[d4cohn]

HARBAUGH built the program. Shaw rode his coattails.

I don't think Harbaugh had anything to do with recruiting CMac, Blake Martinez, Bryce Love,
and really any of the players on the 2015 Rose Bowl team other than the fifth year seniors.

Harbaugh went to 1 BCS/NY6 Bowl (and it wasn't a Rose Bowl and he never won the conference). Shaw has been to 4.

---

No BC it is reality. The program went stale in 2019 and now is totally broken.

I will give Shaw credit for the call on the Symonds pass. However McKee needed to unload right away. Probably game over at that point.

That may well be the case.  The program is not in a good place right now.  But anyone who thinks Shaw is going anywhere anytime soon is deluded.  I will remind you that five years into his tenure, Haase has exactly one winning conference season and no NCAA tournament appearances, and he is headed to his sixth season.  This after his predecessor was at Stanford for eight years on the strength of two NIT championships and one NCAA tournament appearance (and two winning conference seasons).  You guys may hate the idea, but Shaw would probably have to get to 2025 without another winning season to even be on the hot seat.  And even once he’s gone, we are at least as likely to hire the next Teevens or Harris as we are the next Harbaugh.

You might as well hope Shaw somehow rights the ship, and that we surprise some folks in the last four games this year.  I’m not Pollyanna here; 1-3 seems most likely, and 0-4 is surely possible.  But that wouldn’t make me happy on the misguided notion that the grass is somehow greener if we lose and rid ourselves of Shaw (not that we will).

BC

No disagreements here with BC (and yes, tonight was a brutal game, perhaps even worse than the 2014 Utah double OT home loss)

[d4cohn]

HARBAUGH built the program. Shaw rode his coattails.

I don't think Harbaugh had anything to do with recruiting CMac, Blake Martinez, Bryce Love,
and really any of the players on the 2015 Rose Bowl team other than the fifth year seniors.

Harbaugh went to 1 BCS/NY6 Bowl (and it wasn't a Rose Bowl and he never won the conference). Shaw has been to 4.

---

No BC it is reality. The program went stale in 2019 and now is totally broken.

I will give Shaw credit for the call on the Symonds pass. However McKee needed to unload right away. Probably game over at that point.

That may well be the case.  The program is not in a good place right now.  But anyone who thinks Shaw is going anywhere anytime soon is deluded.  I will remind you that five years into his tenure, Haase has exactly one winning conference season and no NCAA tournament appearances, and he is headed to his sixth season.  This after his predecessor was at Stanford for eight years on the strength of two NIT championships and one NCAA tournament appearance (and two winning conference seasons).  You guys may hate the idea, but Shaw would probably have to get to 2025 without another winning season to even be on the hot seat.  And even once he’s gone, we are at least as likely to hire the next Teevens or Harris as we are the next Harbaugh.

You might as well hope Shaw somehow rights the ship, and that we surprise some folks in the last four games this year.  I’m not Pollyanna here; 1-3 seems most likely, and 0-4 is surely possible.  But that wouldn’t make me happy on the misguided notion that the grass is somehow greener if we lose and rid ourselves of Shaw (not that we will).

BC

No disagreements here with BC (and yes, tonight was a brutal game, perhaps even worse than the 2014 Utah double OT home loss)

[winflop]

You guys almost sound giddy we lost.  You’d rather be right about Shaw than see us win.

BC

No way in Hell. I hate that we lost. I hate that we stink. I hate that our coaches suck. But it is what it is

---

I think my visceral reaction to this loss is that it was so damn boring. It was like a Dawkins game

[winflop]

You guys almost sound giddy we lost.  You’d rather be right about Shaw than see us win.

BC

No way in Hell. I hate that we lost. I hate that we stink. I hate that our coaches suck. But it is what it is

---

I think my visceral reaction to this loss is that it was so damn boring. It was like a Dawkins game

[Austroturf]

You guys almost sound giddy we lost.  You’d rather be right about Shaw than see us win.

BC

No way in Hell. I hate that we lost. I hate that we stink. I hate that our coaches suck. But it is what it is

---

I think my visceral reaction to this loss is that it was so damn boring. It was like a Dawkins game

Same emotion from my side.  And I have zero expectations that things are going to get better.  Why should they?  What will spark a new golden era in Cardinal football? New ideas, new schemes, better players?  Where would they be coming from?

[Austroturf]

You guys almost sound giddy we lost.  You’d rather be right about Shaw than see us win.

BC

No way in Hell. I hate that we lost. I hate that we stink. I hate that our coaches suck. But it is what it is

---

I think my visceral reaction to this loss is that it was so damn boring. It was like a Dawkins game

Same emotion from my side.  And I have zero expectations that things are going to get better.  Why should they?  What will spark a new golden era in Cardinal football? New ideas, new schemes, better players?  Where would they be coming from?

[newguy]

i'm concerned about our ability to block.

[newguy]

i'm concerned about our ability to block.

[BostonCard]

Somehow, when we had the ball with 3 minutes and change remaining, I had this horrible premonition that Shaw would turtle, we would kick it back and Washington would win on a last second FG.  Turned out to be a TD and 2-pt. conversion, but the result is the same.  Another L.  Just sad.

Note that we actually tried a pass play on third down.  I had my brother texting me asking why do we didn’t try to run on third and four (answer, because we don’t have a good run game).  But turtle going on third down would have given the ball back to Washington with 2:20, left, not 3 min, and might have forced Washington to pass a few more times.  Who knows, maybe Morris, who has a ton of INts this year tries to squeeze one where it shouldn’t go and we intercept it to seal the game.

Either way, it was really bad clock management by Shaw.  The only time he should have called time out was on a fourth down right before the kicker was to kick.

BC

Yes, but running Austin Jones twice into the pile on the first two downs didn't do much to move the clock, since UW had two TOs in their pocket.  Our problem is a fundamental inability to move the ball (265 yards total offense), but when you need to move the ball downfield to seal the victory and have no run game, and then you decide to run it twice when you know the opponent can stop the clock, then it's almost a decision to hand the ball back with plenty of time, which we did. And Sanborn's miserable punt did not help matters.

I agree that it had been too early to turtle, given that we did not have any semblance of a run game.  We should have just played for a couple of first downs, and not worried about forcing Washington to burn time outs. We needed to run at least six plays to put UW into desperation mode, and the best way to do that would have been to run a pass play on first or second down.  But having forced UW to use both of its time outs, you could make the case that running it one more time would have been smarter than a play that stopped the clock.  I don’t think, however, that was the case.  It was a decent play call, with a pretty good chance to get a first down.  And had we gotten a first down, we could have left UW less than a minute running it into the pile three times.

Like the WSU game, we had a chance to win late and let it slip through our fingers, which is frustrating.  But, I didn’t think we outplayed WSU and didn’t think we outplayed UW, so it is hard to feel too broken up about the losses.

We need a better offensive line, we need our injured wide receivers back, and we need some semblance of a defensive line that doesn’t give up six, seven, eight yards each time the opponent’s running back touches the ball.  It is tough to be optimistic about the rest of the year.  Next year May be better on the offensive side of the ball, but it will be really tough running out young and inexperienced defensive linemen.

BC

[BostonCard]

Somehow, when we had the ball with 3 minutes and change remaining, I had this horrible premonition that Shaw would turtle, we would kick it back and Washington would win on a last second FG.  Turned out to be a TD and 2-pt. conversion, but the result is the same.  Another L.  Just sad.

Note that we actually tried a pass play on third down.  I had my brother texting me asking why do we didn’t try to run on third and four (answer, because we don’t have a good run game).  But turtle going on third down would have given the ball back to Washington with 2:20, left, not 3 min, and might have forced Washington to pass a few more times.  Who knows, maybe Morris, who has a ton of INts this year tries to squeeze one where it shouldn’t go and we intercept it to seal the game.

Either way, it was really bad clock management by Shaw.  The only time he should have called time out was on a fourth down right before the kicker was to kick.

BC

Yes, but running Austin Jones twice into the pile on the first two downs didn't do much to move the clock, since UW had two TOs in their pocket.  Our problem is a fundamental inability to move the ball (265 yards total offense), but when you need to move the ball downfield to seal the victory and have no run game, and then you decide to run it twice when you know the opponent can stop the clock, then it's almost a decision to hand the ball back with plenty of time, which we did. And Sanborn's miserable punt did not help matters.

I agree that it had been too early to turtle, given that we did not have any semblance of a run game.  We should have just played for a couple of first downs, and not worried about forcing Washington to burn time outs. We needed to run at least six plays to put UW into desperation mode, and the best way to do that would have been to run a pass play on first or second down.  But having forced UW to use both of its time outs, you could make the case that running it one more time would have been smarter than a play that stopped the clock.  I don’t think, however, that was the case.  It was a decent play call, with a pretty good chance to get a first down.  And had we gotten a first down, we could have left UW less than a minute running it into the pile three times.

Like the WSU game, we had a chance to win late and let it slip through our fingers, which is frustrating.  But, I didn’t think we outplayed WSU and didn’t think we outplayed UW, so it is hard to feel too broken up about the losses.

We need a better offensive line, we need our injured wide receivers back, and we need some semblance of a defensive line that doesn’t give up six, seven, eight yards each time the opponent’s running back touches the ball.  It is tough to be optimistic about the rest of the year.  Next year May be better on the offensive side of the ball, but it will be really tough running out young and inexperienced defensive linemen.

BC

[cnorx]

The maddening thing about Shaw’s teams these past few years is that they are the embodiment of “any given Saturday.”  One week they can knock off a top ten team and look like world beaters, the next week they slew walk through a loss to a bottom-dweller in our conference. That is the one consistent thing about Shaw’s recent teams - they play to the level of their competition, up or down. 

Here is the text I sent to a fellow alum at kickoff - “This is the kind of game Stanford should easily win if they don’t play down to washinton’s level.” 

Sadly, that is what we did. 

Personally, this game was the breaking point for me on Shaw. I hate to say it but I just don’t have any faith that things are going to turn around. I also have zero faith that he knows what he is doing in the final stages of a game in which we are ahead. 

On the other hand, I don’t know who would come in and improve upon the current state of affairs. But to see how far the program has fallen, both in terms of on-field success and fan support, is truly alarming. The status quo seems untenable.

[cnorx]

The maddening thing about Shaw’s teams these past few years is that they are the embodiment of “any given Saturday.”  One week they can knock off a top ten team and look like world beaters, the next week they slew walk through a loss to a bottom-dweller in our conference. That is the one consistent thing about Shaw’s recent teams - they play to the level of their competition, up or down. 

Here is the text I sent to a fellow alum at kickoff - “This is the kind of game Stanford should easily win if they don’t play down to washinton’s level.” 

Sadly, that is what we did. 

Personally, this game was the breaking point for me on Shaw. I hate to say it but I just don’t have any faith that things are going to turn around. I also have zero faith that he knows what he is doing in the final stages of a game in which we are ahead. 

On the other hand, I don’t know who would come in and improve upon the current state of affairs. But to see how far the program has fallen, both in terms of on-field success and fan support, is truly alarming. The status quo seems untenable.

[BostonCard]

You guys almost sound giddy we lost.  You’d rather be right about Shaw than see us win.

BC

No way in Hell. I hate that we lost. I hate that we stink. I hate that our coaches suck. But it is what it is

---

I think my visceral reaction to this loss is that it was so damn boring. It was like a Dawkins game

Same emotion from my side.  And I have zero expectations that things are going to get better.  Why should they?  What will spark a new golden era in Cardinal football? New ideas, new schemes, better players?  Where would they be coming from?

ITs not the lack of creativity that’s the problem.  I mean UW beat us with about the worlds most boring game plan: run it at Stanford until they can show they can stop you.  Ironically, we had the more creative fakes.  But we couldn’t do the basic stuff well, like open a hole for the running back, or hit the open hole on the few times one was open, or give the QB time to throw the ball, or get any separation by the wide receivers, or, on the defensive side, bring the opposing player down when you hit them.  If we could somehow do all that stuff, I guarantee you that our offense would look super dynamic.  But until our guys get the fundamentals down, nothing that the brain trust calls will somehow make up for it.

BC

[BostonCard]

You guys almost sound giddy we lost.  You’d rather be right about Shaw than see us win.

BC

No way in Hell. I hate that we lost. I hate that we stink. I hate that our coaches suck. But it is what it is

---

I think my visceral reaction to this loss is that it was so damn boring. It was like a Dawkins game

Same emotion from my side.  And I have zero expectations that things are going to get better.  Why should they?  What will spark a new golden era in Cardinal football? New ideas, new schemes, better players?  Where would they be coming from?

ITs not the lack of creativity that’s the problem.  I mean UW beat us with about the worlds most boring game plan: run it at Stanford until they can show they can stop you.  Ironically, we had the more creative fakes.  But we couldn’t do the basic stuff well, like open a hole for the running back, or hit the open hole on the few times one was open, or give the QB time to throw the ball, or get any separation by the wide receivers, or, on the defensive side, bring the opposing player down when you hit them.  If we could somehow do all that stuff, I guarantee you that our offense would look super dynamic.  But until our guys get the fundamentals down, nothing that the brain trust calls will somehow make up for it.

BC

[Austroturf]

You guys almost sound giddy we lost.  You’d rather be right about Shaw than see us win.

BC

No way in Hell. I hate that we lost. I hate that we stink. I hate that our coaches suck. But it is what it is

---

I think my visceral reaction to this loss is that it was so damn boring. It was like a Dawkins game

Same emotion from my side.  And I have zero expectations that things are going to get better.  Why should they?  What will spark a new golden era in Cardinal football? New ideas, new schemes, better players?  Where would they be coming from?

ITs not the lack of creativity that’s the problem.  I mean UW beat us with about the worlds most boring game plan: run it at Stanford until they can show they can stop you.  Ironically, we had the more creative fakes.  But we couldn’t do the basic stuff well, like open a hole for the running back, or hit the open hole on the few times one was open, or give the QB time to throw the ball, or get any separation by the wide receivers, or, on the defensive side, bring the opposing player down when you hit them.  If we could somehow do all that stuff, I guarantee you that our offense would look super dynamic.  But until our guys get the fundamentals down, nothing that the brain trust calls will somehow make up for it.

BC

I'm not looking for fancy or snazzy play-calling.  I am OK with smash-mouth, up-the-middle football if it is working.  When I refer to new schemes or new ideas, I am not asking for an uptempo spread offense with tricks.  But this team currently has no identity.  It isn't anything.  For the first half of the last decade, Stanford football had a clear identity.  It's gone missing, and what's left is a muddle.  Maybe I should have said: "Where will any ideas and schemes come from?"  Right now, the program is void of direction.

[Austroturf]

You guys almost sound giddy we lost.  You’d rather be right about Shaw than see us win.

BC

No way in Hell. I hate that we lost. I hate that we stink. I hate that our coaches suck. But it is what it is

---

I think my visceral reaction to this loss is that it was so damn boring. It was like a Dawkins game

Same emotion from my side.  And I have zero expectations that things are going to get better.  Why should they?  What will spark a new golden era in Cardinal football? New ideas, new schemes, better players?  Where would they be coming from?

ITs not the lack of creativity that’s the problem.  I mean UW beat us with about the worlds most boring game plan: run it at Stanford until they can show they can stop you.  Ironically, we had the more creative fakes.  But we couldn’t do the basic stuff well, like open a hole for the running back, or hit the open hole on the few times one was open, or give the QB time to throw the ball, or get any separation by the wide receivers, or, on the defensive side, bring the opposing player down when you hit them.  If we could somehow do all that stuff, I guarantee you that our offense would look super dynamic.  But until our guys get the fundamentals down, nothing that the brain trust calls will somehow make up for it.

BC

I'm not looking for fancy or snazzy play-calling.  I am OK with smash-mouth, up-the-middle football if it is working.  When I refer to new schemes or new ideas, I am not asking for an uptempo spread offense with tricks.  But this team currently has no identity.  It isn't anything.  For the first half of the last decade, Stanford football had a clear identity.  It's gone missing, and what's left is a muddle.  Maybe I should have said: "Where will any ideas and schemes come from?"  Right now, the program is void of direction.

[teejers1]

I don't think Harbaugh had anything to do with recruiting CMac, Blake Martinez, Bryce Love,
and really any of the players on the 2015 Rose Bowl team other than the fifth year seniors.

Harbaugh went to 1 BCS/NY6 Bowl (and it wasn't a Rose Bowl and he never won the conference). Shaw has been to 4.

You actually believing the above is part of the problem.

Shaw was able to recruit in 2011, 2012, 2013 period with football-firsters because Harbaugh had left him a Top 5 program, including complete STUDS on D that allowed the team to win a lot, despite Shaw calling the shots on O.  Maybe C-Mac comes to Stanford anyway, because of his old man's ties, but tell me this:  if C-Mac were a recruit today, do you think he would choose Stanford?

[teejers1]

I don't think Harbaugh had anything to do with recruiting CMac, Blake Martinez, Bryce Love,
and really any of the players on the 2015 Rose Bowl team other than the fifth year seniors.

Harbaugh went to 1 BCS/NY6 Bowl (and it wasn't a Rose Bowl and he never won the conference). Shaw has been to 4.

You actually believing the above is part of the problem.

Shaw was able to recruit in 2011, 2012, 2013 period with football-firsters because Harbaugh had left him a Top 5 program, including complete STUDS on D that allowed the team to win a lot, despite Shaw calling the shots on O.  Maybe C-Mac comes to Stanford anyway, because of his old man's ties, but tell me this:  if C-Mac were a recruit today, do you think he would choose Stanford?

[Phogge]

At the very least Anderson must go. No sacks, no TO’s. He’s never been an attacker.

[Phogge]

At the very least Anderson must go. No sacks, no TO’s. He’s never been an attacker.

[d4cohn]

I don't think Harbaugh had anything to do with recruiting CMac, Blake Martinez, Bryce Love,
and really any of the players on the 2015 Rose Bowl team other than the fifth year seniors.

Harbaugh went to 1 BCS/NY6 Bowl (and it wasn't a Rose Bowl and he never won the conference). Shaw has been to 4.

You actually believing the above is part of the problem.

Shaw was able to recruit in 2011, 2012, 2013 period with football-firsters because Harbaugh had left him a Top 5 program, including complete STUDS on D that allowed the team to win a lot, despite Shaw calling the shots on O.  Maybe C-Mac comes to Stanford anyway, because of his old man's ties, but tell me this:  if C-Mac were a recruit today, do you think he would choose Stanford? 

For the love of god, people, wake the eff up.  Shaw is pile-driving this program right down the drain.

I am class of 2015 (so I was on campus during this era). I think the Stanford recruit in 2010 fits the same general profile as the Stanford recruit in 2020 (high achievers on both the football field and in the classroom). I doubt many if any of the players cared only about football, or didn't at least put academics on equal billing with football. If anything, the players on those teams stayed in school longer (like Luck to graduate with his undergrad degree even if he was clearly ready for the pros after the 2010 season) than the top players do now (which I think, in part, explains some of our decline in performance, because it makes it harder for us to build up depth, and forces us to play more inexperienced players when players move on to the pros). 

Also, we are recruiting top 2-3 classes in the Pac at least somewhat frequently, so we are getting plenty of talented players now (so I don't think football-firsters are necessarily the answer even if that is who we were recruiting). 

My dad is a UM alum (so I follow a fair amount of Michigan football). Harbaugh now has Michigan resources (so as much if not more money without Stanford's stringent academic requirements) and still hasn't been to a Rose Bowl, won a division title, or won a conference championship game. He is 0'fer against his biggest rival, and now has a losing record against MSU after losing again to his in-state rival that has mostly been known more for its basketball team. 

Your argument about Jim doing everything for Shaw would be more convincing if Jim actually achieved some of these accomplishments that Shaw has in his 10 years on the Farm (and Jim has now coached in college at two different P5 schools for 10+ years combined).

[d4cohn]

I don't think Harbaugh had anything to do with recruiting CMac, Blake Martinez, Bryce Love,
and really any of the players on the 2015 Rose Bowl team other than the fifth year seniors.

Harbaugh went to 1 BCS/NY6 Bowl (and it wasn't a Rose Bowl and he never won the conference). Shaw has been to 4.

You actually believing the above is part of the problem.

Shaw was able to recruit in 2011, 2012, 2013 period with football-firsters because Harbaugh had left him a Top 5 program, including complete STUDS on D that allowed the team to win a lot, despite Shaw calling the shots on O.  Maybe C-Mac comes to Stanford anyway, because of his old man's ties, but tell me this:  if C-Mac were a recruit today, do you think he would choose Stanford? 

For the love of god, people, wake the eff up.  Shaw is pile-driving this program right down the drain.

I am class of 2015 (so I was on campus during this era). I think the Stanford recruit in 2010 fits the same general profile as the Stanford recruit in 2020 (high achievers on both the football field and in the classroom). I doubt many if any of the players cared only about football, or didn't at least put academics on equal billing with football. If anything, the players on those teams stayed in school longer (like Luck to graduate with his undergrad degree even if he was clearly ready for the pros after the 2010 season) than the top players do now (which I think, in part, explains some of our decline in performance, because it makes it harder for us to build up depth, and forces us to play more inexperienced players when players move on to the pros). 

Also, we are recruiting top 2-3 classes in the Pac at least somewhat frequently, so we are getting plenty of talented players now (so I don't think football-firsters are necessarily the answer even if that is who we were recruiting). 

My dad is a UM alum (so I follow a fair amount of Michigan football). Harbaugh now has Michigan resources (so as much if not more money without Stanford's stringent academic requirements) and still hasn't been to a Rose Bowl, won a division title, or won a conference championship game. He is 0'fer against his biggest rival, and now has a losing record against MSU after losing again to his in-state rival that has mostly been known more for its basketball team. 

Your argument about Jim doing everything for Shaw would be more convincing if Jim actually achieved some of these accomplishments that Shaw has in his 10 years on the Farm (and Jim has now coached in college at two different P5 schools for 10+ years combined).

[PAsportsfan]

Since this is a Stanford message board, when posters defend Shaw based on his early coaching accomplishments I just assume they are “book smart” and not “sport smart”.

[PAsportsfan]

Since this is a Stanford message board, when posters defend Shaw based on his early coaching accomplishments I just assume they are “book smart” and not “sport smart”.

[Austroturf]

HARBAUGH built the program. Shaw rode his coattails.

Harbaugh went to 1 BCS/NY6 Bowl (and it wasn't a Rose Bowl and he never won the conference). Shaw has been to 4.

---

I have two problems with this statement. First, Harbaugh was only head coach of Stanford for 4 years.  Second, he inherited a totally broken program and had to rebuild it from the bottom up.  It is therefore ridiculous to compare Harbaugh's accomplishments at Stanford with those of Shaw, who inherited a top ten program and has had 11 seasons at the helm.  Shaw was masterful in taking over Harbaugh's program and producing some marvelous results in the years immediately following.  That is wholly to his credit.  But he also wholly owns the current decline, which is the result of his leadership, his coaches and his players.  

Also, it makes no sense to compare Harbaugh's current track record at Michigan to anything Shaw has done at Stanford.  Michigan plays in a different conference, has a different schedule and a different history.  No comparison.  I wonder how many times Stanford would have beaten Ohio State in the last 7 years.  Once maybe, in 2015.  

And for what it's worth, I would prefer to be 7-1 after a hard-fought disappointing loss to another top ten program than 3-5 after a miserable and disappointing game vs. another Pac-12 bottom-feeder.  Yes, the natives in Ann Arbor may be calling for Harbaugh's head, but there are worse places to be than 7-1.  Cardinal fans know that.

[Austroturf]

HARBAUGH built the program. Shaw rode his coattails.

Harbaugh went to 1 BCS/NY6 Bowl (and it wasn't a Rose Bowl and he never won the conference). Shaw has been to 4.

---

I have two problems with this statement. First, Harbaugh was only head coach of Stanford for 4 years.  Second, he inherited a totally broken program and had to rebuild it from the bottom up.  It is therefore ridiculous to compare Harbaugh's accomplishments at Stanford with those of Shaw, who inherited a top ten program and has had 11 seasons at the helm.  Shaw was masterful in taking over Harbaugh's program and producing some marvelous results in the years immediately following.  That is wholly to his credit.  But he also wholly owns the current decline, which is the result of his leadership, his coaches and his players.  

Also, it makes no sense to compare Harbaugh's current track record at Michigan to anything Shaw has done at Stanford.  Michigan plays in a different conference, has a different schedule and a different history.  No comparison.  I wonder how many times Stanford would have beaten Ohio State in the last 7 years.  Once maybe, in 2015.  

And for what it's worth, I would prefer to be 7-1 after a hard-fought disappointing loss to another top ten program than 3-5 after a miserable and disappointing game vs. another Pac-12 bottom-feeder.  Yes, the natives in Ann Arbor may be calling for Harbaugh's head, but there are worse places to be than 7-1.  Cardinal fans know that.

[Maple Leaf]

Feel for the kids on the team who appear from watching on TV are playing hard.  I just hope that the root of the problem is not institutional/administrative where the people at the top of the university have no interest in having competitive sports programs.

[Maple Leaf]

Feel for the kids on the team who appear from watching on TV are playing hard.  I just hope that the root of the problem is not institutional/administrative where the people at the top of the university have no interest in having competitive sports programs.

[teejers1]

HARBAUGH built the program. Shaw rode his coattails.

Harbaugh went to 1 BCS/NY6 Bowl (and it wasn't a Rose Bowl and he never won the conference). Shaw has been to 4.

---

I have two problems with this statement. First, Harbaugh was only head coach of Stanford for 4 years.  Second, he inherited a totally broken program and had to rebuild it from the bottom up.  It is therefore ridiculous to compare Harbaugh's accomplishments at Stanford with those of Shaw, who inherited a top ten program and has had 11 seasons at the helm.  Shaw was masterful in taking over Harbaugh's program and producing some marvelous results in the years immediately following.  That is wholly to his credit.  But he also wholly owns the current decline, which is the result of his leadership, his coaches and his players.  

Also, it makes no sense to compare Harbaugh's current track record at Michigan to anything Shaw has done at Stanford.  Michigan plays in a different conference, has a different schedule and a different history.  No comparison.  I wonder how many times Stanford would have beaten Ohio State in the last 7 years.  Once maybe, in 2015.  

And for what it's worth, I would prefer to be 7-1 after a hard-fought disappointing loss to another top ten program than 3-5 after a miserable and disappointing game vs. another Pac-12 bottom-feeder.  Yes, the natives in Ann Arbor may be calling for Harbaugh's head, but there are worse places to be than 7-1.  Cardinal fans know that.

It's not just the record.  The Michigan-MSU game was an incredibly compelling game . . . one of the best college football games I've seen in a long time.  Tight game; great plays made on both sides; great atmosphere, etc.  Those were 2 teams making plays against pretty good (understatement) defenses.  Stanford was at that level not that long ago.

And now where are things?  (And this coming Friday will quite possibly be worse).

[teejers1]

HARBAUGH built the program. Shaw rode his coattails.

Harbaugh went to 1 BCS/NY6 Bowl (and it wasn't a Rose Bowl and he never won the conference). Shaw has been to 4.

---

I have two problems with this statement. First, Harbaugh was only head coach of Stanford for 4 years.  Second, he inherited a totally broken program and had to rebuild it from the bottom up.  It is therefore ridiculous to compare Harbaugh's accomplishments at Stanford with those of Shaw, who inherited a top ten program and has had 11 seasons at the helm.  Shaw was masterful in taking over Harbaugh's program and producing some marvelous results in the years immediately following.  That is wholly to his credit.  But he also wholly owns the current decline, which is the result of his leadership, his coaches and his players.  

Also, it makes no sense to compare Harbaugh's current track record at Michigan to anything Shaw has done at Stanford.  Michigan plays in a different conference, has a different schedule and a different history.  No comparison.  I wonder how many times Stanford would have beaten Ohio State in the last 7 years.  Once maybe, in 2015.  

And for what it's worth, I would prefer to be 7-1 after a hard-fought disappointing loss to another top ten program than 3-5 after a miserable and disappointing game vs. another Pac-12 bottom-feeder.  Yes, the natives in Ann Arbor may be calling for Harbaugh's head, but there are worse places to be than 7-1.  Cardinal fans know that.

It's not just the record.  The Michigan-MSU game was an incredibly compelling game . . . one of the best college football games I've seen in a long time.  Tight game; great plays made on both sides; great atmosphere, etc.  Those were 2 teams making plays against pretty good (understatement) defenses.  Stanford was at that level not that long ago.

And now where are things?  (And this coming Friday will quite possibly be worse).

[Phogge]

Not much wrong except no depth and lack of talent, stale coaching, read and react defense that can’t tackle, injuries to most of the few good players, choking punter who gives opposition short field..........


Why all the injuries in the last few years? Surely at a school with a great medical facility and boodles of cash why can’t Stanford find a strength coach worth his calories. And why can’t the recruiting department find big mean guys like Mauro, DeCastro and Murphy?

And why are you paying a coach nine million to supervise a disaster?

[Phogge]

Not much wrong except no depth and lack of talent, stale coaching, read and react defense that can’t tackle, injuries to most of the few good players, choking punter who gives opposition short field..........


Why all the injuries in the last few years? Surely at a school with a great medical facility and boodles of cash why can’t Stanford find a strength coach worth his calories. And why can’t the recruiting department find big mean guys like Mauro, DeCastro and Murphy?

And why are you paying a coach nine million to supervise a disaster?

[82lsju]

Feel for the kids on the team who appear from watching on TV are playing hard.  I just hope that the root of the problem is not institutional/administrative where the people at the top of the university have no interest in having competitive sports programs.

I think MTL and Drell are indifferent to sports success, if it happened they would be fine with it just like they are fine if it is not successful.  Of course their either going along with or initiating the cut of the 11 sports indicates to me a bias against, not just a lack of interest....

[82lsju]

Feel for the kids on the team who appear from watching on TV are playing hard.  I just hope that the root of the problem is not institutional/administrative where the people at the top of the university have no interest in having competitive sports programs.

I think MTL and Drell are indifferent to sports success, if it happened they would be fine with it just like they are fine if it is not successful.  Of course their either going along with or initiating the cut of the 11 sports indicates to me a bias against, not just a lack of interest....

[Austroturf]

HARBAUGH built the program. Shaw rode his coattails.

Harbaugh went to 1 BCS/NY6 Bowl (and it wasn't a Rose Bowl and he never won the conference). Shaw has been to 4.

---

I have two problems with this statement. First, Harbaugh was only head coach of Stanford for 4 years.  Second, he inherited a totally broken program and had to rebuild it from the bottom up.  It is therefore ridiculous to compare Harbaugh's accomplishments at Stanford with those of Shaw, who inherited a top ten program and has had 11 seasons at the helm.  Shaw was masterful in taking over Harbaugh's program and producing some marvelous results in the years immediately following.  That is wholly to his credit.  But he also wholly owns the current decline, which is the result of his leadership, his coaches and his players.  

Also, it makes no sense to compare Harbaugh's current track record at Michigan to anything Shaw has done at Stanford.  Michigan plays in a different conference, has a different schedule and a different history.  No comparison.  I wonder how many times Stanford would have beaten Ohio State in the last 7 years.  Once maybe, in 2015.  

And for what it's worth, I would prefer to be 7-1 after a hard-fought disappointing loss to another top ten program than 3-5 after a miserable and disappointing game vs. another Pac-12 bottom-feeder.  Yes, the natives in Ann Arbor may be calling for Harbaugh's head, but there are worse places to be than 7-1.  Cardinal fans know that.

It's not just the record.  The Michigan-MSU game was an incredibly compelling game . . . one of the best college football games I've seen in a long time.  Tight game; great plays made on both sides; great atmosphere, etc.  Those were 2 teams making plays against pretty good (understatement) defenses.  Stanford was at that level not that long ago.

And now where are things?  (And this coming Friday will quite possibly be worse).

Agree on the UM-MSU game: excellent contest with a compelling ebb and flow.  Unfortunately for Harbs, his players made the mistakes late, and he contributed a few himself.  When the score was 30-14 in the mid 3rd quarter, the game looked more out of reach for MSU than it really was.  Michigan fans are bemoaning the "choke job" of giving up such a dominant lead.  Well, as Sparty showed, it was merely a two-possession lead.  They scored and went for two, closing to within 8 points, then did it again to tie the game in the early 4th quarter.  Down the stretch, the Wolverines got a FG, the Spartans got a TD.  And that was ultimately the difference.  One of the best games of the current season, though Michigan fans are obviously seething right now.  MSU has won 10 out of 14 contests dating from 2008.  Harbaugh is 3-4 against his instate rivals.

And, yes, not that long ago, we could play at that level -- under the current head coach. Somehow the wheels came off the juggernaut.

[Austroturf]

HARBAUGH built the program. Shaw rode his coattails.

Harbaugh went to 1 BCS/NY6 Bowl (and it wasn't a Rose Bowl and he never won the conference). Shaw has been to 4.

---

I have two problems with this statement. First, Harbaugh was only head coach of Stanford for 4 years.  Second, he inherited a totally broken program and had to rebuild it from the bottom up.  It is therefore ridiculous to compare Harbaugh's accomplishments at Stanford with those of Shaw, who inherited a top ten program and has had 11 seasons at the helm.  Shaw was masterful in taking over Harbaugh's program and producing some marvelous results in the years immediately following.  That is wholly to his credit.  But he also wholly owns the current decline, which is the result of his leadership, his coaches and his players.  

Also, it makes no sense to compare Harbaugh's current track record at Michigan to anything Shaw has done at Stanford.  Michigan plays in a different conference, has a different schedule and a different history.  No comparison.  I wonder how many times Stanford would have beaten Ohio State in the last 7 years.  Once maybe, in 2015.  

And for what it's worth, I would prefer to be 7-1 after a hard-fought disappointing loss to another top ten program than 3-5 after a miserable and disappointing game vs. another Pac-12 bottom-feeder.  Yes, the natives in Ann Arbor may be calling for Harbaugh's head, but there are worse places to be than 7-1.  Cardinal fans know that.

It's not just the record.  The Michigan-MSU game was an incredibly compelling game . . . one of the best college football games I've seen in a long time.  Tight game; great plays made on both sides; great atmosphere, etc.  Those were 2 teams making plays against pretty good (understatement) defenses.  Stanford was at that level not that long ago.

And now where are things?  (And this coming Friday will quite possibly be worse).

Agree on the UM-MSU game: excellent contest with a compelling ebb and flow.  Unfortunately for Harbs, his players made the mistakes late, and he contributed a few himself.  When the score was 30-14 in the mid 3rd quarter, the game looked more out of reach for MSU than it really was.  Michigan fans are bemoaning the "choke job" of giving up such a dominant lead.  Well, as Sparty showed, it was merely a two-possession lead.  They scored and went for two, closing to within 8 points, then did it again to tie the game in the early 4th quarter.  Down the stretch, the Wolverines got a FG, the Spartans got a TD.  And that was ultimately the difference.  One of the best games of the current season, though Michigan fans are obviously seething right now.  MSU has won 10 out of 14 contests dating from 2008.  Harbaugh is 3-4 against his instate rivals.

And, yes, not that long ago, we could play at that level -- under the current head coach. Somehow the wheels came off the juggernaut.

[lex24]

Feel for the kids on the team who appear from watching on TV are playing hard.  I just hope that the root of the problem is not institutional/administrative where the people at the top of the university have no interest in having competitive sports programs.

I doubt they have no interest in having a competing sports program. They love those Sears Cups ( or whatever they call it today). But I do wonder if they would be happy to see football fall by the wayside.

---

HARBAUGH built the program. Shaw rode his coattails.

Harbaugh went to 1 BCS/NY6 Bowl (and it wasn't a Rose Bowl and he never won the conference). Shaw has been to 4.

---

I have two problems with this statement. First, Harbaugh was only head coach of Stanford for 4 years.  Second, he inherited a totally broken program and had to rebuild it from the bottom up.  It is therefore ridiculous to compare Harbaugh's accomplishments at Stanford with those of Shaw, who inherited a top ten program and has had 11 seasons at the helm.  Shaw was masterful in taking over Harbaugh's program and producing some marvelous results in the years immediately following.  That is wholly to his credit.  But he also wholly owns the current decline, which is the result of his leadership, his coaches and his players.  

Also, it makes no sense to compare Harbaugh's current track record at Michigan to anything Shaw has done at Stanford.  Michigan plays in a different conference, has a different schedule and a different history.  No comparison.  I wonder how many times Stanford would have beaten Ohio State in the last 7 years.  Once maybe, in 2015.  

And for what it's worth, I would prefer to be 7-1 after a hard-fought disappointing loss to another top ten program than 3-5 after a miserable and disappointing game vs. another Pac-12 bottom-feeder.  Yes, the natives in Ann Arbor may be calling for Harbaugh's head, but there are worse places to be than 7-1.  Cardinal fans know that.

It's not just the record.  The Michigan-MSU game was an incredibly compelling game . . . one of the best college football games I've seen in a long time.  Tight game; great plays made on both sides; great atmosphere, etc.  Those were 2 teams making plays against pretty good (understatement) defenses.  Stanford was at that level not that long ago.

And now where are things?  (And this coming Friday will quite possibly be worse).

Agree on the UM-MSU game: excellent contest with a compelling ebb and flow.  Unfortunately for Harbs, his players made the mistakes late, and he contributed a few himself.  When the score was 30-14 in the mid 3rd quarter, the game looked more out of reach for MSU than it really was.  Michigan fans are bemoaning the "choke job" of giving up such a dominant lead.  Well, as Sparty showed, it was merely a two-possession lead.  They scored and went for two, closing to within 8 points, then did it again to tie the game in the early 4th quarter.  Down the stretch, the Wolverines got a FG, the Spartans got a TD.  And that was ultimately the difference.  One of the best games of the current season, though Michigan fans are obviously seething right now.  MSU has won 10 out of 14 contests dating from 2008.  Harbaugh is 3-4 against his instate rivals.

And, yes, not that long ago, we could play at that level -- under the current head coach. Somehow the wheels came off the juggernaut.

If Stanford had blown a 16 point lead and then lost late after the second string QB was for some reason brought in and fumbled, in a big game, this board would be going bonkers. Damn, I wish that were the case.  Much better than what we have to talk about.  Which was a game so stunningly boring that I went to bed with 12 minutes left.

[lex24]

Feel for the kids on the team who appear from watching on TV are playing hard.  I just hope that the root of the problem is not institutional/administrative where the people at the top of the university have no interest in having competitive sports programs.

I doubt they have no interest in having a competing sports program. They love those Sears Cups ( or whatever they call it today). But I do wonder if they would be happy to see football fall by the wayside.

---

HARBAUGH built the program. Shaw rode his coattails.

Harbaugh went to 1 BCS/NY6 Bowl (and it wasn't a Rose Bowl and he never won the conference). Shaw has been to 4.

---

I have two problems with this statement. First, Harbaugh was only head coach of Stanford for 4 years.  Second, he inherited a totally broken program and had to rebuild it from the bottom up.  It is therefore ridiculous to compare Harbaugh's accomplishments at Stanford with those of Shaw, who inherited a top ten program and has had 11 seasons at the helm.  Shaw was masterful in taking over Harbaugh's program and producing some marvelous results in the years immediately following.  That is wholly to his credit.  But he also wholly owns the current decline, which is the result of his leadership, his coaches and his players.  

Also, it makes no sense to compare Harbaugh's current track record at Michigan to anything Shaw has done at Stanford.  Michigan plays in a different conference, has a different schedule and a different history.  No comparison.  I wonder how many times Stanford would have beaten Ohio State in the last 7 years.  Once maybe, in 2015.  

And for what it's worth, I would prefer to be 7-1 after a hard-fought disappointing loss to another top ten program than 3-5 after a miserable and disappointing game vs. another Pac-12 bottom-feeder.  Yes, the natives in Ann Arbor may be calling for Harbaugh's head, but there are worse places to be than 7-1.  Cardinal fans know that.

It's not just the record.  The Michigan-MSU game was an incredibly compelling game . . . one of the best college football games I've seen in a long time.  Tight game; great plays made on both sides; great atmosphere, etc.  Those were 2 teams making plays against pretty good (understatement) defenses.  Stanford was at that level not that long ago.

And now where are things?  (And this coming Friday will quite possibly be worse).

Agree on the UM-MSU game: excellent contest with a compelling ebb and flow.  Unfortunately for Harbs, his players made the mistakes late, and he contributed a few himself.  When the score was 30-14 in the mid 3rd quarter, the game looked more out of reach for MSU than it really was.  Michigan fans are bemoaning the "choke job" of giving up such a dominant lead.  Well, as Sparty showed, it was merely a two-possession lead.  They scored and went for two, closing to within 8 points, then did it again to tie the game in the early 4th quarter.  Down the stretch, the Wolverines got a FG, the Spartans got a TD.  And that was ultimately the difference.  One of the best games of the current season, though Michigan fans are obviously seething right now.  MSU has won 10 out of 14 contests dating from 2008.  Harbaugh is 3-4 against his instate rivals.

And, yes, not that long ago, we could play at that level -- under the current head coach. Somehow the wheels came off the juggernaut.

If Stanford had blown a 16 point lead and then lost late after the second string QB was for some reason brought in and fumbled, in a big game, this board would be going bonkers. Damn, I wish that were the case.  Much better than what we have to talk about.  Which was a game so stunningly boring that I went to bed with 12 minutes left.

[Austroturf]

---

Harbaugh went to 1 BCS/NY6 Bowl (and it wasn't a Rose Bowl and he never won the conference). Shaw has been to 4.

---

I have two problems with this statement. First, Harbaugh was only head coach of Stanford for 4 years.  Second, he inherited a totally broken program and had to rebuild it from the bottom up.  It is therefore ridiculous to compare Harbaugh's accomplishments at Stanford with those of Shaw, who inherited a top ten program and has had 11 seasons at the helm.  Shaw was masterful in taking over Harbaugh's program and producing some marvelous results in the years immediately following.  That is wholly to his credit.  But he also wholly owns the current decline, which is the result of his leadership, his coaches and his players.  

Also, it makes no sense to compare Harbaugh's current track record at Michigan to anything Shaw has done at Stanford.  Michigan plays in a different conference, has a different schedule and a different history.  No comparison.  I wonder how many times Stanford would have beaten Ohio State in the last 7 years.  Once maybe, in 2015.  

And for what it's worth, I would prefer to be 7-1 after a hard-fought disappointing loss to another top ten program than 3-5 after a miserable and disappointing game vs. another Pac-12 bottom-feeder.  Yes, the natives in Ann Arbor may be calling for Harbaugh's head, but there are worse places to be than 7-1.  Cardinal fans know that.

It's not just the record.  The Michigan-MSU game was an incredibly compelling game . . . one of the best college football games I've seen in a long time.  Tight game; great plays made on both sides; great atmosphere, etc.  Those were 2 teams making plays against pretty good (understatement) defenses.  Stanford was at that level not that long ago.

And now where are things?  (And this coming Friday will quite possibly be worse).

Agree on the UM-MSU game: excellent contest with a compelling ebb and flow.  Unfortunately for Harbs, his players made the mistakes late, and he contributed a few himself.  When the score was 30-14 in the mid 3rd quarter, the game looked more out of reach for MSU than it really was.  Michigan fans are bemoaning the "choke job" of giving up such a dominant lead.  Well, as Sparty showed, it was merely a two-possession lead.  They scored and went for two, closing to within 8 points, then did it again to tie the game in the early 4th quarter.  Down the stretch, the Wolverines got a FG, the Spartans got a TD.  And that was ultimately the difference.  One of the best games of the current season, though Michigan fans are obviously seething right now.  MSU has won 10 out of 14 contests dating from 2008.  Harbaugh is 3-4 against his instate rivals.

And, yes, not that long ago, we could play at that level -- under the current head coach. Somehow the wheels came off the juggernaut.

If Stanford had blown a 16 point lead and then lost late after the second string QB was for some reason brought in and fumbled, in a big game, this board would be going bonkers. Damn, I wish that were the case.  Much better than what we have to talk about.  Which was a game so stunningly boring that I went to bed with 12 minutes left.

Fully agree with this assessment.  However, if you look at the total flow of the game, that 16 point lead was more ephemeral than it appeared.  UM had a 23-14 halftime lead.  After trading scoreless possessions with MSU, UM got the ball and scored to go up 30-14.  MSU answered on the very next possession to shave the lead to 30-22.  The Spartan defense held on UM's next possession, and MSU drove for another TD and 2 pt. conversion.  Tie game.  

The big mistake, as you correctly point out, was putting the true freshman QB (McCarthy) into the game: he had already nearly turned the ball over once in the 2nd half, and this time he succeeded in gifting the ball to the Spartans at the Michigan 41.  Yes, we would be going bonkers about that decision if Shaw had made it.  Bad call by Harbaugh and his OC.  Ultimately, it cost them the game.

[Austroturf]

---

Harbaugh went to 1 BCS/NY6 Bowl (and it wasn't a Rose Bowl and he never won the conference). Shaw has been to 4.

---

I have two problems with this statement. First, Harbaugh was only head coach of Stanford for 4 years.  Second, he inherited a totally broken program and had to rebuild it from the bottom up.  It is therefore ridiculous to compare Harbaugh's accomplishments at Stanford with those of Shaw, who inherited a top ten program and has had 11 seasons at the helm.  Shaw was masterful in taking over Harbaugh's program and producing some marvelous results in the years immediately following.  That is wholly to his credit.  But he also wholly owns the current decline, which is the result of his leadership, his coaches and his players.  

Also, it makes no sense to compare Harbaugh's current track record at Michigan to anything Shaw has done at Stanford.  Michigan plays in a different conference, has a different schedule and a different history.  No comparison.  I wonder how many times Stanford would have beaten Ohio State in the last 7 years.  Once maybe, in 2015.  

And for what it's worth, I would prefer to be 7-1 after a hard-fought disappointing loss to another top ten program than 3-5 after a miserable and disappointing game vs. another Pac-12 bottom-feeder.  Yes, the natives in Ann Arbor may be calling for Harbaugh's head, but there are worse places to be than 7-1.  Cardinal fans know that.

It's not just the record.  The Michigan-MSU game was an incredibly compelling game . . . one of the best college football games I've seen in a long time.  Tight game; great plays made on both sides; great atmosphere, etc.  Those were 2 teams making plays against pretty good (understatement) defenses.  Stanford was at that level not that long ago.

And now where are things?  (And this coming Friday will quite possibly be worse).

Agree on the UM-MSU game: excellent contest with a compelling ebb and flow.  Unfortunately for Harbs, his players made the mistakes late, and he contributed a few himself.  When the score was 30-14 in the mid 3rd quarter, the game looked more out of reach for MSU than it really was.  Michigan fans are bemoaning the "choke job" of giving up such a dominant lead.  Well, as Sparty showed, it was merely a two-possession lead.  They scored and went for two, closing to within 8 points, then did it again to tie the game in the early 4th quarter.  Down the stretch, the Wolverines got a FG, the Spartans got a TD.  And that was ultimately the difference.  One of the best games of the current season, though Michigan fans are obviously seething right now.  MSU has won 10 out of 14 contests dating from 2008.  Harbaugh is 3-4 against his instate rivals.

And, yes, not that long ago, we could play at that level -- under the current head coach. Somehow the wheels came off the juggernaut.

If Stanford had blown a 16 point lead and then lost late after the second string QB was for some reason brought in and fumbled, in a big game, this board would be going bonkers. Damn, I wish that were the case.  Much better than what we have to talk about.  Which was a game so stunningly boring that I went to bed with 12 minutes left.

Fully agree with this assessment.  However, if you look at the total flow of the game, that 16 point lead was more ephemeral than it appeared.  UM had a 23-14 halftime lead.  After trading scoreless possessions with MSU, UM got the ball and scored to go up 30-14.  MSU answered on the very next possession to shave the lead to 30-22.  The Spartan defense held on UM's next possession, and MSU drove for another TD and 2 pt. conversion.  Tie game.  

The big mistake, as you correctly point out, was putting the true freshman QB (McCarthy) into the game: he had already nearly turned the ball over once in the 2nd half, and this time he succeeded in gifting the ball to the Spartans at the Michigan 41.  Yes, we would be going bonkers about that decision if Shaw had made it.  Bad call by Harbaugh and his OC.  Ultimately, it cost them the game.