Threats to public health officials

[lex24]

So, to those of who that care about anything other than throwing barbs against “them” here’s two good reads:  “ The Righteous Mind: Why good people can’t talk about religion and politics.” By Jonathan Haidt. Written in 2013.  Haidt is a social psychologist.  He taught at the Univ of Virginia and now is at the Stern School of Business at NYU.

Haidt’s latest book, written with Greg Luckianoff is “The Coddling of the American Mind:  How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas are Setting Up a Generation for Failure.” Written in 2018

These books are apolitical in the right/left sense. They are thought provoking and timely.  And they explain the deepening divide.  In a non-partisan fashion.

Because whatever side one is on - it’s the other side that is doing the bad stuff.  And unfortunately in today’s world, whichever side you are on, you can essentially surround yourself with like minded people, and reinforce your beliefs by reading and watching “news” that supports your view.  

It is a great danger to our democracy.  It did not start with Trump.  (Although he took a flame thrower to it and used it to his advantage). Nor will it end with him.  And given the paucity of politicians that wish to do anything but support “the base” we can’t rely on our leaders.  Working towards bridging the divide starts with us. 

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[Goose]

I think those who cite history to draw parallels between the USA today and Germany in 1933 are very far wide of the mark. Germany had been a monarchy until 1918, pretty much an absolute monarchy, with no tradition of democratic government. Most of the upper and upper middle class were still monarchist in political leaning. Germany had been defeated in a major war and then their country had been occupied, the Rhur twice. Inflation was in the thousands of percent. Their was open fighting in the streets between various political groups. Freikorps still existed. There had just been several elections in a row where no majority existed and the resulting government had existed only for a short time before another election was necessary. The vast majority of the country had no love for the Weimar Republic and wanted something else, anything else, but above all wanted to survive.

Hitler was a charismatic leader with a plan. Even in 1933 there were people who would die for the cause. Hitler took full advantage of his appointment (caused by desperation of any other alternative) to seize power. I seriously doubt that you will find anyone who is willing to "Die for the Donald". Trump is not a leader, let alone a charismatic one. He has done nothing like Hitler did to cement his own power, and he is President of a country with a strong democratic tradition that believes in democracy. This country is also not in severe economic distress, at least not as compared to Germany in 1933. Trump has not exactly "bound the Reichswehr to himself" as Hitler did even before he became chancellor. In short, the idea that Trump could retain control of the government after his term expires is very, very far-fetched. This is not to say he may not try, which would be an embarassment to the nation. However, he has no chance of success.

[teejers1]

Because whatever side one is on - it’s the other side that is doing the bad stuff.  And unfortunately in today’s world, whichever side you are on, you can essentially surround yourself with like minded people, and reinforce your beliefs by reading and watching “news” that supports your view. 
 

This thread demonstrates that perfectly.

But just in case JAF's and Dabig's coup comes through, I better go buy some guns to protect my $hit!

Also, we all should buy Lotto tickets for the Super Universal Power Ball drawing because .  . . well . . . you know, there's not a zero chance that we could win.

And lastly, what's the significance of "left" or "right" in terms of historical bad guys?  Was Stalin left or right?  Hitler?  Mao?  Robespierre?  Take your pick.  Strikes me that very real threats can come from any side.  And Trump, while a narcissistic sore-loser, will not "rise" to the level of these historic figures, despite the rather hysteric alarm-bell-ringing in these parts.  

You'd like to think Trump will depart the White House with some scintilla of dignity left on his own, but if he has to be physically removed to vacate . . . then so be it.

[JustAnotherFan]

Because whatever side one is on - it’s the other side that is doing the bad stuff.  And unfortunately in today’s world, whichever side you are on, you can essentially surround yourself with like minded people, and reinforce your beliefs by reading and watching “news” that supports your view. 
 

This thread demonstrates that perfectly.

But just in case JAF's and Dabig's coup comes through, I better go buy some guns to protect my $hit!

Also, we all should buy Lotto tickets for the Super Universal Power Ball drawing because .  . . well . . . you know, there's not a zero chance that we could win.

And lastly, what's the significance of "left" or "right" in terms of historical bad guys?  Was Stalin left or right?  Hitler?  Mao?  Robespierre?  Take your pick.  Strikes me that very real threats can come from any side.  And Trump, while a narcissistic sore-loser, will not "rise" to the level of these historic figures, despite the rather hysteric alarm-bell-ringing in these parts.  

You'd like to think Trump will depart the White House with some scintilla of dignity left on his own, but if he has to be physically removed to vacate . . . then so be it.

If you think that the odds of winning the lotto is anywhere near as likely as a coup was this November then I can waive you off as historically and numerically clueless. In fact, I'm going to add you to a tiny list of people whose opinion is so meaningless and value-subtract that it earns an ignore.

[Goose]

And lastly, what's the significance of "left" or "right" in terms of historical bad guys?  Was Stalin left or right?  Hitler?  Mao?  Robespierre?  Take your pick.  Strikes me that very real threats can come from any side.  And Trump, while a narcissistic sore-loser, will not "rise" to the level of these historic figures, despite the rather hysteric alarm-bell-ringing in these parts.  


You'd like to think Trump will depart the White House with some scintilla of dignity left on his own, but if he has to be physically removed to vacate . . . then so be it.

My goodness Teejers1, you and I totally agree one something! However, I sometimes thing Trump does actually look a bit like Il Duce with more hair. Now, about David Shaw...

[82 Card]

I think you mean liberal coalition.  Hitler was a lefty.

The Australian Broadcasting Corporation covers this sort of revisionist nonsense under Religion and Ethics: Nazism, socialism and the falsification of history

[teejers1]

And lastly, what's the significance of "left" or "right" in terms of historical bad guys?  Was Stalin left or right?  Hitler?  Mao?  Robespierre?  Take your pick.  Strikes me that very real threats can come from any side.  And Trump, while a narcissistic sore-loser, will not "rise" to the level of these historic figures, despite the rather hysteric alarm-bell-ringing in these parts.  


You'd like to think Trump will depart the White House with some scintilla of dignity left on his own, but if he has to be physically removed to vacate . . . then so be it.

My goodness Teejers1, you and I totally agree one something! However, I sometimes thing Trump does actually look a bit like Il Duce with more hair. Now, about David Shaw...

You'll come around on Shaw . . . as most others have already.  Points to you for loyalty.

---

Because whatever side one is on - it’s the other side that is doing the bad stuff.  And unfortunately in today’s world, whichever side you are on, you can essentially surround yourself with like minded people, and reinforce your beliefs by reading and watching “news” that supports your view. 
 

This thread demonstrates that perfectly.

But just in case JAF's and Dabig's coup comes through, I better go buy some guns to protect my $hit!

Also, we all should buy Lotto tickets for the Super Universal Power Ball drawing because .  . . well . . . you know, there's not a zero chance that we could win.

And lastly, what's the significance of "left" or "right" in terms of historical bad guys?  Was Stalin left or right?  Hitler?  Mao?  Robespierre?  Take your pick.  Strikes me that very real threats can come from any side.  And Trump, while a narcissistic sore-loser, will not "rise" to the level of these historic figures, despite the rather hysteric alarm-bell-ringing in these parts.  

You'd like to think Trump will depart the White House with some scintilla of dignity left on his own, but if he has to be physically removed to vacate . . . then so be it.

If you think that the odds of winning the lotto is anywhere near as likely as a coup was this November then I can waive you off as historically and numerically clueless. In fact, I'm going to add you to a tiny list of people whose opinion is so meaningless and value-subtract that it earns an ignore.

That'll show me!

Some folks on this board are so precious.

[2006alum]

Are we even trying to enforce the Terry Rule or is it just a Hobbesian conversational state of nature these days? I don't have time to actively moderate for a while, but I will say as a quasi-regular lurker, I feel like once these threads turn political their utility--for those of us not pining for their days in the Oxford Union--could be graphed: the limit of f(new posts) as new posts approach infinity is zero...

[BostonCard]

I believe this is the last post in this thread that mentions COVID-19.  Please let's refocus all.


BC

Re-upping this, as much as it pains me because I am enjoying the discussion and have thoughts.

Giuliani is talking about the election, not COVID-19.  Carlson is talking about the election, not COVID-19.  Whether a coup is carried out or not will not be dependent on COVID-19.  Please, let's keep the discussion focused on the virus and direct actions on it.

BC

I tried, but I don't like to resort to locking threads.

BC

[CompSci87]

I don't come to the Covid board to moderate and don't read most of the threads.

When I do come by, I actually find some of the political posts interesting as people get past the excessive partisanship and start giving the substance of their own thoughts.

[JustAnotherFan]

The good news:

Michigan certifies Biden's win as Trump challenges in other key states fizzle. https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/23/politics/...index.html 

and 

Looks like Trump's hopes of stealing the election have almost fizzled out. Trump seems dejected and defeated and does not seem to want to put up more of a fight, as of tonight. 

Biden's team has been selecting people who seem intent on reversing much of the most harmful aspects of the Trump regime, and I have to believe that his response to Covid-19 is going to be as aggressive as possible in order to try to regain trust in the government. 

Today is a good day in terms of turning the page.

[BostonCard]

Word is Biden is nominating Janet Yellen to be treasury secretary (relevant to the COVID-19 recovery).

Question will be who gets nominated to head HHS, CDC, and FDA.

Some views on FDA: https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/940669
Some thoughts on HHS: https://www.healthaffairs.org/do/10.1377...0988/full/
Some candidates: https://www.medpagetoday.com/washington-...rage/88033

BC

[Genuine Realist]

The good news:

Michigan certifies Biden's win as Trump challenges in other key states fizzle. https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/23/politics/...index.html 

and 

Looks like Trump's hopes of stealing the election have almost fizzled out. Trump seems dejected and defeated and does not seem to want to put up more of a fight, as of tonight. 

Biden's team has been selecting people who seem intent on reversing much of the most harmful aspects of the Trump regime, and I have to believe that his response to Covid-19 is going to be as aggressive as possible in order to try to regain trust in the government. 

Today is a good day in terms of turning the page.

Good to see you've stopped believing in the Coup That Was Never Going to Happen.

Given the unique nature of this election, vivid and an unusual degree of partisanship, legal challenges were inevitable - and healthy. Given the manner in which American elections are actually conducted, with hundreds of thousands of dedicated ordinary citizens, it isn't a surprise. But the testing of institutions had to happen. A Good Thing.

[Goose]

Given the unique nature of this election, vivid and an unusual degree of partisanship, legal challenges were inevitable - and healthy. Given the manner in which American elections are actually conducted, with hundreds of thousands of dedicated ordinary citizens, it isn't a surprise. But the testing of institutions had to happen. A Good Thing.

While I am not sure challenges were inevitable, the fact that they were handled professionally where recounts were done and speedily in the courts is a sign of the health of our democracy. That is a good thing. The last thing we needed is any kind of hanging doubts caused by unfounded claims that were never addressed. There will be some people out there who will ignore facts but most people won't. No possible question it was a fair election is worth the effort.

[ATLcardinal]

The legal challenges were only inevitable if Trump lost -- there is no evidence that Biden would have gone down that path if he lost by the same margins as Trump.  And no problem with the legal challenges themselves; as noted they could have provided a basis for closure as Bush, Obama, and Trump-appointed judges uniformly showed they had no merit.  But is the testing of institutions represented by the Rudy Giuliani and Sydney Powell clown-show healthy?  An attack on our institutions in the guise of a legal strategy?  And Trump's attacks on individuals involved with the election infrastructure leading to death threats and police protection requirements for secretary of states and county election supervisors?  Is any of that healthy?  And this has all led Trump to be successful on one front in that the majority of people who voted for him think that the election was  fraudulent and Trump actually won.  I get that many of my friends and colleagues and 74 million Americans think results of the election were a bad outcome.  But how can it be healthy that tens of millions of Americans think the election was rigged and Trump won?

[Genuine Realist]

The legal challenges were only inevitable if Trump lost -- there is no evidence that Biden would have gone down that path if he lost by the same margins as Trump.  And no problem with the legal challenges themselves; as noted they could have provided a basis for closure as Bush, Obama, and Trump-appointed judges uniformly showed they had no merit.  But is the testing of institutions represented by the Rudy Giuliani and Sydney Powell clown-show healthy?  An attack on our institutions in the guise of a legal strategy?  And Trump's attacks on individuals involved with the election infrastructure leading to death threats and police protection requirements for secretary of states and county election supervisors?  Is any of that healthy?  And this has all led Trump to be successful on one front in that the majority of people who voted for him think that the election was  fraudulent and Trump actually won.  I get that many of my friends and colleagues and 74 million Americans think results of the election were a bad outcome.  But how can it be healthy that tens of millions of Americans think the election was rigged and Trump won?

Pretty short memory.

[Goose]

And this has all led Trump to be successful on one front in that the majority of people who voted for him think that the election was  fraudulent and Trump actually won.

And you know this how?? Seriously, I see no probability this statement is true. There are undoubtedly some who do believe it, but until I see something solid in terms of evidence it is a "majority", I am not going to believe it.

I get that many of my friends and colleagues and 74 million Americans think results of the election were a bad outcome.  But how can it be healthy that tens of millions of Americans think the election was rigged and Trump won?

Again, do they? Fact not in evidence. I know quite a few Trump voters, and NONE of them believe he won. They do lament he lost, but they aren't benighted enough to believe he won.

[Genuine Realist]

And this has all led Trump to be successful on one front in that the majority of people who voted for him think that the election was  fraudulent and Trump actually won.

And you know this how?? Seriously, I see no probability this statement is true. There are undoubtedly some who do believe it, but until I see something solid in terms of evidence it is a "majority", I am not going to believe it.

I get that many of my friends and colleagues and 74 million Americans think results of the election were a bad outcome.  But how can it be healthy that tens of millions of Americans think the election was rigged and Trump won?

Again, do they? Fact not in evidence. I know quite a few Trump voters, and NONE of them believe he won. They do lament he lost, but they aren't benighted enough to believe he won.

I continue to believe that most Trump votes were actually anti-Democratic Party votes.

And will continue to be, unless the PArty can somehow return to its Big Tent days.

[dabigv13]

And this has all led Trump to be successful on one front in that the majority of people who voted for him think that the election was  fraudulent and Trump actually won.

And you know this how?? Seriously, I see no probability this statement is true. There are undoubtedly some who do believe it, but until I see something solid in terms of evidence it is a "majority", I am not going to believe it.

I get that many of my friends and colleagues and 74 million Americans think results of the election were a bad outcome.  But how can it be healthy that tens of millions of Americans think the election was rigged and Trump won?

Again, do they? Fact not in evidence. I know quite a few Trump voters, and NONE of them believe he won. They do lament he lost, but they aren't benighted enough to believe he won.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the...might-too/

I trust large public polling over your anecdotal experiences. Many Trump voters believe there was fraud. Millions. Not healthy for our government.

[Goose]

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the...might-too/



I trust large public polling over your anecdotal experiences. Many Trump voters believe there was fraud. Millions. Not healthy for our government.

Was there fraud in the election. I believe there was, but I also believe it was minuscule and not necessarily all pro-Biden. Probably a few people who were not technically eligible to vote did so. No effect on the final results.

The link you cite says little about the election "fraud". It makes an argument that the birther conspiracy hung on, so the election fraud conspiracy will too. Not actually relevant to the state of the election fraud conspiracy at the moment, because the article just assumes it exists. The article does have a link to
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-e...SKBN27Y1AJ
which does talk about the election and how many people are "concerned". I think that link is the poll to which you refer, as I could find no other relevant poll in the 538 article. I am including a quote from that link here:

The Nov. 13-17 opinion poll showed that Trump’s open defiance of Biden’s victory in both the popular vote and Electoral College appears to be affecting the public’s confidence in American democracy, especially among Republicans.
Altogether, 73% of those polled agreed that Biden won the election while 5% thought Trump won. But when asked specifically whether Biden had “rightfully won,” Republicans showed they were suspicious about how Biden’s victory was obtained.
Fifty-two percent of Republicans said that Trump “rightfully won,” while only 29% said that Biden had rightfully won.
Asked why, Republicans were much more concerned than others that state vote counters had tipped the result toward Biden: 68% of Republicans said they were concerned that the election was “rigged,” while only 16% of Democrats and one-third of independents were similarly worried.

Note that the date of this poll was November 13-17. Note also that it says "concerned" that the election was "rigged", not believed or were certain there was fraud. This was while Trump was tweeting there was fraud and that his lawyers were going to prove it. As we all know, that didn't happen. Back then, it could have been true. Being "concerned" wasn't irrational. By now, the idea has been pretty much debunked. I strongly suspect if the poll was current the data would be much different. It is hard to remain "concerned" there was fraud when in no case has it been found. 16% of Democrats and 33% of independents were "concerned" too, so it isn't totally a political preference that drives "concern". Some of those independents were Trump voters. By now, I would bet the 68% is probably down in the 30% region and dropping. Note also that the 68% of Republicans who were concerned is greater than the 52% who at the time said Trump had actually won, so concern != believe.

I am sure there will be a residue of people who believe the election was not on the up and up, just like you occasionally hear somebody say Gore won. However, I don't think it will be many. The recounts and lawsuits being dismissed for lack of any evidence will tend to do that.