[BobK]

http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/04/18/fo...lions/amp/

[BobK]

http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/04/18/fo...lions/amp/

[Bruce Wang]

Let's file a class action lawsuit against Dawkins for ruining Stanford MBB.

[Bruce Wang]

Let's file a class action lawsuit against Dawkins for ruining Stanford MBB.

[paloalto]

I don't have an opinion about Dawkins.  He seemed like a nice guy.  My one general opinion is a top-flight school like Stanford should not take chances on coaches without DI head coaching experience. 

There are so many assistant coaches really good at what they do.  When you put them in the top position it sometimes doesn't work out.  Give me someone with a proven track record (unless they have demonstrated management skills in an area other than coaching).  I don't like the idea of taking gambles. 

[paloalto]

I don't have an opinion about Dawkins.  He seemed like a nice guy.  My one general opinion is a top-flight school like Stanford should not take chances on coaches without DI head coaching experience. 

There are so many assistant coaches really good at what they do.  When you put them in the top position it sometimes doesn't work out.  Give me someone with a proven track record (unless they have demonstrated management skills in an area other than coaching).  I don't like the idea of taking gambles. 

[dabigv13]

I had a hard time figuring out what was going on from the article but it makes it sound like we screwed him.

[dabigv13]

I had a hard time figuring out what was going on from the article but it makes it sound like we screwed him.

[Bruce Wang]

"Dawkins was fired without cause in March 2016 after failing to reach the NCAA tournament for the seventh time in eight seasons."

I know that's not the legal definition of cause, but in my book, failing to reach the NCAA tournament for the seventh time in eight seasons is.

[Bruce Wang]

"Dawkins was fired without cause in March 2016 after failing to reach the NCAA tournament for the seventh time in eight seasons."

I know that's not the legal definition of cause, but in my book, failing to reach the NCAA tournament for the seventh time in eight seasons is.

[fullmetal]

I was going to say, that sentence is a contradiction in terms.

[fullmetal]

I was going to say, that sentence is a contradiction in terms.

[CTcard]

I had a hard time figuring out what was going on from the article but it makes it sound like we screwed him.

Well, the article indicates that at the time of the firing Stanford and Dawkins agreed to settle all the outstanding contract by Stanford paying Dawkins $2.3 million and Dawkins would drop any further claims against Stanford.
Once Dawkins was hired by UCF it says that Stanford decided that the clause in the contract that says if somebody else hires Dawkins it reduces what Stanford owes was still active. Dawkins says no way - that was what the settlement was about.

I suspect somebody here probably works on such things for a living, and could give us a deeper sense of what is probably going on.

My one general opinion is a top-flight school like Stanford should not take chances on coaches without DI head coaching experience. 

Yeah, it's a good thing we didn't take a chance on that Harbaugh guy.
Or that Shaw guy.

[CTcard]

I had a hard time figuring out what was going on from the article but it makes it sound like we screwed him.

Well, the article indicates that at the time of the firing Stanford and Dawkins agreed to settle all the outstanding contract by Stanford paying Dawkins $2.3 million and Dawkins would drop any further claims against Stanford.
Once Dawkins was hired by UCF it says that Stanford decided that the clause in the contract that says if somebody else hires Dawkins it reduces what Stanford owes was still active. Dawkins says no way - that was what the settlement was about.

I suspect somebody here probably works on such things for a living, and could give us a deeper sense of what is probably going on.

My one general opinion is a top-flight school like Stanford should not take chances on coaches without DI head coaching experience. 

Yeah, it's a good thing we didn't take a chance on that Harbaugh guy.
Or that Shaw guy.

[Phogge]

Or that Taylor guy.

[Phogge]

Or that Taylor guy.

[BobK]

Or that Walsh guy.

[BobK]

Or that Walsh guy.

[Stymie]

Or "Pop" Bliss.  Undefeated in his only year of coaching at Stanford.....

[Stymie]

Or "Pop" Bliss.  Undefeated in his only year of coaching at Stanford.....

[fullmetal]

Might it be different in basketball?  There's a much larger market for D1 basketball head coaches than football (where only a number of coaches have big-time program experience).

[fullmetal]

Might it be different in basketball?  There's a much larger market for D1 basketball head coaches than football (where only a number of coaches have big-time program experience).

[JJJ]

I now think less highly of Dawkins. Just one fan's opinion, and probably not worth much, but it's the truth.  :(

[JJJ]

I now think less highly of Dawkins. Just one fan's opinion, and probably not worth much, but it's the truth.  :(

[Goose]

I now think less highly of Dawkins. Just one fan's opinion, and probably not worth much, but it's the truth.  :(

I don't. If Stanford did in fact agree to nullify the compensation clause and then in fact attempted to enforce it, I think less of Stanford (the corporate entity, not the "University"). Now, Stanford may say that they made no such agreement, and that is what the courts are for, to decide who is correct. One may say that Stanford was not obligated to make such an agreement, and I would agree. But if they did, they should honor their word. It wouldn't be the first time two parties have disagreed about what happened. I just hope Dawkins has it in writing.

[Goose]

I now think less highly of Dawkins. Just one fan's opinion, and probably not worth much, but it's the truth.  :(

I don't. If Stanford did in fact agree to nullify the compensation clause and then in fact attempted to enforce it, I think less of Stanford (the corporate entity, not the "University"). Now, Stanford may say that they made no such agreement, and that is what the courts are for, to decide who is correct. One may say that Stanford was not obligated to make such an agreement, and I would agree. But if they did, they should honor their word. It wouldn't be the first time two parties have disagreed about what happened. I just hope Dawkins has it in writing.

[BostonCard]

Usually, separation contracts with coaches do include some provision that if the former coach receives employment somewhere else, the severance package is reduced by some amount.  Ultimately, the lawyers will figure out if the severance package included that provision, and whether it is worth fighting it or not.

And, sorry, if my former employer tried to screw me out of $2 million, (if that is indeed what happened), I would be pissed too.

BC

[BostonCard]

Usually, separation contracts with coaches do include some provision that if the former coach receives employment somewhere else, the severance package is reduced by some amount.  Ultimately, the lawyers will figure out if the severance package included that provision, and whether it is worth fighting it or not.

And, sorry, if my former employer tried to screw me out of $2 million, (if that is indeed what happened), I would be pissed too.

BC

[CornFed]

I am amazed that high-priced legal talent cannot craft a document w/ sufficient clarity to avoid this particular disagreement.

[CornFed]

I am amazed that high-priced legal talent cannot craft a document w/ sufficient clarity to avoid this particular disagreement.

[DC 86]

Might it be different in basketball?  There's a much larger market for D1 basketball head coaches than football (where only a number of coaches have big-time program experience).

Perhaps, but there are plenty of examples of current/recent D-I head coaches who have been extremely successful in their first crack as a head coach: Roy Williams (Kansas), Tom Izzo (Michigan State), Jim Boeheim (Syracuse), Kevin Ollie (UConn), Brad Stevens (Butler), Mark Few (Gonzaga), Shaka Smart (VCU). Historically you can add Dean Smith, Adolph Rupp, John Thompson etc.

The reality is that sometime you take a chance on an assistant and he turns out to be Brad Stevens and other times he turns out to be Johnny Dawkins. Alternatively you hire someone who has been successful as the head coach at two previous stops and he continues his upward trajectory (John Calipari at Kentucky) or you hire someone who has been successful as the head coach at two previous stops and he fails in every possible way (Billy Gillispie at Kentucky).

[DC 86]

Might it be different in basketball?  There's a much larger market for D1 basketball head coaches than football (where only a number of coaches have big-time program experience).

Perhaps, but there are plenty of examples of current/recent D-I head coaches who have been extremely successful in their first crack as a head coach: Roy Williams (Kansas), Tom Izzo (Michigan State), Jim Boeheim (Syracuse), Kevin Ollie (UConn), Brad Stevens (Butler), Mark Few (Gonzaga), Shaka Smart (VCU). Historically you can add Dean Smith, Adolph Rupp, John Thompson etc.

The reality is that sometime you take a chance on an assistant and he turns out to be Brad Stevens and other times he turns out to be Johnny Dawkins. Alternatively you hire someone who has been successful as the head coach at two previous stops and he continues his upward trajectory (John Calipari at Kentucky) or you hire someone who has been successful as the head coach at two previous stops and he fails in every possible way (Billy Gillispie at Kentucky).

[Goose]

I am amazed that high-priced legal talent cannot craft a document w/ sufficient clarity to avoid this particular disagreement.

I am sure they can and did. It is what might have been agreed to in subsequent negotiations that is often the problem. The lawyers didn't write that necessarily, or even get the chance to vet it. Sometimes, time pressure makes administrators do dumb things. If the dumb things are in writing, I can see why Dawkins is taking legal action. If it was some kind of private "understanding", things could be murky. It could also be a private "misunderstanding". Shouldn't happen, but  it does all the time.

[Goose]

I am amazed that high-priced legal talent cannot craft a document w/ sufficient clarity to avoid this particular disagreement.

I am sure they can and did. It is what might have been agreed to in subsequent negotiations that is often the problem. The lawyers didn't write that necessarily, or even get the chance to vet it. Sometimes, time pressure makes administrators do dumb things. If the dumb things are in writing, I can see why Dawkins is taking legal action. If it was some kind of private "understanding", things could be murky. It could also be a private "misunderstanding". Shouldn't happen, but  it does all the time.

[CornFed]

[quote author=CornFed link=topic=16802.msg191934#msg191934 date=1492560269]
I am amazed that high-priced legal talent cannot craft a document w/ sufficient clarity to avoid this particular disagreement.

I am sure they can and did. It is what might have been agreed to in subsequent negotiations that is often the problem. The lawyers didn't write that necessarily, or even get the chance to vet it. Sometimes, time pressure makes administrators do dumb things. If the dumb things are in writing, I can see why Dawkins is taking legal action. If it was some kind of private "understanding", things could be murky. It could also be a private "misunderstanding". Shouldn't happen, but  it does all the time.
[/quote]


Well, I am sure they can.  I am not as confident that they did, but have no way of knowing at this point.

[CornFed]

[quote author=CornFed link=topic=16802.msg191934#msg191934 date=1492560269]
I am amazed that high-priced legal talent cannot craft a document w/ sufficient clarity to avoid this particular disagreement.

I am sure they can and did. It is what might have been agreed to in subsequent negotiations that is often the problem. The lawyers didn't write that necessarily, or even get the chance to vet it. Sometimes, time pressure makes administrators do dumb things. If the dumb things are in writing, I can see why Dawkins is taking legal action. If it was some kind of private "understanding", things could be murky. It could also be a private "misunderstanding". Shouldn't happen, but  it does all the time.
[/quote]


Well, I am sure they can.  I am not as confident that they did, but have no way of knowing at this point.

[Treebound]

If Dawkins wins, then I think it is only fair that he returns all the money to the loyal season ticket holders who suffered by having to watch our painful decline over 7+ years  :P.  If the AD is at fault here, that's going to be a painful check to write given the latitude that Dawkins was given by Muir.

[Treebound]

If Dawkins wins, then I think it is only fair that he returns all the money to the loyal season ticket holders who suffered by having to watch our painful decline over 7+ years  :P.  If the AD is at fault here, that's going to be a painful check to write given the latitude that Dawkins was given by Muir.

[Bruce Wang]

With this, Dawkins has now broken the tie with Buddy as the Stanford coach I hate the most since becoming a Cardinal.  My friends put him in a tie with Idiotface.  I wouldn't go that far. Even Dawkins did not jeopardize Stanford's participation as a D-1 A program.

I think the time has come for the Board Software to autocorrect Dawkins.

[Bruce Wang]

With this, Dawkins has now broken the tie with Buddy as the Stanford coach I hate the most since becoming a Cardinal.  My friends put him in a tie with Idiotface.  I wouldn't go that far. Even Dawkins did not jeopardize Stanford's participation as a D-1 A program.

I think the time has come for the Board Software to autocorrect Dawkins.