[PAsportsfan]

We'll see how Michigan fans feel if Harbaugh leaves and they return to mediocrity.

Are the headaches and the burned bridges really so grave that teams prefer to be rid of Harbaugh? I'm surprised that many Stanford, 49ers or Michigan feel that way.

---

I think most of us had come to realize he was going to leave sooner rather than later, and we skipped past the angst to resignation.

No doubt, but I sensed at the time that it wasn't just resignation but a fair amount of "good riddance" based on his abrasive nature, without full recognition of how extraordinary his impact was.

It’s kind of irrelevant how fans “feel”.  They are not the ones dealing with JH on a day to day basis.  The guy can coach, no question.  But the issue always has seemed to be that “he does not play well with others.”  That appeared to be the case in SF.  It didn’t help that York appeared to back Ballke.  

At Stanford there was, as I understand it, a slew of players that couldn’t stand him. Sherman and Baldwin were vocal about it.  But they were far from alone. 

In the end, the question for those making the decisions are is he worth the trouble.  He is far from the only good coach out there.  And if you can bring one in that is a good coach without the baggage, maybe you decide to make a move.  
Of course, you can’t then hire Jim Tomsula….

---

I was a Bob Cousy fan.  Still am with 50s highlights
Where did Chamberlain score his 100?
Yes 28 of 32 was maybe still a record for most FTs made

Hershey, Penn.

I agree with you Lex.

Can someone explain to me why being a fan of the 49ers I should care how much pain Harball caused to York, Ballky or anyone else? Same with any other team he coached, SD, Stanford, M.

When I think of Sherman and Baldwin success, they should owe Harball for the extra motivation to succeed. They both had NFL careers that know one at Stanford saw coming.

Any struggling team would be a fool not to hire him. You know his track record. When he leaves, hire someone who can improve on his success, not someone who squanders everything he built.

[PAsportsfan]

We'll see how Michigan fans feel if Harbaugh leaves and they return to mediocrity.

Are the headaches and the burned bridges really so grave that teams prefer to be rid of Harbaugh? I'm surprised that many Stanford, 49ers or Michigan feel that way.

---

I think most of us had come to realize he was going to leave sooner rather than later, and we skipped past the angst to resignation.

No doubt, but I sensed at the time that it wasn't just resignation but a fair amount of "good riddance" based on his abrasive nature, without full recognition of how extraordinary his impact was.

It’s kind of irrelevant how fans “feel”.  They are not the ones dealing with JH on a day to day basis.  The guy can coach, no question.  But the issue always has seemed to be that “he does not play well with others.”  That appeared to be the case in SF.  It didn’t help that York appeared to back Ballke.  

At Stanford there was, as I understand it, a slew of players that couldn’t stand him. Sherman and Baldwin were vocal about it.  But they were far from alone. 

In the end, the question for those making the decisions are is he worth the trouble.  He is far from the only good coach out there.  And if you can bring one in that is a good coach without the baggage, maybe you decide to make a move.  
Of course, you can’t then hire Jim Tomsula….

---

I was a Bob Cousy fan.  Still am with 50s highlights
Where did Chamberlain score his 100?
Yes 28 of 32 was maybe still a record for most FTs made

Hershey, Penn.

I agree with you Lex.

Can someone explain to me why being a fan of the 49ers I should care how much pain Harball caused to York, Ballky or anyone else? Same with any other team he coached, SD, Stanford, M.

When I think of Sherman and Baldwin success, they should owe Harball for the extra motivation to succeed. They both had NFL careers that know one at Stanford saw coming.

Any struggling team would be a fool not to hire him. You know his track record. When he leaves, hire someone who can improve on his success, not someone who squanders everything he built.

[DC 86]

I agree with you Lex.

Can someone explain to me why being a fan of the 49ers I should care how much pain Harball caused to York, Ballky or anyone else? Same with any other team he coached, SD, Stanford, M.

When I think of Sherman and Baldwin success, they should owe Harball for the extra motivation to succeed. They both had NFL careers that know one at Stanford saw coming.

Any struggling team would be a fool not to hire him. You know his track record. When he leaves, hire someone who can improve on his success, not someone who squanders everything he build.

That's actually what I've been arguing. It sounded like everyone else was arguing the opposite (that he's not worth the trouble), perhaps I misunderstood.

[DC 86]

I agree with you Lex.

Can someone explain to me why being a fan of the 49ers I should care how much pain Harball caused to York, Ballky or anyone else? Same with any other team he coached, SD, Stanford, M.

When I think of Sherman and Baldwin success, they should owe Harball for the extra motivation to succeed. They both had NFL careers that know one at Stanford saw coming.

Any struggling team would be a fool not to hire him. You know his track record. When he leaves, hire someone who can improve on his success, not someone who squanders everything he build.

That's actually what I've been arguing. It sounded like everyone else was arguing the opposite (that he's not worth the trouble), perhaps I misunderstood.

[gailtate]

We'll see how Michigan fans feel if Harbaugh leaves and they return to mediocrity.

Are the headaches and the burned bridges really so grave that teams prefer to be rid of Harbaugh? I'm surprised that many Stanford, 49ers or Michigan feel that way.

---

I think most of us had come to realize he was going to leave sooner rather than later, and we skipped past the angst to resignation.

No doubt, but I sensed at the time that it wasn't just resignation but a fair amount of "good riddance" based on his abrasive nature, without full recognition of how extraordinary his impact was.

It’s kind of irrelevant how fans “feel”.  They are not the ones dealing with JH on a day to day basis.  The guy can coach, no question.  But the issue always has seemed to be that “he does not play well with others.”  That appeared to be the case in SF.  It didn’t help that York appeared to back Ballke.  

At Stanford there was, as I understand it, a slew of players that couldn’t stand him. Sherman and Baldwin were vocal about it.  But they were far from alone. 

In the end, the question for those making the decisions are is he worth the trouble.  He is far from the only good coach out there.  And if you can bring one in that is a good coach without the baggage, maybe you decide to make a move.  
Of course, you can’t then hire Jim Tomsula….

---

I was a Bob Cousy fan.  Still am with 50s highlights
Where did Chamberlain score his 100?
Yes 28 of 32 was maybe still a record for most FTs made

Hershey, Penn.

Players seem to truly love Shaw today. So much for that metric.

[gailtate]

We'll see how Michigan fans feel if Harbaugh leaves and they return to mediocrity.

Are the headaches and the burned bridges really so grave that teams prefer to be rid of Harbaugh? I'm surprised that many Stanford, 49ers or Michigan feel that way.

---

I think most of us had come to realize he was going to leave sooner rather than later, and we skipped past the angst to resignation.

No doubt, but I sensed at the time that it wasn't just resignation but a fair amount of "good riddance" based on his abrasive nature, without full recognition of how extraordinary his impact was.

It’s kind of irrelevant how fans “feel”.  They are not the ones dealing with JH on a day to day basis.  The guy can coach, no question.  But the issue always has seemed to be that “he does not play well with others.”  That appeared to be the case in SF.  It didn’t help that York appeared to back Ballke.  

At Stanford there was, as I understand it, a slew of players that couldn’t stand him. Sherman and Baldwin were vocal about it.  But they were far from alone. 

In the end, the question for those making the decisions are is he worth the trouble.  He is far from the only good coach out there.  And if you can bring one in that is a good coach without the baggage, maybe you decide to make a move.  
Of course, you can’t then hire Jim Tomsula….

---

I was a Bob Cousy fan.  Still am with 50s highlights
Where did Chamberlain score his 100?
Yes 28 of 32 was maybe still a record for most FTs made

Hershey, Penn.

Players seem to truly love Shaw today. So much for that metric.

[lex24]

We'll see how Michigan fans feel if Harbaugh leaves and they return to mediocrity.

Are the headaches and the burned bridges really so grave that teams prefer to be rid of Harbaugh? I'm surprised that many Stanford, 49ers or Michigan feel that way.

---

I think most of us had come to realize he was going to leave sooner rather than later, and we skipped past the angst to resignation.

No doubt, but I sensed at the time that it wasn't just resignation but a fair amount of "good riddance" based on his abrasive nature, without full recognition of how extraordinary his impact was.

It’s kind of irrelevant how fans “feel”.  They are not the ones dealing with JH on a day to day basis.  The guy can coach, no question.  But the issue always has seemed to be that “he does not play well with others.”  That appeared to be the case in SF.  It didn’t help that York appeared to back Ballke.  

At Stanford there was, as I understand it, a slew of players that couldn’t stand him. Sherman and Baldwin were vocal about it.  But they were far from alone. 

In the end, the question for those making the decisions are is he worth the trouble.  He is far from the only good coach out there.  And if you can bring one in that is a good coach without the baggage, maybe you decide to make a move.  
Of course, you can’t then hire Jim Tomsula….

---

I was a Bob Cousy fan.  Still am with 50s highlights
Where did Chamberlain score his 100?
Yes 28 of 32 was maybe still a record for most FTs made

Hershey, Penn.

Players seem to truly love Shaw today. So much for that metric.

Not the point. It’s not necessary to like the HC.  But if a major percentage loathes the HC and the Admin has difficulty dealing with him, that’s an issue.  I don’t know, btw, if that is the case at Mich. I do believe (admittedly, not certain)  that it was the case at both Stanford and SF.

[lex24]

We'll see how Michigan fans feel if Harbaugh leaves and they return to mediocrity.

Are the headaches and the burned bridges really so grave that teams prefer to be rid of Harbaugh? I'm surprised that many Stanford, 49ers or Michigan feel that way.

---

I think most of us had come to realize he was going to leave sooner rather than later, and we skipped past the angst to resignation.

No doubt, but I sensed at the time that it wasn't just resignation but a fair amount of "good riddance" based on his abrasive nature, without full recognition of how extraordinary his impact was.

It’s kind of irrelevant how fans “feel”.  They are not the ones dealing with JH on a day to day basis.  The guy can coach, no question.  But the issue always has seemed to be that “he does not play well with others.”  That appeared to be the case in SF.  It didn’t help that York appeared to back Ballke.  

At Stanford there was, as I understand it, a slew of players that couldn’t stand him. Sherman and Baldwin were vocal about it.  But they were far from alone. 

In the end, the question for those making the decisions are is he worth the trouble.  He is far from the only good coach out there.  And if you can bring one in that is a good coach without the baggage, maybe you decide to make a move.  
Of course, you can’t then hire Jim Tomsula….

---

I was a Bob Cousy fan.  Still am with 50s highlights
Where did Chamberlain score his 100?
Yes 28 of 32 was maybe still a record for most FTs made

Hershey, Penn.

Players seem to truly love Shaw today. So much for that metric.

Not the point. It’s not necessary to like the HC.  But if a major percentage loathes the HC and the Admin has difficulty dealing with him, that’s an issue.  I don’t know, btw, if that is the case at Mich. I do believe (admittedly, not certain)  that it was the case at both Stanford and SF.

[DC 86]

Players seem to truly love Shaw today.

Not sure about that, which is normal.

In my years of fandom my impression is that the Stanford football head coach who has come closest to being universally loved by his players (as a person) was Paul Wiggin.

[DC 86]

Players seem to truly love Shaw today.

Not sure about that, which is normal.

In my years of fandom my impression is that the Stanford football head coach who has come closest to being universally loved by his players (as a person) was Paul Wiggin.

[Goose]

It’s kind of irrelevant how fans “feel”.  They are not the ones dealing with JH on a day to day basis.  The guy can coach, no question.  But the issue always has seemed to be that “he does not play well with others.” 
<snip>

In the end, the question for those making the decisions are is he worth the trouble.

The answer to this question is greatly affected by how the fans "feel". If JH loses the "mandate of heaven" it will be hard to justify keeping him. The big donors will just say no. It is pretty clear that if it weren't for the fact 2020 was a COVID year, he would have been let go at that point. I think it is clear that JH can get results under the right circumstances. I am less convinced he is a "good coach". He has EUTM and he will sort through assistant coaches until he finds a set that delivers wins. It is less clear to me he knows how to organize this process, but he will keep at it relentlessly. As long as he has "buy in" by most of the people involved, he will eventually have success. However, he isn't a universally successful motivator and he also goes through recruits at an alarming rate. It almost took him too long to make it work at Michigan, and as usual good fortune accompanied success. Whether that good fortune was required for that success is arguable. Whether that success will ever include the CFP champianship/a super bowl win is TBD.  Whether that success is sustainable is also TBD.

He is far from the only good coach out there.  And if you can bring one in that is a good coach without the baggage, maybe you decide to make a move.  

Of course, you can’t then hire Jim Tomsula….

That's the problem, but JH may have solved it for them. He was saved at least partially because he was an alum, a "Michigan Man". It seemed a bit petty to fire/not renew such a guy who had actually a pretty good record and who was striving to deliver a B1G championship, although he had repeatedly fallen short. It now seems clear that JH is entertaining proposals to leave. It is also possible that he is nonplussed by how he was treated in 2020, although that is a bit of reading tea leaves. It is no longer about loyalty and honor, if it ever was. If JH doesn't take an NFL job this year, he better hope he has a great year in 2022, because I think patience will be in short supply if he does not.

[Goose]

It’s kind of irrelevant how fans “feel”.  They are not the ones dealing with JH on a day to day basis.  The guy can coach, no question.  But the issue always has seemed to be that “he does not play well with others.” 
<snip>

In the end, the question for those making the decisions are is he worth the trouble.

The answer to this question is greatly affected by how the fans "feel". If JH loses the "mandate of heaven" it will be hard to justify keeping him. The big donors will just say no. It is pretty clear that if it weren't for the fact 2020 was a COVID year, he would have been let go at that point. I think it is clear that JH can get results under the right circumstances. I am less convinced he is a "good coach". He has EUTM and he will sort through assistant coaches until he finds a set that delivers wins. It is less clear to me he knows how to organize this process, but he will keep at it relentlessly. As long as he has "buy in" by most of the people involved, he will eventually have success. However, he isn't a universally successful motivator and he also goes through recruits at an alarming rate. It almost took him too long to make it work at Michigan, and as usual good fortune accompanied success. Whether that good fortune was required for that success is arguable. Whether that success will ever include the CFP champianship/a super bowl win is TBD.  Whether that success is sustainable is also TBD.

He is far from the only good coach out there.  And if you can bring one in that is a good coach without the baggage, maybe you decide to make a move.  

Of course, you can’t then hire Jim Tomsula….

That's the problem, but JH may have solved it for them. He was saved at least partially because he was an alum, a "Michigan Man". It seemed a bit petty to fire/not renew such a guy who had actually a pretty good record and who was striving to deliver a B1G championship, although he had repeatedly fallen short. It now seems clear that JH is entertaining proposals to leave. It is also possible that he is nonplussed by how he was treated in 2020, although that is a bit of reading tea leaves. It is no longer about loyalty and honor, if it ever was. If JH doesn't take an NFL job this year, he better hope he has a great year in 2022, because I think patience will be in short supply if he does not.

[needle]

There is no college FB coach that is universally loved by players.

Just don't be Todd Graham in the era of no-wait transfers.

 Several former and current players testified against Hawaii coach Todd Graham during a Hawaii Senate meeting on Friday, accusing him not only of verbally abusing players but also of destroying the program's culture.re.

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/ncaa-foo...4jzgs5waxy

[needle]

There is no college FB coach that is universally loved by players.

Just don't be Todd Graham in the era of no-wait transfers.

 Several former and current players testified against Hawaii coach Todd Graham during a Hawaii Senate meeting on Friday, accusing him not only of verbally abusing players but also of destroying the program's culture.re.

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/ncaa-foo...4jzgs5waxy

[DC 86]

I think it is clear that JH can get results under the right circumstances. I am less convinced he is a "good coach".

At USD his record was 29-6.

His tenure at Stanford you are familiar with, I assume.

He took over a 49er team that had gone 46-82 under its previous four coaches and went 44-19.

He took over a Michigan team that under his two immediate predecessors had gone 46-42 (24-32 in conference) and has gone 61-24 (42-17 in conference).

In all four jobs he created "the right circumstances", they weren't "the right circumstances" before him and in several cases after him either.

Perhaps you meant "good coach" in some other sense? in terms of results he is a fantastic coach.

I don't think it's clear at all that he would have been fired in 2020 absent Covid, but if he had been it would have demonstrated terrible shortsightedness on the part of Warde Manuel if his goal was for the program to rank in the upper echelon of college football.

[DC 86]

I think it is clear that JH can get results under the right circumstances. I am less convinced he is a "good coach".

At USD his record was 29-6.

His tenure at Stanford you are familiar with, I assume.

He took over a 49er team that had gone 46-82 under its previous four coaches and went 44-19.

He took over a Michigan team that under his two immediate predecessors had gone 46-42 (24-32 in conference) and has gone 61-24 (42-17 in conference).

In all four jobs he created "the right circumstances", they weren't "the right circumstances" before him and in several cases after him either.

Perhaps you meant "good coach" in some other sense? in terms of results he is a fantastic coach.

I don't think it's clear at all that he would have been fired in 2020 absent Covid, but if he had been it would have demonstrated terrible shortsightedness on the part of Warde Manuel if his goal was for the program to rank in the upper echelon of college football.

[PAsportsfan]

I think it is clear that JH can get results under the right circumstances. I am less convinced he is a "good coach".

At USD his record was 29-6.

His tenure at Stanford you are familiar with, I assume.

He took over a 49er team that had gone 46-82 under its previous four coaches and went 44-19.

He took over a Michigan team that under his two immediate predecessors had gone 46-42 (24-32 in conference) and has gone 61-24 (42-17 in conference).

In all four jobs he created "the right circumstances", they weren't "the right circumstances" before him and in several cases after him either.

Perhaps you meant "good coach" in some other sense? in terms of results he is a fantastic coach.

I don't think it's clear at all that he would have been fired in 2020 absent Covid, but if he had been it would have demonstrated terrible shortsightedness on the part of Warde Manuel if his goal was for the program to rank in the upper echelon of college football.

Two thumbs up DC

[PAsportsfan]

I think it is clear that JH can get results under the right circumstances. I am less convinced he is a "good coach".

At USD his record was 29-6.

His tenure at Stanford you are familiar with, I assume.

He took over a 49er team that had gone 46-82 under its previous four coaches and went 44-19.

He took over a Michigan team that under his two immediate predecessors had gone 46-42 (24-32 in conference) and has gone 61-24 (42-17 in conference).

In all four jobs he created "the right circumstances", they weren't "the right circumstances" before him and in several cases after him either.

Perhaps you meant "good coach" in some other sense? in terms of results he is a fantastic coach.

I don't think it's clear at all that he would have been fired in 2020 absent Covid, but if he had been it would have demonstrated terrible shortsightedness on the part of Warde Manuel if his goal was for the program to rank in the upper echelon of college football.

Two thumbs up DC

[lex24]

I think it is clear that JH can get results under the right circumstances. I am less convinced he is a "good coach".

At USD his record was 29-6.

His tenure at Stanford you are familiar with, I assume.

He took over a 49er team that had gone 46-82 under its previous four coaches and went 44-19.

He took over a Michigan team that under his two immediate predecessors had gone 46-42 (24-32 in conference) and has gone 61-24 (42-17 in conference).

In all four jobs he created "the right circumstances", they weren't "the right circumstances" before him and in several cases after him either.

Perhaps you meant "good coach" in some other sense? in terms of results he is a fantastic coach.

I don't think it's clear at all that he would have been fired in 2020 absent Covid, but if he had been it would have demonstrated terrible shortsightedness on the part of Warde Manuel if his goal was for the program to rank in the upper echelon of college football.

Basically agree.  Only issue is whether he wears out his welcome.  I suppose we shall see.  Plenty of NFL teams need new blood.  Heck, maybe he could turn Jacksonville around.  To me, turnarounds are his strength.

[lex24]

I think it is clear that JH can get results under the right circumstances. I am less convinced he is a "good coach".

At USD his record was 29-6.

His tenure at Stanford you are familiar with, I assume.

He took over a 49er team that had gone 46-82 under its previous four coaches and went 44-19.

He took over a Michigan team that under his two immediate predecessors had gone 46-42 (24-32 in conference) and has gone 61-24 (42-17 in conference).

In all four jobs he created "the right circumstances", they weren't "the right circumstances" before him and in several cases after him either.

Perhaps you meant "good coach" in some other sense? in terms of results he is a fantastic coach.

I don't think it's clear at all that he would have been fired in 2020 absent Covid, but if he had been it would have demonstrated terrible shortsightedness on the part of Warde Manuel if his goal was for the program to rank in the upper echelon of college football.

Basically agree.  Only issue is whether he wears out his welcome.  I suppose we shall see.  Plenty of NFL teams need new blood.  Heck, maybe he could turn Jacksonville around.  To me, turnarounds are his strength.

[Goose]

I think it is clear that JH can get results under the right circumstances. I am less convinced he is a "good coach".

At USD his record was 29-6.

His tenure at Stanford you are familiar with, I assume.

He took over a 49er team that had gone 46-82 under its previous four coaches and went 44-19.

He took over a Michigan team that under his two immediate predecessors had gone 46-42 (24-32 in conference) and has gone 61-24 (42-17 in conference).

In all four jobs he created "the right circumstances", they weren't "the right circumstances" before him and in several cases after him either.

Perhaps you meant "good coach" in some other sense? in terms of results he is a fantastic coach.

He created the "right circumstances" for which he should receive full credit. I think he has excelled in taking advantage of what was available when he got there and molding it into a program that has success. It is unclear that the model he creates is sustainable. He has not really been in a situation to demonstrate that as he has either moved on or was asked to move on. For a coach to be a "good coach" IMHO you have to demonstrate sustained success. Some coaches are known as "slash and burn" types that do well for a while but an accumulation of issues eventually takes them down. I think Michigan is a program that has many inherent strengths that JH has taken advantage of, but his trajectory was pretty flat/trending down. He felt that he needed to take the program to the next level to compete with tOSU. He wanted "speed in space", but he wasn't getting it. Many people at all levels of Michigan fandom had lost faith. IMHO EUTM works only as long as people trust you. After touting recruits as "the best ever" and then throwing them away a few times, that trust is strained. A 2-4 season doesn't bode well for the future. More strained trust.

I don't think it's clear at all that he would have been fired in 2020 absent Covid, but if he had been it would have demonstrated terrible shortsightedness on the part of Warde Manuel if his goal was for the program to rank in the upper echelon of college football.

Well, if they were 4-8 in a full "normal" year history at Michigan says it would be pretty probable, especially for a coach whose contract was expiring anyway. I think for JH the problem is that Warde Manual's goal isn't ranking in the "upper echelon" of college football. It is winning the B1G and the CFP championship with some regularity. That is just plain hard to do even once and even more difficult to do year after year. Michigan has an unfortunate history of being good but not good enough, even going back to the days of Bo. Unreasonable expectations on the part of the fans don't help. I think JH is fully aware of this situation. It will be interesting to see it play out.

[Goose]

I think it is clear that JH can get results under the right circumstances. I am less convinced he is a "good coach".

At USD his record was 29-6.

His tenure at Stanford you are familiar with, I assume.

He took over a 49er team that had gone 46-82 under its previous four coaches and went 44-19.

He took over a Michigan team that under his two immediate predecessors had gone 46-42 (24-32 in conference) and has gone 61-24 (42-17 in conference).

In all four jobs he created "the right circumstances", they weren't "the right circumstances" before him and in several cases after him either.

Perhaps you meant "good coach" in some other sense? in terms of results he is a fantastic coach.

He created the "right circumstances" for which he should receive full credit. I think he has excelled in taking advantage of what was available when he got there and molding it into a program that has success. It is unclear that the model he creates is sustainable. He has not really been in a situation to demonstrate that as he has either moved on or was asked to move on. For a coach to be a "good coach" IMHO you have to demonstrate sustained success. Some coaches are known as "slash and burn" types that do well for a while but an accumulation of issues eventually takes them down. I think Michigan is a program that has many inherent strengths that JH has taken advantage of, but his trajectory was pretty flat/trending down. He felt that he needed to take the program to the next level to compete with tOSU. He wanted "speed in space", but he wasn't getting it. Many people at all levels of Michigan fandom had lost faith. IMHO EUTM works only as long as people trust you. After touting recruits as "the best ever" and then throwing them away a few times, that trust is strained. A 2-4 season doesn't bode well for the future. More strained trust.

I don't think it's clear at all that he would have been fired in 2020 absent Covid, but if he had been it would have demonstrated terrible shortsightedness on the part of Warde Manuel if his goal was for the program to rank in the upper echelon of college football.

Well, if they were 4-8 in a full "normal" year history at Michigan says it would be pretty probable, especially for a coach whose contract was expiring anyway. I think for JH the problem is that Warde Manual's goal isn't ranking in the "upper echelon" of college football. It is winning the B1G and the CFP championship with some regularity. That is just plain hard to do even once and even more difficult to do year after year. Michigan has an unfortunate history of being good but not good enough, even going back to the days of Bo. Unreasonable expectations on the part of the fans don't help. I think JH is fully aware of this situation. It will be interesting to see it play out.

[gailtate]

Players seem to truly love Shaw today.

Not sure about that, which is normal.

In my years of fandom my impression is that the Stanford football head coach who has come closest to being universally loved by his players (as a person) was Paul Wiggin.

You neutered my meaning by omitting the second sentence. My point was comparing the apparent "players'-coach" bonhomie that Shaw seems to have created no longer delivers the sterling the results he once enjoyed. Your reference to Wiggin is more to my point: His lovable-guy persona did not make for a memorable career at his alma mater, nor with the Chiefs in the NFL. Players need a demanding coach, not a favorite uncle or another dad.

[gailtate]

Players seem to truly love Shaw today.

Not sure about that, which is normal.

In my years of fandom my impression is that the Stanford football head coach who has come closest to being universally loved by his players (as a person) was Paul Wiggin.

You neutered my meaning by omitting the second sentence. My point was comparing the apparent "players'-coach" bonhomie that Shaw seems to have created no longer delivers the sterling the results he once enjoyed. Your reference to Wiggin is more to my point: His lovable-guy persona did not make for a memorable career at his alma mater, nor with the Chiefs in the NFL. Players need a demanding coach, not a favorite uncle or another dad.

[DC 86]

Players seem to truly love Shaw today.

Not sure about that, which is normal.

In my years of fandom my impression is that the Stanford football head coach who has come closest to being universally loved by his players (as a person) was Paul Wiggin.

You neutered my meaning by omitting the second sentence. My point was comparing the apparent "players'-coach" bonhomie that Shaw seems to have created no longer delivers the sterling the results he once enjoyed. Your reference to Wiggin is more to my point: His lovable-guy persona did not make for a memorable career at his alma mater, nor with the Chiefs in the NFL. Players need a demanding coach, not a favorite uncle or another dad.

I was actually agreeing with your premise about a head coach being loved not necessarily being desirable and offering Wiggin as an example, but disagreeing about the extent to which Shaw is loved by his players. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough.

---

I think it is clear that JH can get results under the right circumstances. I am less convinced he is a "good coach".

At USD his record was 29-6.

His tenure at Stanford you are familiar with, I assume.

He took over a 49er team that had gone 46-82 under its previous four coaches and went 44-19.

He took over a Michigan team that under his two immediate predecessors had gone 46-42 (24-32 in conference) and has gone 61-24 (42-17 in conference).

In all four jobs he created "the right circumstances", they weren't "the right circumstances" before him and in several cases after him either.

Perhaps you meant "good coach" in some other sense? in terms of results he is a fantastic coach.

He created the "right circumstances" for which he should receive full credit. I think he has excelled in taking advantage of what was available when he got there and molding it into a program that has success. It is unclear that the model he creates is sustainable. He has not really been in a situation to demonstrate that as he has either moved on or was asked to move on. For a coach to be a "good coach" IMHO you have to demonstrate sustained success. Some coaches are known as "slash and burn" types that do well for a while but an accumulation of issues eventually takes them down. I think Michigan is a program that has many inherent strengths that JH has taken advantage of, but his trajectory was pretty flat/trending down. He felt that he needed to take the program to the next level to compete with tOSU. He wanted "speed in space", but he wasn't getting it. Many people at all levels of Michigan fandom had lost faith. IMHO EUTM works only as long as people trust you. After touting recruits as "the best ever" and then throwing them away a few times, that trust is strained. A 2-4 season doesn't bode well for the future. More strained trust.

I don't think it's clear at all that he would have been fired in 2020 absent Covid, but if he had been it would have demonstrated terrible shortsightedness on the part of Warde Manuel if his goal was for the program to rank in the upper echelon of college football.

Well, if they were 4-8 in a full "normal" year history at Michigan says it would be pretty probable, especially for a coach whose contract was expiring anyway. I think for JH the problem is that Warde Manual's goal isn't ranking in the "upper echelon" of college football. It is winning the B1G and the CFP championship with some regularity. That is just plain hard to do even once and even more difficult to do year after year. Michigan has an unfortunate history of being good but not good enough, even going back to the days of Bo. Unreasonable expectations on the part of the fans don't help. I think JH is fully aware of this situation. It will be interesting to see it play out.

His trajectory at Michigan was indeed fairly flat, but at a level that was far better than Michigan had been at prior to his arrival.

If Manuel (and Michigan fans/boosters) consider winning the B1G championship and the CFP "with some regularity" to be the expectation then they are fools. In the last 73 seasons Michigan has won one national championship (split with Nebraska). The last time Michigan won the B1G prior to this year was 2004. As you alluded to, perhaps its just a case of unreasonable expectations, but that doesn't change the fact that Harbaugh's performance there has been very good in the context of recent history.

---

Only issue is whether he wears out his welcome.  I suppose we shall see.  Plenty of NFL teams need new blood.  Heck, maybe he could turn Jacksonville around.  To me, turnarounds are his strength.

I'm sure he has worn out his welcome with a lot of people just based on his personality, it's just a matter of whether the results are worth the aggravations.

Harbaugh coaching the Raiders just makes way too much sense to me. Connection to the Davis family and experience coaching in the organization, star power (important in Las Vegas), reasonably talented roster. And of course he played for the Bears, they have a talented young QB and a decent roster, another interesting possibility.

[DC 86]

Players seem to truly love Shaw today.

Not sure about that, which is normal.

In my years of fandom my impression is that the Stanford football head coach who has come closest to being universally loved by his players (as a person) was Paul Wiggin.

You neutered my meaning by omitting the second sentence. My point was comparing the apparent "players'-coach" bonhomie that Shaw seems to have created no longer delivers the sterling the results he once enjoyed. Your reference to Wiggin is more to my point: His lovable-guy persona did not make for a memorable career at his alma mater, nor with the Chiefs in the NFL. Players need a demanding coach, not a favorite uncle or another dad.

I was actually agreeing with your premise about a head coach being loved not necessarily being desirable and offering Wiggin as an example, but disagreeing about the extent to which Shaw is loved by his players. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough.

---

I think it is clear that JH can get results under the right circumstances. I am less convinced he is a "good coach".

At USD his record was 29-6.

His tenure at Stanford you are familiar with, I assume.

He took over a 49er team that had gone 46-82 under its previous four coaches and went 44-19.

He took over a Michigan team that under his two immediate predecessors had gone 46-42 (24-32 in conference) and has gone 61-24 (42-17 in conference).

In all four jobs he created "the right circumstances", they weren't "the right circumstances" before him and in several cases after him either.

Perhaps you meant "good coach" in some other sense? in terms of results he is a fantastic coach.

He created the "right circumstances" for which he should receive full credit. I think he has excelled in taking advantage of what was available when he got there and molding it into a program that has success. It is unclear that the model he creates is sustainable. He has not really been in a situation to demonstrate that as he has either moved on or was asked to move on. For a coach to be a "good coach" IMHO you have to demonstrate sustained success. Some coaches are known as "slash and burn" types that do well for a while but an accumulation of issues eventually takes them down. I think Michigan is a program that has many inherent strengths that JH has taken advantage of, but his trajectory was pretty flat/trending down. He felt that he needed to take the program to the next level to compete with tOSU. He wanted "speed in space", but he wasn't getting it. Many people at all levels of Michigan fandom had lost faith. IMHO EUTM works only as long as people trust you. After touting recruits as "the best ever" and then throwing them away a few times, that trust is strained. A 2-4 season doesn't bode well for the future. More strained trust.

I don't think it's clear at all that he would have been fired in 2020 absent Covid, but if he had been it would have demonstrated terrible shortsightedness on the part of Warde Manuel if his goal was for the program to rank in the upper echelon of college football.

Well, if they were 4-8 in a full "normal" year history at Michigan says it would be pretty probable, especially for a coach whose contract was expiring anyway. I think for JH the problem is that Warde Manual's goal isn't ranking in the "upper echelon" of college football. It is winning the B1G and the CFP championship with some regularity. That is just plain hard to do even once and even more difficult to do year after year. Michigan has an unfortunate history of being good but not good enough, even going back to the days of Bo. Unreasonable expectations on the part of the fans don't help. I think JH is fully aware of this situation. It will be interesting to see it play out.

His trajectory at Michigan was indeed fairly flat, but at a level that was far better than Michigan had been at prior to his arrival.

If Manuel (and Michigan fans/boosters) consider winning the B1G championship and the CFP "with some regularity" to be the expectation then they are fools. In the last 73 seasons Michigan has won one national championship (split with Nebraska). The last time Michigan won the B1G prior to this year was 2004. As you alluded to, perhaps its just a case of unreasonable expectations, but that doesn't change the fact that Harbaugh's performance there has been very good in the context of recent history.

---

Only issue is whether he wears out his welcome.  I suppose we shall see.  Plenty of NFL teams need new blood.  Heck, maybe he could turn Jacksonville around.  To me, turnarounds are his strength.

I'm sure he has worn out his welcome with a lot of people just based on his personality, it's just a matter of whether the results are worth the aggravations.

Harbaugh coaching the Raiders just makes way too much sense to me. Connection to the Davis family and experience coaching in the organization, star power (important in Las Vegas), reasonably talented roster. And of course he played for the Bears, they have a talented young QB and a decent roster, another interesting possibility.

[teejers1]

I think it is clear that JH can get results under the right circumstances. I am less convinced he is a "good coach".

At USD his record was 29-6.

His tenure at Stanford you are familiar with, I assume.

He took over a 49er team that had gone 46-82 under its previous four coaches and went 44-19.

He took over a Michigan team that under his two immediate predecessors had gone 46-42 (24-32 in conference) and has gone 61-24 (42-17 in conference).

In all four jobs he created "the right circumstances", they weren't "the right circumstances" before him and in several cases after him either.

Perhaps you meant "good coach" in some other sense? in terms of results he is a fantastic coach.

I don't think it's clear at all that he would have been fired in 2020 absent Covid, but if he had been it would have demonstrated terrible shortsightedness on the part of Warde Manuel if his goal was for the program to rank in the upper echelon of college football.

Two thumbs up DC

Yep.  Do not understand the bee in Goose's bonnet downplaying Harbaugh's remarkable success as a football coach.
I don't like the guy, but gotta give him his propers as a coach.  He has been great.  Everywhere.

[teejers1]

I think it is clear that JH can get results under the right circumstances. I am less convinced he is a "good coach".

At USD his record was 29-6.

His tenure at Stanford you are familiar with, I assume.

He took over a 49er team that had gone 46-82 under its previous four coaches and went 44-19.

He took over a Michigan team that under his two immediate predecessors had gone 46-42 (24-32 in conference) and has gone 61-24 (42-17 in conference).

In all four jobs he created "the right circumstances", they weren't "the right circumstances" before him and in several cases after him either.

Perhaps you meant "good coach" in some other sense? in terms of results he is a fantastic coach.

I don't think it's clear at all that he would have been fired in 2020 absent Covid, but if he had been it would have demonstrated terrible shortsightedness on the part of Warde Manuel if his goal was for the program to rank in the upper echelon of college football.

Two thumbs up DC

Yep.  Do not understand the bee in Goose's bonnet downplaying Harbaugh's remarkable success as a football coach.
I don't like the guy, but gotta give him his propers as a coach.  He has been great.  Everywhere.

[Goose]

I think it is clear that JH can get results under the right circumstances. I am less convinced he is a "good coach".

At USD his record was 29-6.

His tenure at Stanford you are familiar with, I assume.

He took over a 49er team that had gone 46-82 under its previous four coaches and went 44-19.

He took over a Michigan team that under his two immediate predecessors had gone 46-42 (24-32 in conference) and has gone 61-24 (42-17 in conference).

In all four jobs he created "the right circumstances", they weren't "the right circumstances" before him and in several cases after him either.

Perhaps you meant "good coach" in some other sense? in terms of results he is a fantastic coach.

I don't think it's clear at all that he would have been fired in 2020 absent Covid, but if he had been it would have demonstrated terrible shortsightedness on the part of Warde Manuel if his goal was for the program to rank in the upper echelon of college football.

Two thumbs up DC

Yep.  Do not understand the bee in Goose's bonnet downplaying Harbaugh's remarkable success as a football coach.
I don't like the guy, but gotta give him his propers as a coach.  He has been great.  Everywhere.

I just don't think he has been "great". He certainly has accomplished a lot, but to be a great coach in my book you have to sustain success. As it happens, JH left San Diego, Stanford, and the 49ers after he had turned the programs around but before he was able to reach the summit and stay there. That isn't a knock on him. He left the first two for greener pastures and the last one involuntarily. So that leaves it TBD IMHO. At Michigan he has shown basic competence up until this year. As others have pointed out on this site, the "floor" at Michigan for a generic competent coach is 6-6. The "average" season should be 9 wins. While I myself don't quite buy that analysis (It is more complex than that), it says JH is good but not great. Good enough to be near the top of the B1G but not good enough to win it. JH had kind of plateaued.
Until this year. This year could change a lot. We will see what happens going forward. Will JH stay or go to the NFL? Will he re-negotiate his contract? What will happen next year?
JH has a model that involves EUTM and a reality distortion field. His coaching is also very personal. It is about him. He has excelled at turning programs around. This year at Michigan was a "turn around" from 2020. JH himself discussed how they basically reset their program and started over, trying to maximize what they had rather than going ahead with their attempts to improve team speed and playing a more wide open game. This model also involves JH relying on assistant coaches to do a lot of the heavy lifting, which is great when he has the "right" people. At Michigan it has also involved JH replacing his assistants frequently for no obvious reason because things weren't working to his satisfaction. When JH came to Stanford and the 49ers he benefited from the fact the teams were actually better than their records. The previous coaching staffs were disasters. Stanford was a perfect place for EUTM to take root and create the tunnel workers union. Toby was already there. JH and his very good staff took advantage of it. Indeed, that is good coaching. However, coaching football is a tough business and people get recruited over. They also sometimes disagree with the coach. JH simply doesn't allow that and it is personal. You can also become an unperson when he doesn't need you anymore (or thinks he doesn't). What goes around comes around. When JH is on the way up, it doesn't matter. People keep their mouth shut and the Emperor is fully clothed. When things go flat, like they did at Michigan, not so much. Your pay gets cut and you may get fired. I don't think that happens to "great" coaches very often, but expectations at Michigan are IMHO unrealistic.
I think we have all seen examples of leaders in both politics and business that create a "cult of personality" and are quite successful for a period of time. Sustaining that success is frequently impossible because it is built more on perception than an underlying reality. You can get a team of people to do amazing things that way, but it doesn't work forever. I will agree JH is "great" when I see him raising Michigan to the point he is 0.500 with tOSU. Until then, I will say he is "very good". Yes, it is a high bar. Most coaches can't even come close, but that is good vs. great in my book.

[Goose]

I think it is clear that JH can get results under the right circumstances. I am less convinced he is a "good coach".

At USD his record was 29-6.

His tenure at Stanford you are familiar with, I assume.

He took over a 49er team that had gone 46-82 under its previous four coaches and went 44-19.

He took over a Michigan team that under his two immediate predecessors had gone 46-42 (24-32 in conference) and has gone 61-24 (42-17 in conference).

In all four jobs he created "the right circumstances", they weren't "the right circumstances" before him and in several cases after him either.

Perhaps you meant "good coach" in some other sense? in terms of results he is a fantastic coach.

I don't think it's clear at all that he would have been fired in 2020 absent Covid, but if he had been it would have demonstrated terrible shortsightedness on the part of Warde Manuel if his goal was for the program to rank in the upper echelon of college football.

Two thumbs up DC

Yep.  Do not understand the bee in Goose's bonnet downplaying Harbaugh's remarkable success as a football coach.
I don't like the guy, but gotta give him his propers as a coach.  He has been great.  Everywhere.

I just don't think he has been "great". He certainly has accomplished a lot, but to be a great coach in my book you have to sustain success. As it happens, JH left San Diego, Stanford, and the 49ers after he had turned the programs around but before he was able to reach the summit and stay there. That isn't a knock on him. He left the first two for greener pastures and the last one involuntarily. So that leaves it TBD IMHO. At Michigan he has shown basic competence up until this year. As others have pointed out on this site, the "floor" at Michigan for a generic competent coach is 6-6. The "average" season should be 9 wins. While I myself don't quite buy that analysis (It is more complex than that), it says JH is good but not great. Good enough to be near the top of the B1G but not good enough to win it. JH had kind of plateaued.
Until this year. This year could change a lot. We will see what happens going forward. Will JH stay or go to the NFL? Will he re-negotiate his contract? What will happen next year?
JH has a model that involves EUTM and a reality distortion field. His coaching is also very personal. It is about him. He has excelled at turning programs around. This year at Michigan was a "turn around" from 2020. JH himself discussed how they basically reset their program and started over, trying to maximize what they had rather than going ahead with their attempts to improve team speed and playing a more wide open game. This model also involves JH relying on assistant coaches to do a lot of the heavy lifting, which is great when he has the "right" people. At Michigan it has also involved JH replacing his assistants frequently for no obvious reason because things weren't working to his satisfaction. When JH came to Stanford and the 49ers he benefited from the fact the teams were actually better than their records. The previous coaching staffs were disasters. Stanford was a perfect place for EUTM to take root and create the tunnel workers union. Toby was already there. JH and his very good staff took advantage of it. Indeed, that is good coaching. However, coaching football is a tough business and people get recruited over. They also sometimes disagree with the coach. JH simply doesn't allow that and it is personal. You can also become an unperson when he doesn't need you anymore (or thinks he doesn't). What goes around comes around. When JH is on the way up, it doesn't matter. People keep their mouth shut and the Emperor is fully clothed. When things go flat, like they did at Michigan, not so much. Your pay gets cut and you may get fired. I don't think that happens to "great" coaches very often, but expectations at Michigan are IMHO unrealistic.
I think we have all seen examples of leaders in both politics and business that create a "cult of personality" and are quite successful for a period of time. Sustaining that success is frequently impossible because it is built more on perception than an underlying reality. You can get a team of people to do amazing things that way, but it doesn't work forever. I will agree JH is "great" when I see him raising Michigan to the point he is 0.500 with tOSU. Until then, I will say he is "very good". Yes, it is a high bar. Most coaches can't even come close, but that is good vs. great in my book.

[BostonCard]

I think it is clear that JH can get results under the right circumstances. I am less convinced he is a "good coach".

At USD his record was 29-6.

His tenure at Stanford you are familiar with, I assume.

He took over a 49er team that had gone 46-82 under its previous four coaches and went 44-19.

He took over a Michigan team that under his two immediate predecessors had gone 46-42 (24-32 in conference) and has gone 61-24 (42-17 in conference).

In all four jobs he created "the right circumstances", they weren't "the right circumstances" before him and in several cases after him either.

Perhaps you meant "good coach" in some other sense? in terms of results he is a fantastic coach.

I don't think it's clear at all that he would have been fired in 2020 absent Covid, but if he had been it would have demonstrated terrible shortsightedness on the part of Warde Manuel if his goal was for the program to rank in the upper echelon of college football.

Two thumbs up DC

Yep.  Do not understand the bee in Goose's bonnet downplaying Harbaugh's remarkable success as a football coach.
I don't like the guy, but gotta give him his propers as a coach.  He has been great.  Everywhere.

I don’t either.  He’s won in the lower divisions.  He’s one at a P5 school with academic limitations, turning around a program that had been coming off of five consecutive losing seasons.  He’s taken a big name P5 program from mediocrity to the CFP playoffs.  He’s won in the NFL.  There are only a handful of coaches who have taken their teams to the CFP playoffs, and only a handful of NFL coaches who have taken their teams to the Super Bowl; Harbaugh has done both.  The only thing left for him to accomplish is to win a title or Super Bowl, and I for one, would not bet against him.  I would struggle to name 10 coaches better than Harbaugh in college or the pros.

BC

[BostonCard]

I think it is clear that JH can get results under the right circumstances. I am less convinced he is a "good coach".

At USD his record was 29-6.

His tenure at Stanford you are familiar with, I assume.

He took over a 49er team that had gone 46-82 under its previous four coaches and went 44-19.

He took over a Michigan team that under his two immediate predecessors had gone 46-42 (24-32 in conference) and has gone 61-24 (42-17 in conference).

In all four jobs he created "the right circumstances", they weren't "the right circumstances" before him and in several cases after him either.

Perhaps you meant "good coach" in some other sense? in terms of results he is a fantastic coach.

I don't think it's clear at all that he would have been fired in 2020 absent Covid, but if he had been it would have demonstrated terrible shortsightedness on the part of Warde Manuel if his goal was for the program to rank in the upper echelon of college football.

Two thumbs up DC

Yep.  Do not understand the bee in Goose's bonnet downplaying Harbaugh's remarkable success as a football coach.
I don't like the guy, but gotta give him his propers as a coach.  He has been great.  Everywhere.

I don’t either.  He’s won in the lower divisions.  He’s one at a P5 school with academic limitations, turning around a program that had been coming off of five consecutive losing seasons.  He’s taken a big name P5 program from mediocrity to the CFP playoffs.  He’s won in the NFL.  There are only a handful of coaches who have taken their teams to the CFP playoffs, and only a handful of NFL coaches who have taken their teams to the Super Bowl; Harbaugh has done both.  The only thing left for him to accomplish is to win a title or Super Bowl, and I for one, would not bet against him.  I would struggle to name 10 coaches better than Harbaugh in college or the pros.

BC

[gailtate]

I think it is clear that JH can get results under the right circumstances. I am less convinced he is a "good coach".

At USD his record was 29-6.

His tenure at Stanford you are familiar with, I assume.

He took over a 49er team that had gone 46-82 under its previous four coaches and went 44-19.

He took over a Michigan team that under his two immediate predecessors had gone 46-42 (24-32 in conference) and has gone 61-24 (42-17 in conference).

In all four jobs he created "the right circumstances", they weren't "the right circumstances" before him and in several cases after him either.

Perhaps you meant "good coach" in some other sense? in terms of results he is a fantastic coach.

I don't think it's clear at all that he would have been fired in 2020 absent Covid, but if he had been it would have demonstrated terrible shortsightedness on the part of Warde Manuel if his goal was for the program to rank in the upper echelon of college football.

Two thumbs up DC

Yep.  Do not understand the bee in Goose's bonnet downplaying Harbaugh's remarkable success as a football coach.
I don't like the guy, but gotta give him his propers as a coach.  He has been great.  Everywhere.

I don’t either.  He’s won in the lower divisions.  He’s one at a P5 school with academic limitations, turning around a program that had been coming off of five consecutive losing seasons.  He’s taken a big name P5 program from mediocrity to the CFP playoffs.  He’s won in the NFL.  There are only a handful of coaches who have taken their teams to the CFP playoffs, and only a handful of NFL coaches who have taken their teams to the Super Bowl; Harbaugh has done both.  The only thing left for him to accomplish is to win a title or Super Bowl, and I for one, would not bet against him.  I would struggle to name 10 coaches better than Harbaugh in college or the pros.

BC

I am less convinced that Shaw is a good coach.
#MuirAndShawMustGo

[gailtate]

I think it is clear that JH can get results under the right circumstances. I am less convinced he is a "good coach".

At USD his record was 29-6.

His tenure at Stanford you are familiar with, I assume.

He took over a 49er team that had gone 46-82 under its previous four coaches and went 44-19.

He took over a Michigan team that under his two immediate predecessors had gone 46-42 (24-32 in conference) and has gone 61-24 (42-17 in conference).

In all four jobs he created "the right circumstances", they weren't "the right circumstances" before him and in several cases after him either.

Perhaps you meant "good coach" in some other sense? in terms of results he is a fantastic coach.

I don't think it's clear at all that he would have been fired in 2020 absent Covid, but if he had been it would have demonstrated terrible shortsightedness on the part of Warde Manuel if his goal was for the program to rank in the upper echelon of college football.

Two thumbs up DC

Yep.  Do not understand the bee in Goose's bonnet downplaying Harbaugh's remarkable success as a football coach.
I don't like the guy, but gotta give him his propers as a coach.  He has been great.  Everywhere.

I don’t either.  He’s won in the lower divisions.  He’s one at a P5 school with academic limitations, turning around a program that had been coming off of five consecutive losing seasons.  He’s taken a big name P5 program from mediocrity to the CFP playoffs.  He’s won in the NFL.  There are only a handful of coaches who have taken their teams to the CFP playoffs, and only a handful of NFL coaches who have taken their teams to the Super Bowl; Harbaugh has done both.  The only thing left for him to accomplish is to win a title or Super Bowl, and I for one, would not bet against him.  I would struggle to name 10 coaches better than Harbaugh in college or the pros.

BC

I am less convinced that Shaw is a good coach.
#MuirAndShawMustGo

[BostonCard]

I am less convinced that Shaw is a good coach.
#MuirAndShawMustGo

LOL.  Surely you are capable of being more than a one-trick pony.

BC

[BostonCard]

I am less convinced that Shaw is a good coach.
#MuirAndShawMustGo

LOL.  Surely you are capable of being more than a one-trick pony.

BC

[BigJohn043]

[/quote]

I don’t either.  He’s won in the lower divisions.  He’s one at a P5 school with academic limitations, turning around a program that had been coming off of five consecutive losing seasons.  He’s taken a big name P5 program from mediocrity to the CFP playoffs.  He’s won in the NFL.  There are only a handful of coaches who have taken their teams to the CFP playoffs, and only a handful of NFL coaches who have taken their teams to the Super Bowl; Harbaugh has done both.  The only thing left for him to accomplish is to win a title or Super Bowl, and I for one, would not bet against him.  I would struggle to name 10 coaches better than Harbaugh in college or the pros.

BC
[/quote]

OK:

Saban
Belichick
Sweeney
Carrol
Smart
Kelly
Meyer
Harbaugh - his brother
Reid
Fisher

Might add Payton and Tomlin.....

[BigJohn043]

[/quote]

I don’t either.  He’s won in the lower divisions.  He’s one at a P5 school with academic limitations, turning around a program that had been coming off of five consecutive losing seasons.  He’s taken a big name P5 program from mediocrity to the CFP playoffs.  He’s won in the NFL.  There are only a handful of coaches who have taken their teams to the CFP playoffs, and only a handful of NFL coaches who have taken their teams to the Super Bowl; Harbaugh has done both.  The only thing left for him to accomplish is to win a title or Super Bowl, and I for one, would not bet against him.  I would struggle to name 10 coaches better than Harbaugh in college or the pros.

BC
[/quote]

OK:

Saban
Belichick
Sweeney
Carrol
Smart
Kelly
Meyer
Harbaugh - his brother
Reid
Fisher

Might add Payton and Tomlin.....

[PAsportsfan]

I don’t either.  He’s won in the lower divisions.  He’s one at a P5 school with academic limitations, turning around a program that had been coming off of five consecutive losing seasons.  He’s taken a big name P5 program from mediocrity to the CFP playoffs.  He’s won in the NFL.  There are only a handful of coaches who have taken their teams to the CFP playoffs, and only a handful of NFL coaches who have taken their teams to the Super Bowl; Harbaugh has done both.  The only thing left for him to accomplish is to win a title or Super Bowl, and I for one, would not bet against him.  I would struggle to name 10 coaches better than Harbaugh in college or the pros.

BC
[/quote]

OK:

Saban
Belichick
Sweeney
Carrol
Smart
Kelly
Meyer
Harbaugh - his brother
Reid
Fisher

Might add Payton and Tomlin.....
[/quote]

Saban
Belichick-spy gate
Sweeney
Carrol-dirty
Smart---fired
Kelly---dirty
Meyer-----scum
Harbaugh - his brother
Reid
Fisher

[PAsportsfan]

I don’t either.  He’s won in the lower divisions.  He’s one at a P5 school with academic limitations, turning around a program that had been coming off of five consecutive losing seasons.  He’s taken a big name P5 program from mediocrity to the CFP playoffs.  He’s won in the NFL.  There are only a handful of coaches who have taken their teams to the CFP playoffs, and only a handful of NFL coaches who have taken their teams to the Super Bowl; Harbaugh has done both.  The only thing left for him to accomplish is to win a title or Super Bowl, and I for one, would not bet against him.  I would struggle to name 10 coaches better than Harbaugh in college or the pros.

BC
[/quote]

OK:

Saban
Belichick
Sweeney
Carrol
Smart
Kelly
Meyer
Harbaugh - his brother
Reid
Fisher

Might add Payton and Tomlin.....
[/quote]

Saban
Belichick-spy gate
Sweeney
Carrol-dirty
Smart---fired
Kelly---dirty
Meyer-----scum
Harbaugh - his brother
Reid
Fisher