[burger]

You can't enforce it with criminal sanction. But you can set up a regulatory and social environment in which the wearing of masks becomes customary. 

I also note that hand sanitizer is becoming ubiquitous. You see hand sanitizers in a jug outside of grocery stores, sanitary wipes, etc. My own thought is creating that regulatory environment, while opening up completely, is the way to go.

Have you seen what's happening in Florida and Arizona and South Carolina and Oklahoma and California and Oregon (I could go on)?  Exactly how many deaths are you comfortable with in the name of opening the economy?

I'm not sure your response answers GR's point.  Are you really going to have police going around issuing citations (I assume that's what it is) to people not wearing masks?  And what happens when citations are used against the most marginalized populations?

I kind of agree with GR.  Some things you enforce via cultural norms.

BC

GR called for a full reopening of the economy.  That's what I was responding to.

---

GR, can we drop the insults?  I have tried to argue directly against what you say and not call names.  You, like Trump, can't seem to post anything without insulting people here.  It's ironic that you accuse me of self-righteousness while simultaneously insulting me.



We discussed effects of recessions on mortality rates earlier here extensively.  Mortality rates go down during recessions, even after you account for suicides.  Here is just one example: https://academic.oup.com/qje/article-abs...17/1840483  So, the argument that we should save lives by reopening is specious.  Also, how do you keep people from killing themselves because of economic problem?  Extend the expanded unemployment benefits--Trump and the republicans are blocking this.

Another issues with your argument about saving lives by reopening is that even if we reopen everything, we will still be looking at a depression. a There was a study just this week that showed this (can't find it now).  The point was that enough people will stay home regardless of official orders to keep things depressed until we get a vaccine. 

So what happens if we follow your wish and reopen everything?  Dumb people will start hanging out together and spreading the virus.  We're seeing that right now in a bunch of states.  They will pass it on to their roommates and families and coworkers and so on, and we will end up with New York City's recent outcome in 100 cities or more.  It's going to be a disaster.  I don't see how anyone who saw what happened in New York City's hospitals can say that they are okay with outcome in the rest of the country.  Being jobless is a far better fate than dying alone in an ICU, isolated from your friends and family, on a ventilator.

Your argument about famine is also specious.  Contrary to what you said, American food exports nearly all go to developed countries (https://www.minnpost.com/earth-journal/2...countries/).  Even if we were feeding all the third world countries (we're not), as an American, I can't control what those countries do.  The best thing you or I can do to prevent famine elsewhere would still be to stay home, don't spread the virus, and hope that cases diminish here to the point where meatpacking plant workers and tomato pickers can safely do their jobs and we can export food to everyone.

Your fatalism about the virus is belied by the fact that we were getting it under control before the reopening started.  You act as if the virus cannot be controlled.  Examples in dozens of countries show this to be false.   And the US can get things under control by repeating what we did in March.  Really, this is going to happen whether you like it or not because when the hospitals fill up in Florida and Arizona and Alabama those states will be forced to reimplement the lockdowns.  There is no way around it, and when the images of overflowing hospitals hit the news, even idiots like DeSantis and Ducey will be forced to act.

I apologize if I was sputtering too much.  But I was wearing a mask, which should reduce the spread of any aerosols.

[burger]

You can't enforce it with criminal sanction. But you can set up a regulatory and social environment in which the wearing of masks becomes customary. 

I also note that hand sanitizer is becoming ubiquitous. You see hand sanitizers in a jug outside of grocery stores, sanitary wipes, etc. My own thought is creating that regulatory environment, while opening up completely, is the way to go.

Have you seen what's happening in Florida and Arizona and South Carolina and Oklahoma and California and Oregon (I could go on)?  Exactly how many deaths are you comfortable with in the name of opening the economy?

I'm not sure your response answers GR's point.  Are you really going to have police going around issuing citations (I assume that's what it is) to people not wearing masks?  And what happens when citations are used against the most marginalized populations?

I kind of agree with GR.  Some things you enforce via cultural norms.

BC

GR called for a full reopening of the economy.  That's what I was responding to.

---

GR, can we drop the insults?  I have tried to argue directly against what you say and not call names.  You, like Trump, can't seem to post anything without insulting people here.  It's ironic that you accuse me of self-righteousness while simultaneously insulting me.



We discussed effects of recessions on mortality rates earlier here extensively.  Mortality rates go down during recessions, even after you account for suicides.  Here is just one example: https://academic.oup.com/qje/article-abs...17/1840483  So, the argument that we should save lives by reopening is specious.  Also, how do you keep people from killing themselves because of economic problem?  Extend the expanded unemployment benefits--Trump and the republicans are blocking this.

Another issues with your argument about saving lives by reopening is that even if we reopen everything, we will still be looking at a depression. a There was a study just this week that showed this (can't find it now).  The point was that enough people will stay home regardless of official orders to keep things depressed until we get a vaccine. 

So what happens if we follow your wish and reopen everything?  Dumb people will start hanging out together and spreading the virus.  We're seeing that right now in a bunch of states.  They will pass it on to their roommates and families and coworkers and so on, and we will end up with New York City's recent outcome in 100 cities or more.  It's going to be a disaster.  I don't see how anyone who saw what happened in New York City's hospitals can say that they are okay with outcome in the rest of the country.  Being jobless is a far better fate than dying alone in an ICU, isolated from your friends and family, on a ventilator.

Your argument about famine is also specious.  Contrary to what you said, American food exports nearly all go to developed countries (https://www.minnpost.com/earth-journal/2...countries/).  Even if we were feeding all the third world countries (we're not), as an American, I can't control what those countries do.  The best thing you or I can do to prevent famine elsewhere would still be to stay home, don't spread the virus, and hope that cases diminish here to the point where meatpacking plant workers and tomato pickers can safely do their jobs and we can export food to everyone.

Your fatalism about the virus is belied by the fact that we were getting it under control before the reopening started.  You act as if the virus cannot be controlled.  Examples in dozens of countries show this to be false.   And the US can get things under control by repeating what we did in March.  Really, this is going to happen whether you like it or not because when the hospitals fill up in Florida and Arizona and Alabama those states will be forced to reimplement the lockdowns.  There is no way around it, and when the images of overflowing hospitals hit the news, even idiots like DeSantis and Ducey will be forced to act.

I apologize if I was sputtering too much.  But I was wearing a mask, which should reduce the spread of any aerosols.