[Alvin]

Agree with both of you although the defining moment may have been not choosing Fangio or Roman in 2011.

I really don’t understand this argument. Yes, Shaw is terrible now and the time has come for him to go (although it won’t happen anytime soon). But Shaw is also responsible for directing several of the best seasons in program history. There’s no guarantee and I’d actually argue that it’s highly unlikely that Fangio or Roman would have been able to replicate Shaw’s early success. Shaw was the right choice at the right time for the job. The state of the program at the time was such that it accentuated his strengths and minimized his weaknesses. Over the long haul, the state of the program has changed such that his weaknesses are exposed for all to see. But our current struggles are a price I’d gladly pay 10 times out of 10 for the euphoria of the Rose Bowls we experienced.

If you are a true Shaw boo-bird you think that Harbaugh left such a treasure chest that any coach worth his salt could have accomplished what Shaw did from 2011-2015. That's BS of course, but some people have convinced themselves that it is true,

I also agree that Shaw was the right pick at the time.  He took Harbaugh's players and system and got spectacular results during his first five seasons.  The problem is that there were visible cracks in the foundation as early as the 2016 and 2017 seasons (despite our winning the North in 2017).  The trends were not good; the numbers pointed toward decline across the board.  And once rot sets in, the descent can be rapid (as we finally discovered in 2019).

Though I would assert that Wisconsin, for example, shot too early in firing Chryst this season, the administration at Stanford (and David Shaw) have let this downward process go on for far too long; and getting out of this morass will be a painful, multi-year process for any successor who takes on the turnaround project.  Shaw's ultimate failing is that he allowed the coaching staff to degrade during his tenure and never held his lieutenants accountable for their performance.

Seems to me like the inflection point was the two back to back blowout losses to Washington and Washington State in early 2016. We had won something like 14 out of our last 15 games up to then. Didn't seem to me we were ever quite the same afterward.

Agree with most of the sentiments in this thread except for two. I think Shaw did a helluva job in the Covid lockdown year of 2020 where we spent the final month of the season practicing and playing on the road with wins at Oregon St, UW, and UCLA to name a few. Mills was held out of the Oregon game and missed practicing the entire week leading up to Colorado because of a stupid false positive and no symptoms. We played at Oregon with the worst starting QB in Stanford football history (West). It took Mills a half during the Colorado game to get into form.  I think we could have won both of those game or at least finished 5-1 and a Jan 1 bowl berth had Mills not been mistakenly kept out of practice and the Oregon game. Not to mention we had a very young team at the skill positions, offensive line and at most defensive positions. 

The other comment I want to respond is the decision to not hire Fangio or Roman.  I can't comment on Roman, because I don't know much about him, but Fangio was ready to be put out to pasture in 2010.  He looked old and tired in my opinion and not someone who could at least maintain or take Stanford to new heights. Sort of like Walt Harris in 2005 or even Bill Walsh in the mid 90s. Shaw was the right choice. But now it's time for Stanford football to drop football or shift down to a lower division...unless drastic changes are made to academic and transfer policies.

[Alvin]

Agree with both of you although the defining moment may have been not choosing Fangio or Roman in 2011.

I really don’t understand this argument. Yes, Shaw is terrible now and the time has come for him to go (although it won’t happen anytime soon). But Shaw is also responsible for directing several of the best seasons in program history. There’s no guarantee and I’d actually argue that it’s highly unlikely that Fangio or Roman would have been able to replicate Shaw’s early success. Shaw was the right choice at the right time for the job. The state of the program at the time was such that it accentuated his strengths and minimized his weaknesses. Over the long haul, the state of the program has changed such that his weaknesses are exposed for all to see. But our current struggles are a price I’d gladly pay 10 times out of 10 for the euphoria of the Rose Bowls we experienced.

If you are a true Shaw boo-bird you think that Harbaugh left such a treasure chest that any coach worth his salt could have accomplished what Shaw did from 2011-2015. That's BS of course, but some people have convinced themselves that it is true,

I also agree that Shaw was the right pick at the time.  He took Harbaugh's players and system and got spectacular results during his first five seasons.  The problem is that there were visible cracks in the foundation as early as the 2016 and 2017 seasons (despite our winning the North in 2017).  The trends were not good; the numbers pointed toward decline across the board.  And once rot sets in, the descent can be rapid (as we finally discovered in 2019).

Though I would assert that Wisconsin, for example, shot too early in firing Chryst this season, the administration at Stanford (and David Shaw) have let this downward process go on for far too long; and getting out of this morass will be a painful, multi-year process for any successor who takes on the turnaround project.  Shaw's ultimate failing is that he allowed the coaching staff to degrade during his tenure and never held his lieutenants accountable for their performance.

Seems to me like the inflection point was the two back to back blowout losses to Washington and Washington State in early 2016. We had won something like 14 out of our last 15 games up to then. Didn't seem to me we were ever quite the same afterward.

Agree with most of the sentiments in this thread except for two. I think Shaw did a helluva job in the Covid lockdown year of 2020 where we spent the final month of the season practicing and playing on the road with wins at Oregon St, UW, and UCLA to name a few. Mills was held out of the Oregon game and missed practicing the entire week leading up to Colorado because of a stupid false positive and no symptoms. We played at Oregon with the worst starting QB in Stanford football history (West). It took Mills a half during the Colorado game to get into form.  I think we could have won both of those game or at least finished 5-1 and a Jan 1 bowl berth had Mills not been mistakenly kept out of practice and the Oregon game. Not to mention we had a very young team at the skill positions, offensive line and at most defensive positions. 

The other comment I want to respond is the decision to not hire Fangio or Roman.  I can't comment on Roman, because I don't know much about him, but Fangio was ready to be put out to pasture in 2010.  He looked old and tired in my opinion and not someone who could at least maintain or take Stanford to new heights. Sort of like Walt Harris in 2005 or even Bill Walsh in the mid 90s. Shaw was the right choice. But now it's time for Stanford football to drop football or shift down to a lower division...unless drastic changes are made to academic and transfer policies.