[DocSavage87]

As you probably have already noted, I do believe that MOST Trump voters believe that the election was honest. The polls from Nov 7 to Nov 17 were taken before the court rulings and state election certifications etc. ... Yes, I believe that right now most (not all) Trump supporters believe the election was fair and that number is growing with each passing day. 

So there was a poll a few weeks ago that you now dismiss and claim that not only have the numbers flipped in terms of the % of his supporters who believe him, but you believe they believe him less every day.  I think you are simply postulating based on how you feel and not what we see.  You can claim Twitter, Fox, OAN, Newsmax, etc, are all not representative.  That's your opinion.  I think you are wrong.  You have no data to back you up.  I at least have some data that show recently, I was most certainly correct.  And that's before the echo chamber has plenty of chance to reinforce the lies.

Whether the remainder can be defined as "substantial" is probably arguable, but I certainly agree it isn't zero. However, that has little if anything to do with any of the points I made in my reply to your post. My point was and is "the idea that Trump's response determines the narrative is flawed". 

What is the "narrative" in your mind?  A consistent public message from the govt or the health care workers narrative?  Because it's patently absurd that the narrative pushed by the vast majority of health care workers hasn't been consistent now for many months.  You can use a stopwatch to see how fast people like you immediately reach for anecdotes back in March or April.  It's f**king end of November.  And the "narrative" has been mixed precisely because Trump has been a second larger channel that not only suppresses the healthcare perspective, but he's got the podium.

If you think Trump's messaging didn't greatly impact public perception, particularly for his base, we have nothing to talk about.  Period.  We have no common ground.

My point was that the CDC shipped a contaminated test, and that that fact (along with the CDC's somewhat confused public response to that fact) undermined public confidence in the CDC.

The vast majority of the people, particularly Trump supporters, don't even know the details of the early timeline other than Fox talking points, and the CDC problem on early testing is not a main one.  The fact that even now, in November, you cite this as the glaring problem other than the impact of Trump is amazing.  The fact you don't think the CEO of our country, POTUS, could've significantly pushed for money and initiatives to shore up all the deficiencies you mention (pre-dating Trump) is incredible.  This was a war.  Our president, just as he is doing now, plays golf while people die.  He'd rather blame prior Administrations than actively fix anything that needed fixing, particularly when he has an incredible mandate and reason to do so.

Nobody -- NOBODY thinks everything was just glorious with the healthcare infrastructure pre-Trump.  Nobody thinks the issues will magically resolve when Trump leaves, particularly since he continues to feed disinformation to a large % of population.  These are straw men arguments that you and your ilk constantly trot out.  The complaint is that NOT ONLY DID TRUMP NOT WORK TO FIX THE ISSUES DURING THE PANDEMIC WHEN HE HAD CLEAR MANDATE, HE MADE THINGS MUCH MUCH WORSE.  Not only on the infrastructure, but the key factor -- public messaging to help compliance.

[DocSavage87]

As you probably have already noted, I do believe that MOST Trump voters believe that the election was honest. The polls from Nov 7 to Nov 17 were taken before the court rulings and state election certifications etc. ... Yes, I believe that right now most (not all) Trump supporters believe the election was fair and that number is growing with each passing day. 

So there was a poll a few weeks ago that you now dismiss and claim that not only have the numbers flipped in terms of the % of his supporters who believe him, but you believe they believe him less every day.  I think you are simply postulating based on how you feel and not what we see.  You can claim Twitter, Fox, OAN, Newsmax, etc, are all not representative.  That's your opinion.  I think you are wrong.  You have no data to back you up.  I at least have some data that show recently, I was most certainly correct.  And that's before the echo chamber has plenty of chance to reinforce the lies.

Whether the remainder can be defined as "substantial" is probably arguable, but I certainly agree it isn't zero. However, that has little if anything to do with any of the points I made in my reply to your post. My point was and is "the idea that Trump's response determines the narrative is flawed". 

What is the "narrative" in your mind?  A consistent public message from the govt or the health care workers narrative?  Because it's patently absurd that the narrative pushed by the vast majority of health care workers hasn't been consistent now for many months.  You can use a stopwatch to see how fast people like you immediately reach for anecdotes back in March or April.  It's f**king end of November.  And the "narrative" has been mixed precisely because Trump has been a second larger channel that not only suppresses the healthcare perspective, but he's got the podium.

If you think Trump's messaging didn't greatly impact public perception, particularly for his base, we have nothing to talk about.  Period.  We have no common ground.

My point was that the CDC shipped a contaminated test, and that that fact (along with the CDC's somewhat confused public response to that fact) undermined public confidence in the CDC.

The vast majority of the people, particularly Trump supporters, don't even know the details of the early timeline other than Fox talking points, and the CDC problem on early testing is not a main one.  The fact that even now, in November, you cite this as the glaring problem other than the impact of Trump is amazing.  The fact you don't think the CEO of our country, POTUS, could've significantly pushed for money and initiatives to shore up all the deficiencies you mention (pre-dating Trump) is incredible.  This was a war.  Our president, just as he is doing now, plays golf while people die.  He'd rather blame prior Administrations than actively fix anything that needed fixing, particularly when he has an incredible mandate and reason to do so.

Nobody -- NOBODY thinks everything was just glorious with the healthcare infrastructure pre-Trump.  Nobody thinks the issues will magically resolve when Trump leaves, particularly since he continues to feed disinformation to a large % of population.  These are straw men arguments that you and your ilk constantly trot out.  The complaint is that NOT ONLY DID TRUMP NOT WORK TO FIX THE ISSUES DURING THE PANDEMIC WHEN HE HAD CLEAR MANDATE, HE MADE THINGS MUCH MUCH WORSE.  Not only on the infrastructure, but the key factor -- public messaging to help compliance.