some looks  with Hogan, including a formation w/ Hogan in pistol, Taylor behind, and Ertz and Toilolo in the fullback positions). It fits well with what we have and what we want to do.

Re: Kaepernick/Hogan - Bruce Wang - 01-13-2013

Once again a team from the tech capital of the world defeats a team from the cheese capital of America.

Re: Kaepernick/Hogan - OutsiderFan - 01-13-2013

It doesn't require great observation or football knowledge to see Kaepernick is a transformational NFL QB.  He's 6-5 230+ and runs a 4.5 40 (and seems to get faster after 40), and his arm is incredibly powerful.  To compare Hogan to Kaepernick and suggest he can do anything close to what Kaepernick can, by suggesting Shaw needs to use him similarly, is a bit unfair to Hogan, isn't it?

I think you can use Hogan in the read option a few plays per game to keep the defense off balance, but you can't run him for 10+ carries (Kaepernick had 16 against Green Bay) as a routine part of the offense.  It seems to me Hogan was used perfectly this season as a runner.  He might be able to do a bit more, but he's probably going to improve his value to Stanford simply by becoming a more consistent passer than he is going to help the team running the ball more.



Re: Kaepernick/Hogan - DC - 01-13-2013

Considering that Shaw limited Luck's runs to keep him healthy the whole season, it will be interesting to see how he manages Hogan's risks and body. Just as with Luck, there is also a steep drop off after Hogan.

Hopefully, Peat will get his pass protection down so the coaches trust him to protect Hogan's blindside and Yankey can move back to LG.  Then if we can run consistently from the RB position, it will lessen the need for Hogan to run as a core play all season.

Re: Kaepernick/Hogan - washingtonismoney - 01-13-2013

Sure. But then again there are a lot of QBs who are similarly talented as Hogan running pistol offense concepts to great effect. So it's more of an inspiration than anything else. Of course, Hogan will be less effective than Kaepernick -- but then again, there's a lot of room between "less effective than Kaepernick" and "better than Stanford's offense in 2012." I think a greater adoption of pistol offense concepts would do us well.

(01-13-2013, 08:50 AM)OutsiderFan link Wrote:I think you can use Hogan in the read option a few plays per game to keep the defense off balance, but you can't run him for 10+ carries (Kaepernick had 16 against Green Bay) as a routine part of the offense.  It seems to me Hogan was used perfectly this season as a runner.  He might be able to do a bit more, but he's probably going to improve his value to Stanford simply by becoming a more consistent passer than he is going to help the team running the ball more.

I don't think this is accurate, for two reasons.

For one, I don't necessarily think it adds a great deal of physical pounding. Kaepernick only ran the ball so much because Green Bay was so inept at defending the offense. I think Kaepernick was only hit once the entire game, between dropbacks and runs. Shaw had a great point about Mariota (which isn't pistol but has a similar idea)-- he said the secret to Oregon's offense is that the QB barely gets hit on the runs. Which is true -- if you run the ball on the read-option, you probably won't get hit too often.

Furthermore, you don't need to run the ball terribly often to succeed with this. Kaepernick's 16 carries against Green Bay was a big outlier; throughout the regular season, since his ascension to the starting job, Kaepernick's carries went from a low of 3 carries (against Arizona) to a high of 9 carries (against St. Louis.) Let's compare to Hogan. Hogan's carries (since taking over the starting job) went from a low of 4 carries (against UCLA the first time) to a high of 11 carries (against Oregon State and UCLA Round II.) Now owing to the NCAA's dumb policy to add sacks to rushing totals, the carries are closer than it appears, but the point is that running more pistol doesn't necessarily entail toting the ball more.

What it does help is this: the benefit of using read-option isn't to get the quarterback on the move (though that's an important side benefit.) The benefit is in reading a defender, eliminating him and thereby helping to even the numbers game for the offensive line, fullback and running back. If you're going to use read-option, it helps to think about what kind. Shotgun read-option makes downhill running difficult, and downhill power running is the foundation of offensive football for this program. The pistol, in positioning the running back behind the quarterback, allows the running back to go downhill while allowing you to add read-option concepts. Because of Hogan's mobility, it's the perfect way to utilize the resources we have.



Re: Kaepernick/Hogan - DC - 01-13-2013

When David Shaw was QB coach of the Raiders, he said he learned that what is important is not the number of sacks on a QB, but the number of hits.  So between that and his treatment of Luck, my guess is that he understands the need to preserve a QB over the whole season.  RGIII might reinforce that point.

Re: Kaepernick/Hogan - terry - 01-13-2013

Hogan's rushing stats for the 6 games in which he was the primary QB  --

48 attempts, 247 yards, 5.1 yds/att, 2 TDs

If we project those stats out to a 13-game season, Hogan was on a pace to run for 535 yards in a season, which would have been a Stanford record for a QB. (The record is held by Luck, 453 yards.)

Eliminating sacks from the rushing totals, Hogan's non-sack rushing stats for the last 6 games were:

38 attempts, 295 yards, 7.8 yds/att, 2 TDs

That's an average of 6.3 non-sack rushing attempts per game, and 49.2 non-sack rushing yards per game. Projected out to a 13-game season, that would have been 639 non-sack rushing yards in a season.

Re: Kaepernick/Hogan - Farm93 - 01-14-2013

(01-13-2013, 09:34 AM)washingtonismoney link Wrote:Now owing to the NCAA's dumb policy to add sacks to rushing totals, the carries are closer than it appears, but the point is that running more pistol doesn't necessarily entail toting the ball more.
FWIW - The Pistol, Wilson, RGIII and Kaepernick all demonstrate why the NFL's stats are the quirky ones.

For example, if Kaepernick gets hit for incorrectly reading his run option, then why should that count as a pass?  Was he planning on running when he was tackled for a run loss?  Or was he planning on dropping back for a pass? And therefore the loss should count as a pass.  Who knows?  It all likely would happen so early in the play that it would not be clear.  Bottom line - He had the ball, he could have run, he never attempted a pass, and therefore it should be a run attempt and a loss of yardage.

The NFL's way makes some stat guy in the stands responsible for making that pass loss vs run call.  Calling it a loss in passing yardage when a pass was not thrown or even attempted?  That's a bit silly, IMHO.Â