[Mick]

[quote author=Mick link=topic=10701.msg99490#msg99490 date=1411865714]
Davis went 58-59 at Stanford.  The football record for those years (Wiggin and Elway) was 15-29, tied for the eighth-worst four year stretch in the 100+ year history of Stanford football.  This suggests to me that there may be a degree of merit to the theory that Davis could not get good recruits into Stanford.

Well, Tom Davis recruited Todd Lichti, Terry Taylor, Eric Reveno, and Howard Wright.  With Lichti, and Wright as starters in 85-86 (along with Koberlein, Ramee and part-time starters Greg Butler, Andy Fischer), Davis got 14 wins.  Enter Mike Montgomery. In 87-88, Monty gets 21 wins from Lichti, Wright, Taylor, Butler, and McSweeney.  I don't think recruiting was the problem.  I think Davis probably felt he didn't get the players he wanted, but the talent was there...
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Using your own logic then, Davis was a quantum leap over DiBiaso.  In the three years prior to Davis' arrival, DiBiaso won 7, 9 and 7 games in the three years prior to Davis' arrival.  In Davis' first two years after DiBiaso, he won 14 and 19 games, not hugely different from Montgomery's two seasons.  You conveniently didn't mention Montgomery's first 15-13 year in 1986-1987.  While his record was slightly stronger than Davis', his team averaged essentially the same as his opponents, whereas Davis' team averaged 74.1 ppg and gave up 70.3 And finally, the years you cited happened when Davis' players were two years older than they were when they played for Davis AND were joined by Andrew Vlahov, Stanford's first international player of substance.  And while Monty did well with Davis' recruits, he got into the NCAAs exactly twice in his first eight years coaching Stanford.

Davis didn't have horrible players, he just didn't have and couldn't get great players.  He couldn't luck into the Lopez twins, and NBA players from Marin County like Lichti don't come along very often.  He got exactly what Stanford typically got...lots of decent suburban players, enough to play .500 ball but not much better.  And he benefited from a 7 foot center from Santa Cruz in Tim Young, Davis didn't have that kind of center.

Look, I'm not saying Monty was a bad coach, he was a great coach.  And his schemes and style were more appropriate for Stanford than run-and-gun, full court press Davis (which was his preferred style and which he employed at Iowa).  All I am saying is that Davis wasn't wrong when he complained about not being able to get in great recruits.  Monty's genius couldn't get Davis' recruits to the NCAAs either, twice in his first eight years, although his regular season record was better.  In fact, in the 13 years that Davis and Montgomery coached Stanford and Iowa thereafter, Montgomery's season record was better than Davis 7 times.  But in that time frame, Davis went to the NCAAs ten times and Monty went 7 times.  Davis didn't have a first round loss, Monty had two first round losses.  Neither won the NCAAs.  Monty did get to one final four.

Knowing how these things work, I suspect that admissions loosened restrictions as Montgomery demonstrated a degree of success and his players graduated and didn't get into trouble, and great for Monty and great for us.  But I think Davis would have done better with better players.

[Mick]

[quote author=Mick link=topic=10701.msg99490#msg99490 date=1411865714]
Davis went 58-59 at Stanford.  The football record for those years (Wiggin and Elway) was 15-29, tied for the eighth-worst four year stretch in the 100+ year history of Stanford football.  This suggests to me that there may be a degree of merit to the theory that Davis could not get good recruits into Stanford.

Well, Tom Davis recruited Todd Lichti, Terry Taylor, Eric Reveno, and Howard Wright.  With Lichti, and Wright as starters in 85-86 (along with Koberlein, Ramee and part-time starters Greg Butler, Andy Fischer), Davis got 14 wins.  Enter Mike Montgomery. In 87-88, Monty gets 21 wins from Lichti, Wright, Taylor, Butler, and McSweeney.  I don't think recruiting was the problem.  I think Davis probably felt he didn't get the players he wanted, but the talent was there...
[/quote]


Using your own logic then, Davis was a quantum leap over DiBiaso.  In the three years prior to Davis' arrival, DiBiaso won 7, 9 and 7 games in the three years prior to Davis' arrival.  In Davis' first two years after DiBiaso, he won 14 and 19 games, not hugely different from Montgomery's two seasons.  You conveniently didn't mention Montgomery's first 15-13 year in 1986-1987.  While his record was slightly stronger than Davis', his team averaged essentially the same as his opponents, whereas Davis' team averaged 74.1 ppg and gave up 70.3 And finally, the years you cited happened when Davis' players were two years older than they were when they played for Davis AND were joined by Andrew Vlahov, Stanford's first international player of substance.  And while Monty did well with Davis' recruits, he got into the NCAAs exactly twice in his first eight years coaching Stanford.

Davis didn't have horrible players, he just didn't have and couldn't get great players.  He couldn't luck into the Lopez twins, and NBA players from Marin County like Lichti don't come along very often.  He got exactly what Stanford typically got...lots of decent suburban players, enough to play .500 ball but not much better.  And he benefited from a 7 foot center from Santa Cruz in Tim Young, Davis didn't have that kind of center.

Look, I'm not saying Monty was a bad coach, he was a great coach.  And his schemes and style were more appropriate for Stanford than run-and-gun, full court press Davis (which was his preferred style and which he employed at Iowa).  All I am saying is that Davis wasn't wrong when he complained about not being able to get in great recruits.  Monty's genius couldn't get Davis' recruits to the NCAAs either, twice in his first eight years, although his regular season record was better.  In fact, in the 13 years that Davis and Montgomery coached Stanford and Iowa thereafter, Montgomery's season record was better than Davis 7 times.  But in that time frame, Davis went to the NCAAs ten times and Monty went 7 times.  Davis didn't have a first round loss, Monty had two first round losses.  Neither won the NCAAs.  Monty did get to one final four.

Knowing how these things work, I suspect that admissions loosened restrictions as Montgomery demonstrated a degree of success and his players graduated and didn't get into trouble, and great for Monty and great for us.  But I think Davis would have done better with better players.