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Army....getting better or selling out? - CowboyIndian - 08-27-2014

This sounds like a discussion we may be having in the near future if the ESPN haircuts have their way.

http://www.si.com/college-football/2014/08/21/army-black-knights-jeff-monken

Re: Army....getting better or selling out? - JohnR34231 - 08-27-2014

I wonder if Maj Mears realizes that every other school that tries to compete in football, including the Ivy League schools, Navy and Air Force lets down its academic standards to have a competitive football team.

Re: Army....getting better or selling out? - washingtonismoney - 08-27-2014

(08-27-2014, 11:18 AM)JPRI link Wrote:I wonder if Maj Mears realizes that every other school that tries to compete in football, including the Ivy League schools, Navy and Air Force lets down its academic standards to have a competitive football team.

Probably. I would guess his argument that most of those schools aren't sending their students to the military.

Re: Army....getting better or selling out? - Stymie - 08-27-2014

We struggled to beat Army last year, and now they are actually trying to field a competitive team!

Damn it!

Re: Army....getting better or selling out? - jacketree - 08-27-2014

Army can't keep losing to Navy and Air Force. (Well they might, but they can't.)

West Pointers sometimes hammer on Navy and Air Force for "selling out", primarily with respect to relaxed weight limits and military training regimens. It might also be true that the service selections out of Annapolis (surface warfare, submarines, aviation, Seals, Special Ops, EOD, Marines air and ground, etc.) are more varied and of interest to more recruits than the West Point options (infantry, artillery, quartermaster, Army stuff).  I know the Navy pitch -- which I've heard in surround sound -- is that anything you can do in the Army or Air Force, you can do in the Navy and Marines and then some.  And if you ask my wife, West Point just sounds more dangerous -- five years on the ground in Afghanistan as opposed to an armed cruise ship or handling a drone joystick from Las Vegas.  (Believe me we've had these discussions.  Pointing out that flying is probably more dangerous than anything else hasn't been helpful. Nor was the news out of Coronado this summer that Jacketree Jr. has his heart set on MARSOC, the USMC Special Operations Command.)

My son plays a varsity sport for Navy and he will gladly admit there are perks that the "regular" brigade doesn't get. Like a refrigerator in his dorm room. He's had some run-ins with superiors who were pissed that he could sleep in after a Friday night game rather than muster for whatever at 0530.  But he's also pulled watch immediately after returning on the bus at 4 a.m. so it works both ways.  And the athletes at the service academies have far more of a physical load than the "regular" students on top of the same course load.

USNA has their own Maj. Mears, although he is a civilian. I'm sure a faction in Colorado Springs feels the same way.  I do know that a lot of people in the military think the service academies have gone way too far in the other direction, overemphasizing high school GPA and Board scores at the expense of kids who would do well as military officers.

USAFA, USMA and USNA are tied at the hip.  I don't see any of them dropping football or even dropping to the level of football played by USCGA and USMMA.  Most people at USNA would love to see Army be more competitive, even at the expense of The Streak.  Well, in an ideal world Army would become good and still lose to Navy every year. I do get the distinct feeling that there is not a ton of athletic love lost in either Annapolis or West Point for Chair Force; and there is some strong Army opinion, at least those guys in Philly I bought a round for after last year's game, that Army football started to crater the day the US Army Air Corps became the US Air Force.

Anyway you heard it here first.  Keenan Reynolds jump starts his Voldemort candidacy with a monster game against Ohio State in Baltimore Saturday. Go Navy!  Beat Army!

Re: Army....getting better or selling out? - needle - 08-27-2014

Ivan Maisel predicts Navy will crack the top 25 this year.

Quote: The Midshipmen are a veteran team that is going to make Ohio State work to win on Saturday, and Navy is playing a schedule that could easily have them 7-1 when they play Notre Dame at FedEx Field on Nov. 1. Navy head coach Ken Niumatalolo is 2-4 against the Fighting Irish, who narrowly beat the Midshipmen a year ago. Navy's biggest trouble is its schedule; the Midshipmen have a week off before four of their last five games. With an option offense that depends on timing, that might be an issue. If Niumatalolo figures that out, Navy will be back in the rankings.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/11403638/florida-return-baylor-miss-playoff-other-bold-college-football-predictions-2014

But, as for Army, the constant comparison to Navy football is like trying to run before learning to walk. Army over the last decade or so has truly been one of the worst FBS teams in the country. They need to emulate Duke, which gave Cutcliffe enough rope to have four consecutive losing seasons (4-8, 5-7, 3-9 3-9) before finally getting to 6-6 and then last year's 9-4.

(If you want to poke a hole in my argument, you can point out that Duke actually beat Navy in 2010. But Navy unquestionably had a better year in 2010, going 9-3 compared to Duke's 3-9 season. I chalk it up to basically a fluke win, with my point being that a team at Army's current level expecting/demanding to beat Navy this decade is a rather unrealistic position to have.)



Re: Army....getting better or selling out? - Rally - 08-27-2014

(08-27-2014, 02:19 PM)needle link Wrote:Ivan Maisel predicts Navy will crack the top 25 this year.

Quote: The Midshipmen are a veteran team that is going to make Ohio State work to win on Saturday, and Navy is playing a schedule that could easily have them 7-1 when they play the University of Dead Fake Girlfriends at FedEx Field on Nov. 1. Navy head coach Ken Niumatalolo is 2-4 against the Fighting Irish, who narrowly beat the Midshipmen a year ago. Navy's biggest trouble is its schedule; the Midshipmen have a week off before four of their last five games. With an option offense that depends on timing, that might be an issue. If Niumatalolo figures that out, Navy will be back in the rankings.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/11403638/florida-return-baylor-miss-playoff-other-bold-college-football-predictions-2014

But, as for Army, the constant comparison to Navy football is like trying to run before learning to walk. Army over the last decade or so has truly been one of the worst FBS teams in the country. They need to emulate Duke, which gave Cutcliffe enough rope to have four consecutive losing seasons (4-8, 5-7, 3-9 3-9) before finally getting to 6-6 and then last year's 9-4.

(If you want to poke a hole in my argument, you can point out that Duke actually beat Navy in 2010. But Navy unquestionably had a better year in 2010, going 9-3 compared to Duke's 3-9 season. I chalk it up to basically a fluke win, with my point being that a team at Army's current level expecting/demanding to beat Navy this decade is a rather unrealistic position to have.)

Are there still height and weight maximums for admission to the Academies?  There used to be.  If they are still in place none of them will ever again be elite.  When Army and Navy were elite teams the game was played with normal-sized humans, not 6'7" 325 plbs plus behemoths (who move ,ike normal sized humans.)

Re: Army....getting better or selling out? - fullmetal - 08-27-2014

I believe ht/wt restrictions are softened for linemen.

Re: Army....getting better or selling out? - jacketree - 08-27-2014

For USNA:

HEIGHT AND WEIGHT STANDARDS
Height Men Women
(in inches) Min Max Min Max
60 --- --- 94 131
61 --- --- 96 135
62 103 148 98 138
63 104 152 100 142
64 104 157 102 145
65 106 162 104 149
66 107 167 106 153
67 111 172 109 156
68 115 176 112 160
69 119 182 115 163
70 123 187 118 167
71 127 192 122 171
72 131 197 125 175
73 135 202 128 178
74 139 208 132 181
75 143 213 136 185
76 147 219 139 189
77 151 224 143 192
78 153 230 147 196

Obviously USNA relaxes these for football players.  I can't imagine West Point doesn't as well.  The service academies could not play competitive football otherwise.

My son plays Sprint Football, which has a 172 pound weight limit, measured every Tuesday.  (Famous Sprint alumni include George Allen, Donald Rumsfeld, Robert Kraft, Hoodie Allen, and Jimmy Carter. The league title almost always comes down to Army-Navy.) He says a lot of guys actually play at 200 pounds or more (Friday or Saturday) and he routinely loses 6-10 pounds during their daily conditioning. (Thus the need for a refrigerator.) The past two years they played a DII or III (or maybe club) team full of 300 pound plus linemen. They won both games, but lost 15 guys to injury each time, so they stopped doing that.  I dropped him off last week in Annapolis and he weighed 175, so he won't have any trouble making weight. He's a little heavier this year than last and he can kick my ass.  Guy on the right.

[Image: 10649480_834265426593082_327791725778903...30167db0ac]

Re: Army....getting better or selling out? - washingtonismoney - 08-27-2014

(08-27-2014, 04:43 PM)jacketree link Wrote:(Famous Sprint alumni include George Allen, Donald Rumsfeld, Robert Kraft, Hoodie Allen, and Jimmy Carter. ...)

http://youtu.be/ueZ6tvqhk8U?t=18s

Re: Army....getting better or selling out? - Rally - 08-27-2014

(08-27-2014, 04:24 PM)fullmetal link Wrote:I believe ht/wt restrictions are softened for linemen.

That sounds strange.  Any back-up?

Re: Army....getting better or selling out? - fullmetal - 08-28-2014

(08-27-2014, 08:21 PM)ferrari link Wrote:[quote author=fullmetal link=topic=10444.msg95464#msg95464 date=1409181858]
I believe ht/wt restrictions are softened for linemen.

That sounds strange.  Any back-up?
[/quote]

It Doesn't Take A Hero, H. Norman Schwarzkopf.  It's been a couple of decades since I read that though.

Quote:In some cases at the academies, athletes can be over the height or weight limits but must still adhere to stringent body fat restrictions. This makes recruiting offensive linemen very difficult. "I'd love to have a bunch of 320-pound guys with good feet," Calhoun said. "We've never had a 285-pound kid, which is very small for a Division I offensive lineman. We usually average 255 pounds with our offensive line."

Excerpted from http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2014/5/21/5736040/college-football-military-service-academies

Also, I have several USMA/USNA alumni friends who have corroborated.

Re: Army....getting better or selling out? - JohnR34231 - 08-28-2014

(08-27-2014, 11:53 AM)Stymie link Wrote:We struggled to beat Army last year, and now they are actually trying to field a competitive team!

Damn it!

Not sure "struggled" is the correct word. The score was 34-13 and if Shaw hadn't called off the dogs it would have been more like 50-13. It's true we didn't beat them as decisively as some Stanford fans would have liked to or thought we should have.

Re: Army....getting better or selling out? - terry - 08-28-2014

(08-27-2014, 11:53 AM)Stymie link Wrote:We struggled to beat Army last year, and now they are actually trying to field a competitive team!

I would not really say we struggled to beat Army last year. There was never a moment when I thought the outcome was in doubt.

Re: Army....getting better or selling out? - CornFed - 08-28-2014

I seem to recall that we got off to a fairly slow start.  That early in the season, it is always a little more uncomfortable when we start off not crisply.

Re: Army....getting better or selling out? - Stymie - 08-28-2014

Army was a 30 point underdog and coming in off a 26 point loss to Ball State!  We only beat them by 14.  We were ahead by 7 at halftime, and if Williamson hadn't kicked a 47 yard FG at the end of the half it would have been 4.  They dominated possession (34 minutres to our 26), and yes, we won, but it was hardly our finest moment.  Army ended the year 3-9.

Re: Army....getting better or selling out? - terry - 08-28-2014

Did you ever think the outcome was in doubt? I didn't.

Re: Army....getting better or selling out? - Stymie - 08-28-2014

(08-28-2014, 09:21 AM)terry link Wrote:Did you ever think the outcome was in doubt? I didn't.

Yes

When you go 30 minutes against a team you should have been beating by 3-4 TDs and you are only 7 points ahead and playing them on their home field, one would be foolish to to be completely smug about the outcome.