[M T]

I suspect that WHO (and, for that matter, China) was inclined to believe the same was true of the 2019-ncov. 

I must not have been communicating properly, because the statement you have embolded is the narrative I have been pushing throughout this thread.

I guess the technical phrase is 'not zoonotic.' The difference in viewpoint is in your second phrase - 'inclined to believe'. I think China had good reason to believe the virus was extremely transmissable between human beings and, for reasons of its own, chose not to disclose it. I am thankful for the correction of the social chat to December 30. Will someone please provide an adequate rationalization for the decision of the CCP to sanction these doctors? For disclosing information the CCP did not want publicized?

The deception lured every health service in the Western world into a fatal overconfidence in the adequacy of its resources. See the other thread I started, 'Timelines'. The US in fact was neither better nor worse than the others.

Have you ever been made to apologize for publicly stating a falsehood?  Perhaps yelling "Fire" in a theater?  Or yelling "SARS" in China?
I already responded to you once about Dr. Li Wenliang.   An admonition and being required to sign an apology is not what I'd call a "sanction" as you put it.

You and I are on different planets. No, we are NOT saying the same thing. We may both think each of China and the WHO believed they had another zoonotic disease, but you seem to believe that China knew differently and were deceiving the WHO.

First off, you seem to believe that everything coming out of China is from the CCP, or at least, everything you want to believe is from them.  That seems to be just as true as saying everything out of the US is from the White House.  Yeah, there's stuff that is, and there's stuff that isn't.  Was the Santa Clara County's originally pronouncement of the first death in Santa Clara County on March 9 part of some sinister plot of the White House to hide the seriousness of the outbreak in the US?  It turns out that wasn't the first death, but that's what she believed at the time.   The deaths that SCC missed, were they part of that same plot?    When cases went untested early on because of the bad CDC test kits, was the US covering the disease up?   If the US tests miss some cases, is that part of an evil plot?  That seems to be what you believe about China.  

You've complained about China not doing things fast enough, but then it seems you have confusion over when things actually did happen.  For someone who created a thread "Timelines", maybe you should research this more.  The WHO-China Joint Mission Final Report has some of the info.  But, if you want to really dig into the original documents, go look at Google Translate of the Chinese language Wikipedia, starting here.

Why in the your world do you believe that the CCP is going to distort the information about an unknown disease that is killing their citizens?  They were facing an unknown threat.  Look at how much we don't know now and imagine the situation when it was just dawning on them that maybe they had another SARS or MERS.  A lot was happening fast, and I'm sure Monday Morning Epidemiologists can go back and find things they should have realized.   It's much more believable the local doctors (Wuhan Municipal Health Council) thought they had yet again a disease, like MERS, that was being spread mostly from animals.  Probably they should have known better.  You seem to see this as intentional deception by the CCP.   (The WMHC were the original organization to report that there was no obvious human-to-human spread.)

WHO has said that they had personnel on the scene in Wuhan from early January.  Do you believe evil China was hiding the patients and their info from them, just to preserve some grand deception plan?  Do you think the doctors from WHO would have not seen through it, if it is obvious to you?  

Yes, there was apparently something wrong with China's tests, produced within a day after the virus was sequenced.  That led to case counts that don't make sense.  But it was in the first 10 days after the sequencing!  Things don't always work the first time.  Ask the CDC.  (IMO, this apparent test failure, leading to the absence of new cases being confirmed shortly after the closing of the seafood market probably enhanced the belief that the new disease was mostly spread from animals.)

I know it won't convince you one iota, but in China's 2003 (ie, right after SARS) "Emergency Regulations for Public Health Emergencies" is
  "Article 21　No unit or individual shall conceal, postpone, or lie about emergencies or instruct others to conceal, postpone, or lie."


The China government is antithetical to what I believe a government should be.  But I think your conspiracy theory of deception is not justified.
Indeed, I would say that such an attitude may have been shared by those that didn't appreciate the gravity of what was being reported out of China.

[M T]

I suspect that WHO (and, for that matter, China) was inclined to believe the same was true of the 2019-ncov. 

I must not have been communicating properly, because the statement you have embolded is the narrative I have been pushing throughout this thread.

I guess the technical phrase is 'not zoonotic.' The difference in viewpoint is in your second phrase - 'inclined to believe'. I think China had good reason to believe the virus was extremely transmissable between human beings and, for reasons of its own, chose not to disclose it. I am thankful for the correction of the social chat to December 30. Will someone please provide an adequate rationalization for the decision of the CCP to sanction these doctors? For disclosing information the CCP did not want publicized?

The deception lured every health service in the Western world into a fatal overconfidence in the adequacy of its resources. See the other thread I started, 'Timelines'. The US in fact was neither better nor worse than the others.

Have you ever been made to apologize for publicly stating a falsehood?  Perhaps yelling "Fire" in a theater?  Or yelling "SARS" in China?
I already responded to you once about Dr. Li Wenliang.   An admonition and being required to sign an apology is not what I'd call a "sanction" as you put it.

You and I are on different planets. No, we are NOT saying the same thing. We may both think each of China and the WHO believed they had another zoonotic disease, but you seem to believe that China knew differently and were deceiving the WHO.

First off, you seem to believe that everything coming out of China is from the CCP, or at least, everything you want to believe is from them.  That seems to be just as true as saying everything out of the US is from the White House.  Yeah, there's stuff that is, and there's stuff that isn't.  Was the Santa Clara County's originally pronouncement of the first death in Santa Clara County on March 9 part of some sinister plot of the White House to hide the seriousness of the outbreak in the US?  It turns out that wasn't the first death, but that's what she believed at the time.   The deaths that SCC missed, were they part of that same plot?    When cases went untested early on because of the bad CDC test kits, was the US covering the disease up?   If the US tests miss some cases, is that part of an evil plot?  That seems to be what you believe about China.  

You've complained about China not doing things fast enough, but then it seems you have confusion over when things actually did happen.  For someone who created a thread "Timelines", maybe you should research this more.  The WHO-China Joint Mission Final Report has some of the info.  But, if you want to really dig into the original documents, go look at Google Translate of the Chinese language Wikipedia, starting here.

Why in the your world do you believe that the CCP is going to distort the information about an unknown disease that is killing their citizens?  They were facing an unknown threat.  Look at how much we don't know now and imagine the situation when it was just dawning on them that maybe they had another SARS or MERS.  A lot was happening fast, and I'm sure Monday Morning Epidemiologists can go back and find things they should have realized.   It's much more believable the local doctors (Wuhan Municipal Health Council) thought they had yet again a disease, like MERS, that was being spread mostly from animals.  Probably they should have known better.  You seem to see this as intentional deception by the CCP.   (The WMHC were the original organization to report that there was no obvious human-to-human spread.)

WHO has said that they had personnel on the scene in Wuhan from early January.  Do you believe evil China was hiding the patients and their info from them, just to preserve some grand deception plan?  Do you think the doctors from WHO would have not seen through it, if it is obvious to you?  

Yes, there was apparently something wrong with China's tests, produced within a day after the virus was sequenced.  That led to case counts that don't make sense.  But it was in the first 10 days after the sequencing!  Things don't always work the first time.  Ask the CDC.  (IMO, this apparent test failure, leading to the absence of new cases being confirmed shortly after the closing of the seafood market probably enhanced the belief that the new disease was mostly spread from animals.)

I know it won't convince you one iota, but in China's 2003 (ie, right after SARS) "Emergency Regulations for Public Health Emergencies" is
  "Article 21　No unit or individual shall conceal, postpone, or lie about emergencies or instruct others to conceal, postpone, or lie."


The China government is antithetical to what I believe a government should be.  But I think your conspiracy theory of deception is not justified.
Indeed, I would say that such an attitude may have been shared by those that didn't appreciate the gravity of what was being reported out of China.