[DC 86]

Players seem to truly love Shaw today.

Not sure about that, which is normal.

In my years of fandom my impression is that the Stanford football head coach who has come closest to being universally loved by his players (as a person) was Paul Wiggin.

You neutered my meaning by omitting the second sentence. My point was comparing the apparent "players'-coach" bonhomie that Shaw seems to have created no longer delivers the sterling the results he once enjoyed. Your reference to Wiggin is more to my point: His lovable-guy persona did not make for a memorable career at his alma mater, nor with the Chiefs in the NFL. Players need a demanding coach, not a favorite uncle or another dad.

I was actually agreeing with your premise about a head coach being loved not necessarily being desirable and offering Wiggin as an example, but disagreeing about the extent to which Shaw is loved by his players. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough.

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I think it is clear that JH can get results under the right circumstances. I am less convinced he is a "good coach".

At USD his record was 29-6.

His tenure at Stanford you are familiar with, I assume.

He took over a 49er team that had gone 46-82 under its previous four coaches and went 44-19.

He took over a Michigan team that under his two immediate predecessors had gone 46-42 (24-32 in conference) and has gone 61-24 (42-17 in conference).

In all four jobs he created "the right circumstances", they weren't "the right circumstances" before him and in several cases after him either.

Perhaps you meant "good coach" in some other sense? in terms of results he is a fantastic coach.

He created the "right circumstances" for which he should receive full credit. I think he has excelled in taking advantage of what was available when he got there and molding it into a program that has success. It is unclear that the model he creates is sustainable. He has not really been in a situation to demonstrate that as he has either moved on or was asked to move on. For a coach to be a "good coach" IMHO you have to demonstrate sustained success. Some coaches are known as "slash and burn" types that do well for a while but an accumulation of issues eventually takes them down. I think Michigan is a program that has many inherent strengths that JH has taken advantage of, but his trajectory was pretty flat/trending down. He felt that he needed to take the program to the next level to compete with tOSU. He wanted "speed in space", but he wasn't getting it. Many people at all levels of Michigan fandom had lost faith. IMHO EUTM works only as long as people trust you. After touting recruits as "the best ever" and then throwing them away a few times, that trust is strained. A 2-4 season doesn't bode well for the future. More strained trust.

I don't think it's clear at all that he would have been fired in 2020 absent Covid, but if he had been it would have demonstrated terrible shortsightedness on the part of Warde Manuel if his goal was for the program to rank in the upper echelon of college football.

Well, if they were 4-8 in a full "normal" year history at Michigan says it would be pretty probable, especially for a coach whose contract was expiring anyway. I think for JH the problem is that Warde Manual's goal isn't ranking in the "upper echelon" of college football. It is winning the B1G and the CFP championship with some regularity. That is just plain hard to do even once and even more difficult to do year after year. Michigan has an unfortunate history of being good but not good enough, even going back to the days of Bo. Unreasonable expectations on the part of the fans don't help. I think JH is fully aware of this situation. It will be interesting to see it play out.

His trajectory at Michigan was indeed fairly flat, but at a level that was far better than Michigan had been at prior to his arrival.

If Manuel (and Michigan fans/boosters) consider winning the B1G championship and the CFP "with some regularity" to be the expectation then they are fools. In the last 73 seasons Michigan has won one national championship (split with Nebraska). The last time Michigan won the B1G prior to this year was 2004. As you alluded to, perhaps its just a case of unreasonable expectations, but that doesn't change the fact that Harbaugh's performance there has been very good in the context of recent history.

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Only issue is whether he wears out his welcome.  I suppose we shall see.  Plenty of NFL teams need new blood.  Heck, maybe he could turn Jacksonville around.  To me, turnarounds are his strength.

I'm sure he has worn out his welcome with a lot of people just based on his personality, it's just a matter of whether the results are worth the aggravations.

Harbaugh coaching the Raiders just makes way too much sense to me. Connection to the Davis family and experience coaching in the organization, star power (important in Las Vegas), reasonably talented roster. And of course he played for the Bears, they have a talented young QB and a decent roster, another interesting possibility.

[DC 86]

Players seem to truly love Shaw today.

Not sure about that, which is normal.

In my years of fandom my impression is that the Stanford football head coach who has come closest to being universally loved by his players (as a person) was Paul Wiggin.

You neutered my meaning by omitting the second sentence. My point was comparing the apparent "players'-coach" bonhomie that Shaw seems to have created no longer delivers the sterling the results he once enjoyed. Your reference to Wiggin is more to my point: His lovable-guy persona did not make for a memorable career at his alma mater, nor with the Chiefs in the NFL. Players need a demanding coach, not a favorite uncle or another dad.

I was actually agreeing with your premise about a head coach being loved not necessarily being desirable and offering Wiggin as an example, but disagreeing about the extent to which Shaw is loved by his players. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough.

---

I think it is clear that JH can get results under the right circumstances. I am less convinced he is a "good coach".

At USD his record was 29-6.

His tenure at Stanford you are familiar with, I assume.

He took over a 49er team that had gone 46-82 under its previous four coaches and went 44-19.

He took over a Michigan team that under his two immediate predecessors had gone 46-42 (24-32 in conference) and has gone 61-24 (42-17 in conference).

In all four jobs he created "the right circumstances", they weren't "the right circumstances" before him and in several cases after him either.

Perhaps you meant "good coach" in some other sense? in terms of results he is a fantastic coach.

He created the "right circumstances" for which he should receive full credit. I think he has excelled in taking advantage of what was available when he got there and molding it into a program that has success. It is unclear that the model he creates is sustainable. He has not really been in a situation to demonstrate that as he has either moved on or was asked to move on. For a coach to be a "good coach" IMHO you have to demonstrate sustained success. Some coaches are known as "slash and burn" types that do well for a while but an accumulation of issues eventually takes them down. I think Michigan is a program that has many inherent strengths that JH has taken advantage of, but his trajectory was pretty flat/trending down. He felt that he needed to take the program to the next level to compete with tOSU. He wanted "speed in space", but he wasn't getting it. Many people at all levels of Michigan fandom had lost faith. IMHO EUTM works only as long as people trust you. After touting recruits as "the best ever" and then throwing them away a few times, that trust is strained. A 2-4 season doesn't bode well for the future. More strained trust.

I don't think it's clear at all that he would have been fired in 2020 absent Covid, but if he had been it would have demonstrated terrible shortsightedness on the part of Warde Manuel if his goal was for the program to rank in the upper echelon of college football.

Well, if they were 4-8 in a full "normal" year history at Michigan says it would be pretty probable, especially for a coach whose contract was expiring anyway. I think for JH the problem is that Warde Manual's goal isn't ranking in the "upper echelon" of college football. It is winning the B1G and the CFP championship with some regularity. That is just plain hard to do even once and even more difficult to do year after year. Michigan has an unfortunate history of being good but not good enough, even going back to the days of Bo. Unreasonable expectations on the part of the fans don't help. I think JH is fully aware of this situation. It will be interesting to see it play out.

His trajectory at Michigan was indeed fairly flat, but at a level that was far better than Michigan had been at prior to his arrival.

If Manuel (and Michigan fans/boosters) consider winning the B1G championship and the CFP "with some regularity" to be the expectation then they are fools. In the last 73 seasons Michigan has won one national championship (split with Nebraska). The last time Michigan won the B1G prior to this year was 2004. As you alluded to, perhaps its just a case of unreasonable expectations, but that doesn't change the fact that Harbaugh's performance there has been very good in the context of recent history.

---

Only issue is whether he wears out his welcome.  I suppose we shall see.  Plenty of NFL teams need new blood.  Heck, maybe he could turn Jacksonville around.  To me, turnarounds are his strength.

I'm sure he has worn out his welcome with a lot of people just based on his personality, it's just a matter of whether the results are worth the aggravations.

Harbaugh coaching the Raiders just makes way too much sense to me. Connection to the Davis family and experience coaching in the organization, star power (important in Las Vegas), reasonably talented roster. And of course he played for the Bears, they have a talented young QB and a decent roster, another interesting possibility.