[Mick]

With all due respect to the poster and to Mays ability but Babe Ruth was the greatest baseball player. I doubt Mays would have made the Hall as a pitcher which Ruth would have if he had stayed on the mound. AAMOF Ruth should have been the #1 on ESPN’s list with Thorpe #2.

+100   being able to pitch and hit at that level is amazing.  Ruth is#12 on the all time winningest percentage pitcher list.

Factor in night baseball, additional travel, the color barrier and an overall improvement in the quality of competition and I’ll still take Mays.  He was the benchmark by which all five tool players are measured.  Note: this takes nothing away from Ruth - he saved baseball following the Black Sox scandal but, IMO, he was not the greatest ball player of all time.

I'll see your night baseball/additional travel/color barrier/overall improvement in the quality of competition and raise you with the benefits Mays received from improved nutrition, improved conditioning, better travel and living conditions, better coaching, better managing, better training and better equipment at a minimum (wonder how many home runs Ruth would have hit without the dead ball and with Mays' 34 ounce bat instead of Ruth's 48 ounce bat).  Ruth had 226 fewer strikeouts than Mays, and 598 more walks.  Ruth faced legit spitballers his entire career.  He swung at balls that were brown from dirt and tobacco.  Ruth's OPS was 1.164, Mays' was .941.  As for speed, Mays had 140 triples, but Ruth had 136, in about 2,500 more at bats than Mays had.  Ruth had more runs scored and more RBIs than Mays, in those 2,500 fewer at bats.

And Ruth could pitch.  MAN how he could pitch.  Mays -- like most batters -- couldn't pitch a lick.  Ruth, by winning percentage, is the 12th most winning pitcher in history.  His career WHIP was 1.159.  Koufax's was 1.106.

Look, Mays is my favorite Giant, far and away.  But Babe Ruth was a physical freak.  There's no one who had a similar skill set, to pitch and hit at the very peak of the game.

Didn't pitchers frequently pitch both ends of a double header in Ruth's day?  Weren't relief pitchers in general in those days just dross?

Pitching both ends of a doubleheader in substance was a rare thing.  There have been plenty of pitchers who got knocked around in the first inning of the first game, then started the second.  There have been less than 100 doubleheaders in which the starter threw 15 innings plus.  Bobo Newsom did it four times, Joe McGinnity did it three times, Ruth never did it.  Technically Ruth started both ends, but only because he lasted just one batter in the first game.  The last one was in 1926 by a pitcher named Dutch Levsen, who won both ends.  Sports Illustrated wrote an article on it titled "Echoes of an Earlier Day."  Even by 1926 it was considered old.  Levsen was a rookie and would have arm trouble two years later.  The Golden Age of pitchers starting both games of a doubleheader was 1916-1918 with 25 such instances across those three years.  Oddly enough, Christy Mathewson never did it, but as a manager he had three separate starters do it in the same season.

I know the 1915 Red Sox carried 11 pitchers.  That was Babe's first full year.  the entire team hit 14 home runs, Babe hit 4 of them.  they threw 81 complete games in 154, but only two of the pitchers started more than 30 games.  They had nine separate pitchers start games.  Ruth was their #3 starter as a 20 year old, had 28 starts and 16 were complete games.  He batted .315 with a .952 OPS.  Next highest OPS on the club was .827 (Tris Speaker)

[Mick]

With all due respect to the poster and to Mays ability but Babe Ruth was the greatest baseball player. I doubt Mays would have made the Hall as a pitcher which Ruth would have if he had stayed on the mound. AAMOF Ruth should have been the #1 on ESPN’s list with Thorpe #2.

+100   being able to pitch and hit at that level is amazing.  Ruth is#12 on the all time winningest percentage pitcher list.

Factor in night baseball, additional travel, the color barrier and an overall improvement in the quality of competition and I’ll still take Mays.  He was the benchmark by which all five tool players are measured.  Note: this takes nothing away from Ruth - he saved baseball following the Black Sox scandal but, IMO, he was not the greatest ball player of all time.

I'll see your night baseball/additional travel/color barrier/overall improvement in the quality of competition and raise you with the benefits Mays received from improved nutrition, improved conditioning, better travel and living conditions, better coaching, better managing, better training and better equipment at a minimum (wonder how many home runs Ruth would have hit without the dead ball and with Mays' 34 ounce bat instead of Ruth's 48 ounce bat).  Ruth had 226 fewer strikeouts than Mays, and 598 more walks.  Ruth faced legit spitballers his entire career.  He swung at balls that were brown from dirt and tobacco.  Ruth's OPS was 1.164, Mays' was .941.  As for speed, Mays had 140 triples, but Ruth had 136, in about 2,500 more at bats than Mays had.  Ruth had more runs scored and more RBIs than Mays, in those 2,500 fewer at bats.

And Ruth could pitch.  MAN how he could pitch.  Mays -- like most batters -- couldn't pitch a lick.  Ruth, by winning percentage, is the 12th most winning pitcher in history.  His career WHIP was 1.159.  Koufax's was 1.106.

Look, Mays is my favorite Giant, far and away.  But Babe Ruth was a physical freak.  There's no one who had a similar skill set, to pitch and hit at the very peak of the game.

Didn't pitchers frequently pitch both ends of a double header in Ruth's day?  Weren't relief pitchers in general in those days just dross?

Pitching both ends of a doubleheader in substance was a rare thing.  There have been plenty of pitchers who got knocked around in the first inning of the first game, then started the second.  There have been less than 100 doubleheaders in which the starter threw 15 innings plus.  Bobo Newsom did it four times, Joe McGinnity did it three times, Ruth never did it.  Technically Ruth started both ends, but only because he lasted just one batter in the first game.  The last one was in 1926 by a pitcher named Dutch Levsen, who won both ends.  Sports Illustrated wrote an article on it titled "Echoes of an Earlier Day."  Even by 1926 it was considered old.  Levsen was a rookie and would have arm trouble two years later.  The Golden Age of pitchers starting both games of a doubleheader was 1916-1918 with 25 such instances across those three years.  Oddly enough, Christy Mathewson never did it, but as a manager he had three separate starters do it in the same season.

I know the 1915 Red Sox carried 11 pitchers.  That was Babe's first full year.  the entire team hit 14 home runs, Babe hit 4 of them.  they threw 81 complete games in 154, but only two of the pitchers started more than 30 games.  They had nine separate pitchers start games.  Ruth was their #3 starter as a 20 year old, had 28 starts and 16 were complete games.  He batted .315 with a .952 OPS.  Next highest OPS on the club was .827 (Tris Speaker)