[BostonCard]

“Keller didn’t play his best game, obviously.”

Ummm, yeah.  I realize that there is some understatement there, and there is no need to pile on him in public...  but it was more than just not playing his best game.

BC

[BostonCard]

“Keller didn’t play his best game, obviously.”

Ummm, yeah.  I realize that there is some understatement there, and there is no need to pile on him in public...  but it was more than just not playing his best game.

BC

[lex24]

You know I defend Shaw. The record speaks for itself. But not changing both the QB and the tempo was indefensible.

[lex24]

You know I defend Shaw. The record speaks for itself. But not changing both the QB and the tempo was indefensible.

[OutsiderFan]

“Keller didn’t play his best game, obviously.”

Ummm, yeah.  I realize that there is some understatement there, and there is no need to pile on him in public...  but it was more than just not playing his best game.

BC

The question Shaw needs to be asked is:  What would it have taken to replace Chryst with Costello?

[OutsiderFan]

“Keller didn’t play his best game, obviously.”

Ummm, yeah.  I realize that there is some understatement there, and there is no need to pile on him in public...  but it was more than just not playing his best game.

BC

The question Shaw needs to be asked is:  What would it have taken to replace Chryst with Costello?

[81alum]

It was so bizarre that I wonder if there was something wrong with Costello.  Maybe Costello was coming off an unannounced practice injury and was only going to be used in an emergency?  Or he was being disciplined for some undisclosed reason?  Because this went way beyond being stubborn and veered into the irrational.  There should have been several more interceptions.  In fact, prior to the first interception it was obvious that there was one coming if Keller kept throwing the way he was throwing--staring down his receivers and throwing late and behind, over and over and over.

Let's not let the horrible quarterback play, though, distract us from a related story--our running was bad. 

Last game when Love went out, the other running backs looked good.  Speights carried 8 times and averaged 7.6, Scarlett carried 8 times and averaged 4.4.  And Oregon's run defense was not all that bad, statistically. 

Tonight, against a horrible defense, Speights carried 5 times and averaged 2.0, Scartlett carried 17 times and averaged 4.2. 

[81alum]

It was so bizarre that I wonder if there was something wrong with Costello.  Maybe Costello was coming off an unannounced practice injury and was only going to be used in an emergency?  Or he was being disciplined for some undisclosed reason?  Because this went way beyond being stubborn and veered into the irrational.  There should have been several more interceptions.  In fact, prior to the first interception it was obvious that there was one coming if Keller kept throwing the way he was throwing--staring down his receivers and throwing late and behind, over and over and over.

Let's not let the horrible quarterback play, though, distract us from a related story--our running was bad. 

Last game when Love went out, the other running backs looked good.  Speights carried 8 times and averaged 7.6, Scarlett carried 8 times and averaged 4.4.  And Oregon's run defense was not all that bad, statistically. 

Tonight, against a horrible defense, Speights carried 5 times and averaged 2.0, Scartlett carried 17 times and averaged 4.2. 

[JeffInCorvallis]

Costello was in uniform but I never saw him taking warm-up tosses during the game. Pretty sure I DID see Burns getting in some throws on the sidelines.

[JeffInCorvallis]

Costello was in uniform but I never saw him taking warm-up tosses during the game. Pretty sure I DID see Burns getting in some throws on the sidelines.

[CompSci87]

Costello was in uniform but I never saw him taking warm-up tosses during the game. Pretty sure I DID see Burns getting in some throws on the sidelines.

I did see Costello take some warmup throws near the start of the 2nd half.

[CompSci87]

Costello was in uniform but I never saw him taking warm-up tosses during the game. Pretty sure I DID see Burns getting in some throws on the sidelines.

I did see Costello take some warmup throws near the start of the 2nd half.

[RedShift]

I think Coach Shaw intended to show the country that it's his offense run by his guy, Chryst, that rolls over opponents whether Love plays or not.

[RedShift]

I think Coach Shaw intended to show the country that it's his offense run by his guy, Chryst, that rolls over opponents whether Love plays or not.

[OutsiderFan]

Shaw didn't say anything to suggest he is aware of just how bad that performance was.  He suggested they needed to look at things,  but he sure didn't sound like he was too upset with Chryst's play.

[OutsiderFan]

Shaw didn't say anything to suggest he is aware of just how bad that performance was.  He suggested they needed to look at things,  but he sure didn't sound like he was too upset with Chryst's play.

[washingtonismoney]

Shaw didn't say anything to suggest he is aware of just how bad that performance was.  He suggested they needed to look at things,  but he sure didn't sound like he was too upset with Chryst's play.

I don't take that terribly seriously. I can't find any damning quotes from Shaw immediately after last year's Colorado game on Burns. And, re: Nunes, Shaw always alternated been hysterically overwrought defenses of his play after losses and objective critiques after wins. So I don't think Shaw's rhetoric is an especially reliable guide to his behavior on QBs.

That being said, the staff's record over the past two years suggests to me they really want Chryst to succeed. So I expect to see him against Washington State. (Well, not see him, in this case. Turns out I have tickets to see LeBron play.)

[washingtonismoney]

Shaw didn't say anything to suggest he is aware of just how bad that performance was.  He suggested they needed to look at things,  but he sure didn't sound like he was too upset with Chryst's play.

I don't take that terribly seriously. I can't find any damning quotes from Shaw immediately after last year's Colorado game on Burns. And, re: Nunes, Shaw always alternated been hysterically overwrought defenses of his play after losses and objective critiques after wins. So I don't think Shaw's rhetoric is an especially reliable guide to his behavior on QBs.

That being said, the staff's record over the past two years suggests to me they really want Chryst to succeed. So I expect to see him against Washington State. (Well, not see him, in this case. Turns out I have tickets to see LeBron play.)

[dabigv13]

I agree with BC's forest view. Shaw can be frustrating, but having graduated with the first class to not win the Axe since like the 30s.

I remember when merely getting to a bowl game seemed a bridge too far.

[dabigv13]

I agree with BC's forest view. Shaw can be frustrating, but having graduated with the first class to not win the Axe since like the 30s.

I remember when merely getting to a bowl game seemed a bridge too far.

[Hurlburt88]

I am in the camp of wondering if something is up with KJ either a ding or discipline.  Shaw and staff saw the same performance we did. 

[Hurlburt88]

I am in the camp of wondering if something is up with KJ either a ding or discipline.  Shaw and staff saw the same performance we did. 

[winflop]

I am in the camp of wondering if something is up with KJ either a ding or discipline.  Shaw and staff saw the same performance we did.

If KJ was hurt, I think he should've put in Burns. For me to say that means something. Chryst was Apple Maps Bad.

[winflop]

I am in the camp of wondering if something is up with KJ either a ding or discipline.  Shaw and staff saw the same performance we did.

If KJ was hurt, I think he should've put in Burns. For me to say that means something. Chryst was Apple Maps Bad.

[Hurlburt88]

With you on this.    Scratching my head the more I think about it. 

[Hurlburt88]

With you on this.    Scratching my head the more I think about it. 

[Mick]

[quote author=Boston Card link=topic=17799.msg208498#msg208498 date=1509079945]

“Keller didn’t play his best game, obviously.”

Ummm, yeah.  I realize that there is some understatement there, and there is no need to pile on him in public...  but it was more than just not playing his best game.

BC

The question Shaw needs to be asked is:  What would it have taken to replace Chryst with Costello?
[/quote]

Injury or illness. 

Chryst's QB Rating was 25.5.  It is very difficult to do worse than that.

Love Coach Shaw, but he's a massive believer in his own BS re: Chryst.

[Mick]

[quote author=Boston Card link=topic=17799.msg208498#msg208498 date=1509079945]

“Keller didn’t play his best game, obviously.”

Ummm, yeah.  I realize that there is some understatement there, and there is no need to pile on him in public...  but it was more than just not playing his best game.

BC

The question Shaw needs to be asked is:  What would it have taken to replace Chryst with Costello?
[/quote]

Injury or illness. 

Chryst's QB Rating was 25.5.  It is very difficult to do worse than that.

Love Coach Shaw, but he's a massive believer in his own BS re: Chryst.

[Velodoc]

"It was so bizarre that I wonder if there was something wrong with Costello.  Maybe Costello was coming off an unannounced practice injury and was only going to be used in an emergency?  Or he was being disciplined for some undisclosed reason?  Because this went way being stubborn and veered into the irrational.  There should have been several more interceptions.  In fact, prior to the first interception it was obvious that there was one coming if Keller kept throwing the way he was throwing--staring down his receivers and throwing late and behind, over and over and over."

I rarely contribute here, but I am so frustrated that I consider this part of my "post-game therapy."

I've had these same thoughts as the above quote.  If KJ is not hurt or not being disciplined, then I'm really confused.  Prior to this game, the stats on Chryst vs. Costello were not all that different, but watching each of them, to me, there has been significant but hard to quantify differences.  KJ seems to bring more energy to the huddle, he extends plays with his athleticism, seems to consider different target options and throws a better ball.  Considering KJ's relative lack of experience, it's my conclusion that we have yet to see the best of KJ and that his upside could be of exceedingly large proportions. 

At his best, Chryst is a serviceable QB.  But as one of the announcers said last night, after Chryst stared down Irwin prior to throwing to him, "After 13 starts, a QB needs to be able to go through his progressions."

While stats can be useful (body stats, game stats, whatever), football remains a game of intangibles.  Call it being a "gamer" or whatever.  Chryst does not have the "it."  KJ might.  But unless Shaw has an epiphany (or we find out KJ is in doghouse or hurt), things don't bode well vs. UW, WSU and ND. 

And it pisses me off, as an invested fan and alum, that we are wasting an incredibly talented group of receivers. 

After not playing KJ and sticking with Chryst for so long, will DS now rationalize his future decisions based on Chryst's "more experience?" 

OK, I feel a little better....but not that much.  I cringe at the thought of #10 running out to lead that first drive vs. UW. 

[Velodoc]

"It was so bizarre that I wonder if there was something wrong with Costello.  Maybe Costello was coming off an unannounced practice injury and was only going to be used in an emergency?  Or he was being disciplined for some undisclosed reason?  Because this went way being stubborn and veered into the irrational.  There should have been several more interceptions.  In fact, prior to the first interception it was obvious that there was one coming if Keller kept throwing the way he was throwing--staring down his receivers and throwing late and behind, over and over and over."

I rarely contribute here, but I am so frustrated that I consider this part of my "post-game therapy."

I've had these same thoughts as the above quote.  If KJ is not hurt or not being disciplined, then I'm really confused.  Prior to this game, the stats on Chryst vs. Costello were not all that different, but watching each of them, to me, there has been significant but hard to quantify differences.  KJ seems to bring more energy to the huddle, he extends plays with his athleticism, seems to consider different target options and throws a better ball.  Considering KJ's relative lack of experience, it's my conclusion that we have yet to see the best of KJ and that his upside could be of exceedingly large proportions. 

At his best, Chryst is a serviceable QB.  But as one of the announcers said last night, after Chryst stared down Irwin prior to throwing to him, "After 13 starts, a QB needs to be able to go through his progressions."

While stats can be useful (body stats, game stats, whatever), football remains a game of intangibles.  Call it being a "gamer" or whatever.  Chryst does not have the "it."  KJ might.  But unless Shaw has an epiphany (or we find out KJ is in doghouse or hurt), things don't bode well vs. UW, WSU and ND. 

And it pisses me off, as an invested fan and alum, that we are wasting an incredibly talented group of receivers. 

After not playing KJ and sticking with Chryst for so long, will DS now rationalize his future decisions based on Chryst's "more experience?" 

OK, I feel a little better....but not that much.  I cringe at the thought of #10 running out to lead that first drive vs. UW. 

[Velodoc]

I meant WSU...but could be UW as well. 

[Velodoc]

I meant WSU...but could be UW as well. 

[Hank 91]

I've been debating for several hours about whether or not to include these thoughts in my recap, but I'll post them here. After watching David Shaw teams for seven years now and having only a handful of conversations with him during that time, I feel like I understand him completely. When things started looking really bad in the beginning of the second half, meaning that it became apparent we were just going to see more of what we saw in the first half, everyone (the announcers and virtually every tweet on my Twitter feed) seemed sure that we'd see Costello in for Chryst.

This was the moment when I knew we wouldn't. Actually, it was probably earlier than that.

Like it or not, David Shaw operates with a strict set of rules. He's the opposite of Les Miles, and I think Les Miles could be the key to understanding David Shaw. Miles was notorious for his unpredictable nature, both on the sidelines and in press conferences. All of that craziness got him two things -- a national championship and a pink slip. Unpredictability leads to inconsistency.

Shaw, meanwhile, has been predictably consistent. You can call that stubbornness, but I'm sure Shaw would describe it differently. His approach has produced the greatest stretch of success in program history. I could accept an argument that Les Miles might've found a national championship during that stretch, but I'm not sure he would've maintained the level of success Shaw has enjoyed.

But back to last night. I don't think Shaw was trying to prove a point, I think he was trying to win in the best way he knows how, the same as he does every week. He clearly believes in playing the quarterback he views as the best prepared. I guarantee that the believes that quarterback is Keller Chryst. When he has rotated quarterbacks in the past, it has never been about desperation, but always within the framework of the game plan, or so it appears from the outside looking in. When Costello didn't get the third series, I wondered if we'd see him at all. When he didn't get in at all in the first half, I knew we wouldn't see him. Even when Chryst was struggling in the second half, my opinion didn't change. Again, you can describe this as a weakness, but I don't think Shaw evaluates quarterbacks on a per play or per series basis. My guess is that his calculus takes into account the entire body of work, games and practices. He'll never make a gut decision. Les Miles would've pulled Chryst last night. Most coaches would've. Shaw didn't, and I wasn't surprised at all.

And just so we're clear -- I don't say any of this in an attempt to sway any of you. This is just my interpretation of the events last night.

[Hank 91]

I've been debating for several hours about whether or not to include these thoughts in my recap, but I'll post them here. After watching David Shaw teams for seven years now and having only a handful of conversations with him during that time, I feel like I understand him completely. When things started looking really bad in the beginning of the second half, meaning that it became apparent we were just going to see more of what we saw in the first half, everyone (the announcers and virtually every tweet on my Twitter feed) seemed sure that we'd see Costello in for Chryst.

This was the moment when I knew we wouldn't. Actually, it was probably earlier than that.

Like it or not, David Shaw operates with a strict set of rules. He's the opposite of Les Miles, and I think Les Miles could be the key to understanding David Shaw. Miles was notorious for his unpredictable nature, both on the sidelines and in press conferences. All of that craziness got him two things -- a national championship and a pink slip. Unpredictability leads to inconsistency.

Shaw, meanwhile, has been predictably consistent. You can call that stubbornness, but I'm sure Shaw would describe it differently. His approach has produced the greatest stretch of success in program history. I could accept an argument that Les Miles might've found a national championship during that stretch, but I'm not sure he would've maintained the level of success Shaw has enjoyed.

But back to last night. I don't think Shaw was trying to prove a point, I think he was trying to win in the best way he knows how, the same as he does every week. He clearly believes in playing the quarterback he views as the best prepared. I guarantee that the believes that quarterback is Keller Chryst. When he has rotated quarterbacks in the past, it has never been about desperation, but always within the framework of the game plan, or so it appears from the outside looking in. When Costello didn't get the third series, I wondered if we'd see him at all. When he didn't get in at all in the first half, I knew we wouldn't see him. Even when Chryst was struggling in the second half, my opinion didn't change. Again, you can describe this as a weakness, but I don't think Shaw evaluates quarterbacks on a per play or per series basis. My guess is that his calculus takes into account the entire body of work, games and practices. He'll never make a gut decision. Les Miles would've pulled Chryst last night. Most coaches would've. Shaw didn't, and I wasn't surprised at all.

And just so we're clear -- I don't say any of this in an attempt to sway any of you. This is just my interpretation of the events last night.

[OutsiderFan]

Thought this was a better thread for this post, so am copying it from another thread, since it is about Shaw on Chryst...

At the 3:35 mark: https://twitter.com/StanfordFball/status...2946086913

"Believing his own bullsh*t" as someone said in another thread, encapsulates it.  I didn't see receivers that were open and then the defense made great plays on the ball.  What I saw was a QB making it obvious who was getting the ball, waiting far too long to get the ball off, and when he did, laboring to get it to where he wanted it to go, or just throwing terrible balls period.

Bill Walsh would never play Chryst, because he embodies the #1 worst trait he believed a football player could have, which is inconsistency. You simply can't have a guy be a starter when he can go out and play like he did against Oregon one week, and then play like he did against Oregon State the next.  You simply can't build any kind of team consistency and set any standards for performance when you have someone who is so wildly inconsistent.

You're better off having someone you know for certain can't do something, but does other things consistently well, even if what he does well is limited, than have a guy who can do everything for the most part, just some of the time.  A coach like Shaw will say "I've seen him do this before, so I know he can do it," but he can't put the other players on the team who work their asses off, and the fans who invest emotional energy, money, and time, in a position to be dependent on such wild inconsistency, especially at the QB position.

[OutsiderFan]

Thought this was a better thread for this post, so am copying it from another thread, since it is about Shaw on Chryst...

At the 3:35 mark: https://twitter.com/StanfordFball/status...2946086913

"Believing his own bullsh*t" as someone said in another thread, encapsulates it.  I didn't see receivers that were open and then the defense made great plays on the ball.  What I saw was a QB making it obvious who was getting the ball, waiting far too long to get the ball off, and when he did, laboring to get it to where he wanted it to go, or just throwing terrible balls period.

Bill Walsh would never play Chryst, because he embodies the #1 worst trait he believed a football player could have, which is inconsistency. You simply can't have a guy be a starter when he can go out and play like he did against Oregon one week, and then play like he did against Oregon State the next.  You simply can't build any kind of team consistency and set any standards for performance when you have someone who is so wildly inconsistent.

You're better off having someone you know for certain can't do something, but does other things consistently well, even if what he does well is limited, than have a guy who can do everything for the most part, just some of the time.  A coach like Shaw will say "I've seen him do this before, so I know he can do it," but he can't put the other players on the team who work their asses off, and the fans who invest emotional energy, money, and time, in a position to be dependent on such wild inconsistency, especially at the QB position.

[OutsiderFan]

Hank, you are no doubt correct in your why explanation for Shaw's inability to make a change to what he planned.

That doesn't make it right, of course.  Anyone who knows anything about competition knows "everyone has a plan until the first punch is thrown."  It means those who can adapt on the fly are the ones who will succeed the most.  Competition is not like taking a test, where there is one right answer.  And there is a fine line between staying the course in terms of following the plan, and being overly impatient to change on the fly to meet different conditions than you planned to encounter.  Stanford doesn't seem to come even close to it, and I think by definition you won't win championships in college football unless you have an extreme sense of urgency to change what isn't working.  The games are far too meaningful to be overly patient.

[OutsiderFan]

Hank, you are no doubt correct in your why explanation for Shaw's inability to make a change to what he planned.

That doesn't make it right, of course.  Anyone who knows anything about competition knows "everyone has a plan until the first punch is thrown."  It means those who can adapt on the fly are the ones who will succeed the most.  Competition is not like taking a test, where there is one right answer.  And there is a fine line between staying the course in terms of following the plan, and being overly impatient to change on the fly to meet different conditions than you planned to encounter.  Stanford doesn't seem to come even close to it, and I think by definition you won't win championships in college football unless you have an extreme sense of urgency to change what isn't working.  The games are far too meaningful to be overly patient.

[jacketree]

[quote author=hurlburt88 link=topic=17799.msg208590#msg208590 date=1509098511]
I am in the camp of wondering if something is up with KJ either a ding or discipline.  Shaw and staff saw the same performance we did.

If KJ was hurt, I think he should've put in Burns. For me to say that means something. Chryst was Apple Maps Bad.
[/quote]

LOL.  I have a good story about trying to use Apple Maps, a closed Autostrada, following a blue dot through the streets of San GiovannIncarcioGiorigaALiri (something like that, with terrible robot Italiano), Napoli and the Sorrentine Peninsula; and returning a rental car to Hertz, located apparently about a mile off shore in the Mediterranean.  Almost cost my marriage. Definitely cost my spot in bed for a night.

[jacketree]

[quote author=hurlburt88 link=topic=17799.msg208590#msg208590 date=1509098511]
I am in the camp of wondering if something is up with KJ either a ding or discipline.  Shaw and staff saw the same performance we did.

If KJ was hurt, I think he should've put in Burns. For me to say that means something. Chryst was Apple Maps Bad.
[/quote]

LOL.  I have a good story about trying to use Apple Maps, a closed Autostrada, following a blue dot through the streets of San GiovannIncarcioGiorigaALiri (something like that, with terrible robot Italiano), Napoli and the Sorrentine Peninsula; and returning a rental car to Hertz, located apparently about a mile off shore in the Mediterranean.  Almost cost my marriage. Definitely cost my spot in bed for a night.