[Genuine Realist]

This thread reminds me how much I miss facts. We used to be able to agree on essential facts and then discuss the meaning. Politicians caught lying were run out of politics. Nowadays we argue what the actual facts are. 

That’s a very sad change for the worse, over the last few decades. 

I actively ask, for this board, whether anybody is disputing any of the following four points. 

1. Tens of millions of Americans didn’t and don’t cooperate with masks and distancing.
   
2. The president of the USA repeatedly, from March through October at least, encouraged that attitude.  
   
3. Tens of millions of Americans either believe the recent election was flawed or wish it were and don’t mind pretending it was; and would happily have Trump remain in office. 
   
4. The president of the USA has strongly encouraged that belief and behavior. 
   

Do you agree? Are there posters here who are arguing with any of these four points? I think not, but sometimes I read posts here that make me wonder.

I for sure agree totally with 2,3, and 4. I basically agree with 1 as well, but I think it is more of a vector. There are varying degrees of compliance. Some people don't wear masks but do distance. Many more do both some of the time. Are there tens of millions that do neither ever? That I don't know, but it is probably a detail. They substantially don't. So, with these things I agree, FWIW.

I don't think the numbers are anything more than guesstimates. Then you have to try to determine the degree of conviction, from offhand opinion to absolutely certain belief. What seems to be quite true is that both the numbers and degree of certainty are diminishing rapidly over time as lawsuits collapse and are revealed to be wholly unfounded. Like Goose, I'm a fairly firm believe in the rationality of the public.

Also, in general, it's a lot better to focus on freeing yourself from your own illusions than concentrate too much on someone else's.

[Genuine Realist]

This thread reminds me how much I miss facts. We used to be able to agree on essential facts and then discuss the meaning. Politicians caught lying were run out of politics. Nowadays we argue what the actual facts are. 

That’s a very sad change for the worse, over the last few decades. 

I actively ask, for this board, whether anybody is disputing any of the following four points. 

1. Tens of millions of Americans didn’t and don’t cooperate with masks and distancing.
   
2. The president of the USA repeatedly, from March through October at least, encouraged that attitude.  
   
3. Tens of millions of Americans either believe the recent election was flawed or wish it were and don’t mind pretending it was; and would happily have Trump remain in office. 
   
4. The president of the USA has strongly encouraged that belief and behavior. 
   

Do you agree? Are there posters here who are arguing with any of these four points? I think not, but sometimes I read posts here that make me wonder.

I for sure agree totally with 2,3, and 4. I basically agree with 1 as well, but I think it is more of a vector. There are varying degrees of compliance. Some people don't wear masks but do distance. Many more do both some of the time. Are there tens of millions that do neither ever? That I don't know, but it is probably a detail. They substantially don't. So, with these things I agree, FWIW.

I don't think the numbers are anything more than guesstimates. Then you have to try to determine the degree of conviction, from offhand opinion to absolutely certain belief. What seems to be quite true is that both the numbers and degree of certainty are diminishing rapidly over time as lawsuits collapse and are revealed to be wholly unfounded. Like Goose, I'm a fairly firm believe in the rationality of the public.

Also, in general, it's a lot better to focus on freeing yourself from your own illusions than concentrate too much on someone else's.