[Goose]

I chose that specific chart to illustrate my point because it includes Canada and Australia also. My sense of Canada and Australia is that both have cultures roughly similar to our own regarding independence and anti-authoritarianism (that's not my expertise, so correct me if I'm wrong). And yet they managed to deal with this pandemic way better than we have. I think that despite our culture we would have done way better given the right leadership and the right messaging. And I'd hope we'd still be willing to pull together if we got the right message of unity from the right span of leaders. Of course not likely with this president, we all know that. But maybe starting in November?

I am pretty sure you are wrong. I spend lots of time in Australia, and I have worked with the Canadian Forces in the past. Certainly in Australia there is a sense of obligation to society and to your fellow Australian that simply does not exist in the USA. My Australian friends have commented on this several times. The idea of individual rights is very much tied to individual obligation. Australians routinely put up with things their government (particularly the police) does that would never be tolerated in the US. That said, there is lots of rough and tumble in politics, and many Australians really don't like the "opposition party" much. Things are said that would get you in trouble in the US. At the end of the day however, they are remarkably cooperative with whatever the plan comes out to be.
From my experience in Canada, it is somewhat similar. There are definite differences between Eastern Canada, Western Canada, and British Columbia in how Canadians see themselves with respect to others. However, the sense of "Don't tread on me" isn't really there. There are lots of historical reasons for this, but Canadians basically complain about things a lot and then do as they are told.
However, IMHO that turns out not to be the real issue anyway. See below.

The reason for examining this experience, and the the suggestion of nuance, is simple. It isn't so much that persuasion or force won't work, but that we have run out of authority. The basic anti-authoritarian 'don't-tread-on-me', element in American culture is in full play now. The absence of Presidential leadership doesn't help, but it is also true that it runs very deep in this society. Generally, that's an aspect of the culture to be appreciated. However, no question it is a problem in a pandemic.



So you try to think of some way to finesse this situation. Generally speaking, the slow retreat being undertaken by Newsome and Abbot seems most practical.

I don't think the failure to bring the curve down is based on a political statement or a "don't tread on me" attitude. Yes, such people exist. However, the vast majority of the problem is IMHO people who just don't get it or that get it and just don't care. . In the Bay Area, where the "don't tread on me" political sentiment is absent almost entirely, we have tons of people crowding into bars, going to the beach, not maintaining social distance, and not wearing masks. The reopening of the beaches themselves was basically forced by the fact the authorities felt they couldn't control the crowds. I saw many Memorial Day family get-togethers in my own neighborhood that violated all the rules. Many people on this board  have pointed out things like the 20 people elbow to elbow at the Gelato shop, or my pointing at the bike riders clustered around a table at Starbucks.
If all the trouble was clustered in "Red States", I would agree it might be political. But that is not the case. We have lots of trouble right here in California.
I do believe that the states who opened up quickly (like Texas) did it more for economic reasons than political ones. It was just plain stupid. Some people are using personal freedom arguments to just do what they want. Many. many more are just going to the beach to hang out because they want to do so, and don't care at all about having any justification. In the US, most people don't much care if what they do is detrimental to the society as a whole. It isn't their problem. They probably won't get COVID-19, and if they do, they probably will survive. What the effects of such behavior on others via virus spread just doesn't matter. This attitude is partly are result of the fact that in the US we don't socially punish failure to conform to social norms nearly as much as is done in other societies. At times, that is an advantage, but in this case, it is not. We also don't accept the idea that federal troops/federal police in the streets to enforce a curfew is a normal and proper activity. Most EU nations do.
Yes, better leadership might help this problem a bit, but I think only a bit. Many of the people not following the SIP guidelines would tell you how socially responsible they are one minute and then turn around and do the opposite. Maybe when these people are scared enough that will affect their behavior. Until then, it won't. These people may eventually get with the program, but by then it may be very late in the game.

[Goose]

I chose that specific chart to illustrate my point because it includes Canada and Australia also. My sense of Canada and Australia is that both have cultures roughly similar to our own regarding independence and anti-authoritarianism (that's not my expertise, so correct me if I'm wrong). And yet they managed to deal with this pandemic way better than we have. I think that despite our culture we would have done way better given the right leadership and the right messaging. And I'd hope we'd still be willing to pull together if we got the right message of unity from the right span of leaders. Of course not likely with this president, we all know that. But maybe starting in November?

I am pretty sure you are wrong. I spend lots of time in Australia, and I have worked with the Canadian Forces in the past. Certainly in Australia there is a sense of obligation to society and to your fellow Australian that simply does not exist in the USA. My Australian friends have commented on this several times. The idea of individual rights is very much tied to individual obligation. Australians routinely put up with things their government (particularly the police) does that would never be tolerated in the US. That said, there is lots of rough and tumble in politics, and many Australians really don't like the "opposition party" much. Things are said that would get you in trouble in the US. At the end of the day however, they are remarkably cooperative with whatever the plan comes out to be.
From my experience in Canada, it is somewhat similar. There are definite differences between Eastern Canada, Western Canada, and British Columbia in how Canadians see themselves with respect to others. However, the sense of "Don't tread on me" isn't really there. There are lots of historical reasons for this, but Canadians basically complain about things a lot and then do as they are told.
However, IMHO that turns out not to be the real issue anyway. See below.

The reason for examining this experience, and the the suggestion of nuance, is simple. It isn't so much that persuasion or force won't work, but that we have run out of authority. The basic anti-authoritarian 'don't-tread-on-me', element in American culture is in full play now. The absence of Presidential leadership doesn't help, but it is also true that it runs very deep in this society. Generally, that's an aspect of the culture to be appreciated. However, no question it is a problem in a pandemic.



So you try to think of some way to finesse this situation. Generally speaking, the slow retreat being undertaken by Newsome and Abbot seems most practical.

I don't think the failure to bring the curve down is based on a political statement or a "don't tread on me" attitude. Yes, such people exist. However, the vast majority of the problem is IMHO people who just don't get it or that get it and just don't care. . In the Bay Area, where the "don't tread on me" political sentiment is absent almost entirely, we have tons of people crowding into bars, going to the beach, not maintaining social distance, and not wearing masks. The reopening of the beaches themselves was basically forced by the fact the authorities felt they couldn't control the crowds. I saw many Memorial Day family get-togethers in my own neighborhood that violated all the rules. Many people on this board  have pointed out things like the 20 people elbow to elbow at the Gelato shop, or my pointing at the bike riders clustered around a table at Starbucks.
If all the trouble was clustered in "Red States", I would agree it might be political. But that is not the case. We have lots of trouble right here in California.
I do believe that the states who opened up quickly (like Texas) did it more for economic reasons than political ones. It was just plain stupid. Some people are using personal freedom arguments to just do what they want. Many. many more are just going to the beach to hang out because they want to do so, and don't care at all about having any justification. In the US, most people don't much care if what they do is detrimental to the society as a whole. It isn't their problem. They probably won't get COVID-19, and if they do, they probably will survive. What the effects of such behavior on others via virus spread just doesn't matter. This attitude is partly are result of the fact that in the US we don't socially punish failure to conform to social norms nearly as much as is done in other societies. At times, that is an advantage, but in this case, it is not. We also don't accept the idea that federal troops/federal police in the streets to enforce a curfew is a normal and proper activity. Most EU nations do.
Yes, better leadership might help this problem a bit, but I think only a bit. Many of the people not following the SIP guidelines would tell you how socially responsible they are one minute and then turn around and do the opposite. Maybe when these people are scared enough that will affect their behavior. Until then, it won't. These people may eventually get with the program, but by then it may be very late in the game.