[burger]

To date, the federal government has been completely derelict in its response to the virus.  This is infuriating:

Oregon sent a letter to Vice President Mike Pence on March 3 asking for 400,000 N95 masks. For days, it got no response, and only by March 14 received its first shipment, of 36,800 masks. But there was a problem. Most of the equipment they got was well past the expiration date and so “wouldn’t be suitable for surgical settings,” the state said.

New York City also put in a request for more than 2 million masks and only received 76,000; all were expired, said Deanne Criswell, New York City’s emergency management commissioner. The city is also requesting additional beds for intensive care units and medical teams to staff a convention center that may be turned into a temporary medical facility.

Lots more examples here: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/us/po...corps.html

Trump spent weeks denying that this was a problem.  Now he seems to be spending most of his time (on twitter at least) lying about his earlier statements and defending his actions instead of actually doing something.  There are going to be avoidable deaths because of this shitshow.  And that's not even to mention the testing fiasco.

[burger]

To date, the federal government has been completely derelict in its response to the virus.  This is infuriating:

Oregon sent a letter to Vice President Mike Pence on March 3 asking for 400,000 N95 masks. For days, it got no response, and only by March 14 received its first shipment, of 36,800 masks. But there was a problem. Most of the equipment they got was well past the expiration date and so “wouldn’t be suitable for surgical settings,” the state said.

New York City also put in a request for more than 2 million masks and only received 76,000; all were expired, said Deanne Criswell, New York City’s emergency management commissioner. The city is also requesting additional beds for intensive care units and medical teams to staff a convention center that may be turned into a temporary medical facility.

Lots more examples here: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/us/po...corps.html

Trump spent weeks denying that this was a problem.  Now he seems to be spending most of his time (on twitter at least) lying about his earlier statements and defending his actions instead of actually doing something.  There are going to be avoidable deaths because of this shitshow.  And that's not even to mention the testing fiasco.

[BostonCard]

Although this forum is probably going to be a bit more lenient than our main forum with regards to the prohibitions on political discussion because a lot of coronavirus topics will necessarily touch on the response, which may get inherently political, I urge everyone to use restraint when touching on political and political-adjacent issues.  Specifically, I think things will go much better if we stick to describing the response rather than editorializing on them.

In this particular post, I'd recommend holding back on the characterization of the response as "disgusting".  Describing the response (or lack thereof) would adequately get the point across that in many cases, the federal response has not been adequate.

BC

[BostonCard]

Although this forum is probably going to be a bit more lenient than our main forum with regards to the prohibitions on political discussion because a lot of coronavirus topics will necessarily touch on the response, which may get inherently political, I urge everyone to use restraint when touching on political and political-adjacent issues.  Specifically, I think things will go much better if we stick to describing the response rather than editorializing on them.

In this particular post, I'd recommend holding back on the characterization of the response as "disgusting".  Describing the response (or lack thereof) would adequately get the point across that in many cases, the federal response has not been adequate.

BC

[burger]

I changed the title.  I don't see why I should have to tiptoe around this when the response has been so ineffectual so far.

[burger]

I changed the title.  I don't see why I should have to tiptoe around this when the response has been so ineffectual so far.

[OutsiderFan]

It is NEGLIGENCE to not check and see if known perishable products are viable before sending them out to be used. It's INCOMPETENCE to not know something can be perishable and send whatever you have on hand to be used.

As I think I said before, if FACTS become political or politically controversial, we might as well all just kill ourselves now.

[OutsiderFan]

It is NEGLIGENCE to not check and see if known perishable products are viable before sending them out to be used. It's INCOMPETENCE to not know something can be perishable and send whatever you have on hand to be used.

As I think I said before, if FACTS become political or politically controversial, we might as well all just kill ourselves now.

[WBB fan]

Although this forum is probably going to be a bit more lenient than our main forum with regards to the prohibitions on political discussion because a lot of coronavirus topics will necessarily touch on the response, which may get inherently political, I urge everyone to use restraint when touching on political and political-adjacent issues.  Specifically, I think things will go much better if we stick to describing the response rather than editorializing on them.

In this particular post, I'd recommend holding back on the characterization of the response as "disgusting".  Describing the response (or lack thereof) would adequately get the point across that in many cases, the federal response has not been adequate.

BC

Well put. I do hope people can take this to heart. As you say, describing the actual facts should be enough to make the point. Personally, I find myself thinking of all sorts of comments re who is doing -- or not doing -- things in response. But assigning blame is not useful in actually dealing with the situation. Assigning blame is just fine when you are deciding who to vote for, but that does not belong in any of these threads.

[WBB fan]

Although this forum is probably going to be a bit more lenient than our main forum with regards to the prohibitions on political discussion because a lot of coronavirus topics will necessarily touch on the response, which may get inherently political, I urge everyone to use restraint when touching on political and political-adjacent issues.  Specifically, I think things will go much better if we stick to describing the response rather than editorializing on them.

In this particular post, I'd recommend holding back on the characterization of the response as "disgusting".  Describing the response (or lack thereof) would adequately get the point across that in many cases, the federal response has not been adequate.

BC

Well put. I do hope people can take this to heart. As you say, describing the actual facts should be enough to make the point. Personally, I find myself thinking of all sorts of comments re who is doing -- or not doing -- things in response. But assigning blame is not useful in actually dealing with the situation. Assigning blame is just fine when you are deciding who to vote for, but that does not belong in any of these threads.

[burger]

\
Well put. I do hope people can take this to heart. As you say, describing the actual facts should be enough to make the point. Personally, I find myself thinking of all sorts of comments re who is doing -- or not doing -- things in response. But assigning blame is not useful in actually dealing with the situation. Assigning blame is just fine when you are deciding who to vote for, but that does not belong in any of these threads.

Assigning responsibility for government actions is critical for a few reasons: 1) there are elections coming up, and people should know what their elected officials are doing (or not) and the effects of those (in)actions; 2) (good) elected officials pay attention to public pressure, calls, letters, approval polls, etc. ; 3) being fully informed about what is going on requires knowing what governments at different levels are doing.  There is really no daylight between "knowing what your government agency x is doing" and "blaming the people in charge of agency x when they are doing the wrong thing."  4) Censorship is a terrible idea right now.  There is too much misinformation out there already.  If a national newspaper writes an article showing mistakes being made by a a government agency, it should be fair game to share it here.  And if someone sharing said article gets upset and uses some bad language, let's remember that there are literally millions of lives at stake here--that's the difference between the best and worst outcomes in the Imperial College models that everyone is talking about now.  So some inflamed feelings are going to happen, and we should accept it.

[burger]

\
Well put. I do hope people can take this to heart. As you say, describing the actual facts should be enough to make the point. Personally, I find myself thinking of all sorts of comments re who is doing -- or not doing -- things in response. But assigning blame is not useful in actually dealing with the situation. Assigning blame is just fine when you are deciding who to vote for, but that does not belong in any of these threads.

Assigning responsibility for government actions is critical for a few reasons: 1) there are elections coming up, and people should know what their elected officials are doing (or not) and the effects of those (in)actions; 2) (good) elected officials pay attention to public pressure, calls, letters, approval polls, etc. ; 3) being fully informed about what is going on requires knowing what governments at different levels are doing.  There is really no daylight between "knowing what your government agency x is doing" and "blaming the people in charge of agency x when they are doing the wrong thing."  4) Censorship is a terrible idea right now.  There is too much misinformation out there already.  If a national newspaper writes an article showing mistakes being made by a a government agency, it should be fair game to share it here.  And if someone sharing said article gets upset and uses some bad language, let's remember that there are literally millions of lives at stake here--that's the difference between the best and worst outcomes in the Imperial College models that everyone is talking about now.  So some inflamed feelings are going to happen, and we should accept it.

[chrisk]

The most relevant discussions for me and most people revolve around what is happening right now and what should happen in the coming days and weeks. There is plenty to talk about there without talking about previous actions or inactions.

[chrisk]

The most relevant discussions for me and most people revolve around what is happening right now and what should happen in the coming days and weeks. There is plenty to talk about there without talking about previous actions or inactions.

[BostonCard]

Also, we are all in this together, and the only way we are all going to beat this thing is working together.  To quote a former president:

"Americans who sent a message to the world that we have never been just a collection of individuals or a collection of red states and blue states. We are, and always will be, the United States of America."

The virus doesn't care if you are a supporter of the administration or a critic, and while some of the most affected states right now are "blue states", every single state in the country has reported at least one case of Covid-19 (West Virginia was the last one to report, last night).

BC

[BostonCard]

Also, we are all in this together, and the only way we are all going to beat this thing is working together.  To quote a former president:

"Americans who sent a message to the world that we have never been just a collection of individuals or a collection of red states and blue states. We are, and always will be, the United States of America."

The virus doesn't care if you are a supporter of the administration or a critic, and while some of the most affected states right now are "blue states", every single state in the country has reported at least one case of Covid-19 (West Virginia was the last one to report, last night).

BC

[admin]

Although this forum is probably going to be a bit more lenient than our main forum with regards to the prohibitions on political discussion because a lot of coronavirus topics will necessarily touch on the response, which may get inherently political, I urge everyone to use restraint when touching on political and political-adjacent issues.  Specifically, I think things will go much better if we stick to describing the response rather than editorializing on them.

In this particular post, I'd recommend holding back on the characterization of the response as "disgusting".  Describing the response (or lack thereof) would adequately get the point across that in many cases, the federal response has not been adequate.

BC

Well put. I do hope people can take this to heart. As you say, describing the actual facts should be enough to make the point. Personally, I find myself thinking of all sorts of comments re who is doing -- or not doing -- things in response. But assigning blame is not useful in actually dealing with the situation. Assigning blame is just fine when you are deciding who to vote for, but that does not belong in any of these threads.

This is the perspective that I support. 

Generally, avoid adjectives and adverbs. (Advice, not mandate). Let the information speak for itself.

[admin]

Although this forum is probably going to be a bit more lenient than our main forum with regards to the prohibitions on political discussion because a lot of coronavirus topics will necessarily touch on the response, which may get inherently political, I urge everyone to use restraint when touching on political and political-adjacent issues.  Specifically, I think things will go much better if we stick to describing the response rather than editorializing on them.

In this particular post, I'd recommend holding back on the characterization of the response as "disgusting".  Describing the response (or lack thereof) would adequately get the point across that in many cases, the federal response has not been adequate.

BC

Well put. I do hope people can take this to heart. As you say, describing the actual facts should be enough to make the point. Personally, I find myself thinking of all sorts of comments re who is doing -- or not doing -- things in response. But assigning blame is not useful in actually dealing with the situation. Assigning blame is just fine when you are deciding who to vote for, but that does not belong in any of these threads.

This is the perspective that I support. 

Generally, avoid adjectives and adverbs. (Advice, not mandate). Let the information speak for itself.

[burger]

That's fine--I'll keep the commentary to a minimum going forward and let the articles, etc. speak for themselves (because they do).

As for not dwelling on the past, I would just add that the article that I originally linked to is talking about things happening in the last week or two that are still problems (lack of PPE, lack of hospital beds, etc.).  So this is not bringing up ancient history--these are problems that have yet to be solved.

[burger]

That's fine--I'll keep the commentary to a minimum going forward and let the articles, etc. speak for themselves (because they do).

As for not dwelling on the past, I would just add that the article that I originally linked to is talking about things happening in the last week or two that are still problems (lack of PPE, lack of hospital beds, etc.).  So this is not bringing up ancient history--these are problems that have yet to be solved.

[OutsiderFan]

Sorry to add more fuel to the lack of response fire, but I'm an arsonist when it comes to burning down stupidity and incompetence:
https://www.propublica.org/article/the-t...stigations

[OutsiderFan]

Sorry to add more fuel to the lack of response fire, but I'm an arsonist when it comes to burning down stupidity and incompetence:
https://www.propublica.org/article/the-t...stigations

[BostonCard]

That's fine--I'll keep the commentary to a minimum going forward and let the articles, etc. speak for themselves (because they do).



As for not dwelling on the past, I would just add that the article that I originally linked to is talking about things happening in the last week or two that are still problems (lack of PPE, lack of hospital beds, etc.).  So this is not bringing up ancient history--these are problems that have yet to be solved.

Yes, but planning for a pandemic requires developing contingency plans and stockpiling needed supplies long before the pandemic hits.  Did you know that we have a reserve of ventilators?

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/coronav...79361.html

So that is good, but probably not enough.  Would be worth knowing how many are available and how that number was determined.

More broadly, though, while what we are seeing is poor execution during the crisis, what this really reflects is poor planning before the crisis.  Or to quote one of my favorite aphorisms, "Prior planning prevents piss poor performance".

BC

[BostonCard]

That's fine--I'll keep the commentary to a minimum going forward and let the articles, etc. speak for themselves (because they do).



As for not dwelling on the past, I would just add that the article that I originally linked to is talking about things happening in the last week or two that are still problems (lack of PPE, lack of hospital beds, etc.).  So this is not bringing up ancient history--these are problems that have yet to be solved.

Yes, but planning for a pandemic requires developing contingency plans and stockpiling needed supplies long before the pandemic hits.  Did you know that we have a reserve of ventilators?

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/coronav...79361.html

So that is good, but probably not enough.  Would be worth knowing how many are available and how that number was determined.

More broadly, though, while what we are seeing is poor execution during the crisis, what this really reflects is poor planning before the crisis.  Or to quote one of my favorite aphorisms, "Prior planning prevents piss poor performance".

BC

[burger]

That's fine--I'll keep the commentary to a minimum going forward and let the articles, etc. speak for themselves (because they do).

As for not dwelling on the past, I would just add that the article that I originally linked to is talking about things happening in the last week or two that are still problems (lack of PPE, lack of hospital beds, etc.).  So this is not bringing up ancient history--these are problems that have yet to be solved.

Yes, but planning for a pandemic requires developing contingency plans and stockpiling needed supplies long before the pandemic hits.  Did you know that we have a reserve of ventilators?

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/coronav...79361.html

So that is good, but probably not enough.  Would be worth knowing how many are available and how that number was determined.

More broadly, though, while what we are seeing is poor execution during the crisis, what this really reflects is poor planning before the crisis.  Or to quote one of my favorite aphorisms, "Prior planning prevents piss poor performance".

BC

That is not even close to remotely enough ventilators.  Read this: https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavir...story.html

Here's Trump's guidance on this issue (from the same article):

The United States, by contrast, has been slow to develop a national strategy for accelerating the production of ventilators. That appears to reflect in part the federal government’s sluggish reaction to the coronavirus, with President Donald Trump and others initially playing down the threat. This week, Trump urged governors to find ways to procure new ventilators. “Try getting it yourselves,” he said.

Planning was inadequate, mostly in the sense that we squandered the advance notice we had.  It was obvious to many epidemiologists by mid-January that this was going to spread, but federal response didn't really begin until March.

[burger]

That's fine--I'll keep the commentary to a minimum going forward and let the articles, etc. speak for themselves (because they do).

As for not dwelling on the past, I would just add that the article that I originally linked to is talking about things happening in the last week or two that are still problems (lack of PPE, lack of hospital beds, etc.).  So this is not bringing up ancient history--these are problems that have yet to be solved.

Yes, but planning for a pandemic requires developing contingency plans and stockpiling needed supplies long before the pandemic hits.  Did you know that we have a reserve of ventilators?

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/coronav...79361.html

So that is good, but probably not enough.  Would be worth knowing how many are available and how that number was determined.

More broadly, though, while what we are seeing is poor execution during the crisis, what this really reflects is poor planning before the crisis.  Or to quote one of my favorite aphorisms, "Prior planning prevents piss poor performance".

BC

That is not even close to remotely enough ventilators.  Read this: https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavir...story.html

Here's Trump's guidance on this issue (from the same article):

The United States, by contrast, has been slow to develop a national strategy for accelerating the production of ventilators. That appears to reflect in part the federal government’s sluggish reaction to the coronavirus, with President Donald Trump and others initially playing down the threat. This week, Trump urged governors to find ways to procure new ventilators. “Try getting it yourselves,” he said.

Planning was inadequate, mostly in the sense that we squandered the advance notice we had.  It was obvious to many epidemiologists by mid-January that this was going to spread, but federal response didn't really begin until March.

[BostonCard]

Here's another article discussing how the Administration's healthcare regulatory rollbacks are having an adverse effect on the fight against coronavirus.

https://apple.news/AqNUFk6UAQr2mVJY-LF7S8w

BC

[BostonCard]

Here's another article discussing how the Administration's healthcare regulatory rollbacks are having an adverse effect on the fight against coronavirus.

https://apple.news/AqNUFk6UAQr2mVJY-LF7S8w

BC

[Leftcoast]

This could get ugly if we let politics enter so I support the larger point and will keep criticisms oblique and to a minimum. 

In fact ..."All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds".  <coff, coff>

[Leftcoast]

This could get ugly if we let politics enter so I support the larger point and will keep criticisms oblique and to a minimum. 

In fact ..."All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds".  <coff, coff>

[WBB fan]

This could get ugly if we let politics enter so I support the larger point and will keep criticisms oblique and to a minimum. 

In fact ..."All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds".  <coff, coff>

pangloss was a pessimist? Optimist? Deluded?

[WBB fan]

This could get ugly if we let politics enter so I support the larger point and will keep criticisms oblique and to a minimum. 

In fact ..."All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds".  <coff, coff>

pangloss was a pessimist? Optimist? Deluded?

[M T]

It is NEGLIGENCE to not check and see if known perishable products are viable before sending them out to be used. It's INCOMPETENCE to not know something can be perishable and send whatever you have on hand to be used.

Are you also calling the release of expired N95 masks by California negligence? 
This strategy is spelled out by the CDC as a way to use the unexpired masks in the more critical situations while using the expired, but specially-stored, masks for less critical situations.

It is easy to misunderstand things when we haven't thought it through as others have.  I find myself getting very upset about things and I may also vent those frustrations.  But let's try to the Cardboard from being a flame board.

[M T]

It is NEGLIGENCE to not check and see if known perishable products are viable before sending them out to be used. It's INCOMPETENCE to not know something can be perishable and send whatever you have on hand to be used.

Are you also calling the release of expired N95 masks by California negligence? 
This strategy is spelled out by the CDC as a way to use the unexpired masks in the more critical situations while using the expired, but specially-stored, masks for less critical situations.

It is easy to misunderstand things when we haven't thought it through as others have.  I find myself getting very upset about things and I may also vent those frustrations.  But let's try to the Cardboard from being a flame board.

[burger]

Hospitals are on the verge of running out of protective gear: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/19/us/ho...rtage.html

Meanwhile, Trump invoked the Defense Production Act to channel private production to national needs, but he is not using it yet because reasons. [tweet]https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1240391871026864130[/tweet]And I guess I can't use any adjectives to describe this lack of action because it would be political.  So fill in your own.

[burger]

Hospitals are on the verge of running out of protective gear: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/19/us/ho...rtage.html

Meanwhile, Trump invoked the Defense Production Act to channel private production to national needs, but he is not using it yet because reasons. [tweet]https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1240391871026864130[/tweet]And I guess I can't use any adjectives to describe this lack of action because it would be political.  So fill in your own.

[burger]

ER doctor begging for masks on Nextdoor: [tweet]https://twitter.com/jbendery/status/1240360915544965121[/tweet]Maybe the federal government could do something about this?

Also, an HHS pandemic simulation last year produced almost exactly what we are seeing now: shortages in ventilators, respirators, etc.  But even with months of advance notice when this began in China, the primary response from the top of the federal government was to call this a hoax. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/19/us/po...break.html

[burger]

ER doctor begging for masks on Nextdoor: [tweet]https://twitter.com/jbendery/status/1240360915544965121[/tweet]Maybe the federal government could do something about this?

Also, an HHS pandemic simulation last year produced almost exactly what we are seeing now: shortages in ventilators, respirators, etc.  But even with months of advance notice when this began in China, the primary response from the top of the federal government was to call this a hoax. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/19/us/po...break.html

[magnus]

ER doctor begging for masks on Nextdoor: https://twitter.com/jbendery/status/1240360915544965121

Maybe the federal government could do something about this?

Also, an HHS pandemic simulation last year produced almost exactly what we are seeing now: shortages in ventilators, respirators, etc.  But even with months of advance notice when this began in China, the primary response from the top of the federal government was to call this a hoax. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/19/us/po...break.html

It's not a good sign when the CDC suggests using bandanas in the absence of protective masks.

[magnus]

ER doctor begging for masks on Nextdoor: https://twitter.com/jbendery/status/1240360915544965121

Maybe the federal government could do something about this?

Also, an HHS pandemic simulation last year produced almost exactly what we are seeing now: shortages in ventilators, respirators, etc.  But even with months of advance notice when this began in China, the primary response from the top of the federal government was to call this a hoax. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/19/us/po...break.html

It's not a good sign when the CDC suggests using bandanas in the absence of protective masks.