RIP - Herman Cain

[terry]

Cain was apparently battling a cancer relapse and had a few other comorbidities. He was not a healthy man. Any disease he contracted could have been fatal.

Did Cain have a recurrence of cancer? I had not heard that. FWIW, the announcement of Cain's death on his website notes his history of cancer, but says "he was basically pretty healthy in recent years."

[oregontim]

I gotta say, it seems entirely natural that we focus on the US response to Covid-19, since we are sitting right here in the USA. And as we focus on US response, it's perfectly logical to compare our results to all those other countries, because the comparisons show what might have been. And criticizing our own country is the logical result. We focus on what went wrong because that's our reality; so much has gone wrong.

IMO it is not because of the nature of our culture, or our people, that we have such terrible results. It's all hypothetical, so I don't claim to know. But what I do believe is that we too, like just about every other nation on the globe, could have had a unified national response if we'd had even halfway decent national leadership. The absurd extremes of tribal division about masks and such are the result of leadership creating absurd extremes, promoting division, giving people license and encouragement to flout recommendations of experts.

Also IMO it's wrong to blame the media for reporting events. In a free society the news media fact check the president. We have every right to blame that subset of media that reports misinformation on purpose. But presidential failures, in our society, are news. Disparity between expert opinion and presidential statements is news. Sure the impact of reporting on Covid-19 is shedding light on failure of leadership; but that's because of the failure of leadership, not the reporting of it. Message and messenger.

[GoodGrief]

It's a big world. The issue isn't binary.

GR (and everyone here), read the Vanity Fair article about Jared Kushner's national testing and tracing plan.

Ugh. That article made me feel even more depressed about our chances 
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/07/...o-thin-air

[chrisk]

The individualistic nature of American culture is at least partially responsible former the failure. And in some countries such as Italy and China they were not reluctant to use the police and military.

[Goose]

The individualistic nature of American culture is at least partially responsible former the failure.  And in some countries such as Italy and China they were not reluctant to use the police and military.

And Spain, and France, and Singapore, and Australia, and Korea. In Korea, many of the contact tracers ARE police. They would have used the police in Germany when/if they felt it was required.

It is undoubtedly true that Americans are more individualistic than most other nations. That said, there are people in all countries that try to "beat" quarantine/shelter in place, or chose to behave like idiots and congregate on beaches to drink, etc. The difference is that in most nations the Local, State, and, if it comes to it, the Federal governments will enforce the law. The public accepts that and actually demands that. It also may be that you will get locked into your neighborhood or your apartment building for two weeks because there is an outbreak. Not fun, but expected.

At one point that was also pretty true in the USA. The public believed that ignoring the law isn't a right, and they expected the law to be enforced. Absolutely you have your rights, but the law was the law. Most people cooperated, and those that didn't were not given a free pass. Today, most of our politicians are unwilling to enforce the law. It may get ugly, and they don't want that. So, they don't make any laws that possibly will be broken, and if by accident they do make such laws, they ignore the violations. As citizens of a democracy, we get the government we deserve.

In San Mateo County, we call people on the phone when they test positive and ask them to isolate. Most say they can't. In Korea, they call you on the phone and tell you to isolate. Most people do, because if you don't, you get arrested, locked up in isolation, and are fined. And they do check. I wonder why they get better compliance?

[chrisk]

In Hong Kong, they put an electronic bracelet on you when you are wusrsnyined.

My brother—in-law was put in a government-provided hotel room for 14 days when he arrived there. They brought food to his room every day along with reading material and a goody bag and made sure he never left the room.

[BostonCard]

Italians are not exactly known for their rule-following



BC

[teejers1]

Also IMO it's wrong to blame the media for reporting events. . . 

So, you think the media is only "reporting events" without any agenda?  Really?

If you believe that, then there is probably no point in further discussion.  But do yourself a favor:  when the next time you read an article about how many high profile individuals test positive for Covid 19, see if the same media "reporting events" talks about whether the people testing positive have symptoms, require hospitalization, or better yet, how those positive test might affect the actual hospital capacity in their community.  You can start with the reports on the Florida Marlins.

And if you don't want to take the suggestion because it's from me, then I commend to you BC's post, where he said positive testing, by itself, isn't particularly newsworthy.  What's newsworthy is positive test rate, hospital capacity, ICU usage, and deaths.

[OutsiderFan]

Also IMO it's wrong to blame the media for reporting events. . . 

So, you think the media is only "reporting events" without any agenda?  Really?

If you believe that, then there is probably no point in further discussion.  But do yourself a favor:  when the next time you read an article about how many high profile individuals test positive for Covid 19, see if the same media "reporting events" talks about whether the people testing positive have symptoms, require hospitalization, or better yet, how those positive test might affect the actual hospital capacity in their community.  You can start with the reports on the Florida Marlins.

And if you don't want to take the suggestion because it's from me, then I commend to you BC's post, where he said positive testing, by itself, isn't particularly newsworthy.  What's newsworthy is positive test rate, hospital capacity, ICU usage, and deaths.  

But whatever, if you

This looks like a solution in search of a problem. 

And, it doesn’t make any sense either. It doesn’t matter how many Marlins are experiencing symptoms or if they end up in hospital per se. what does matter is each person is a possible spread vector for others, and there is no doubt that some people will get quite sick, some will require hospitalization, and some will die, show those players be links in transmission chains.

As far as media having agenda, it’s far more credible to point out specific reporting and call out the problem you see with the reporting - unless the source is a documented purveyor of news produced with low or no standards of professional journalism - than it is to use a catch all phrase like “the media” to besmirch reporting. Sure there may be advocacy journalism. Sure there may be lazy reporting. Sure there may be reporting that hammers on the same thing, but there is a difference between being biased and telling the truth.

I hate the Dodgers, but if there is a call made against them that replay shows should be overturned, I’m not going to deny this. So I can be very biased against something, but still take no exception to the truth. Journalism is designed to illicit questions and find truth. It may not be perfect, but if it leads in the direction of truth, it is doing its job.

[Goose]

Italians are not exactly known for their rule-following



BC

No, they are  not. The Italian public knows this, and their elected officials know this. They go on TV to warn the populace. If that doesn't work, they send for the Carabinieri. That works.

[dabigv13]

I have family in Milan and Sicily, incidentally including former carabinieri and a former mayor of his small Sicilian town. They obeyed curfews because they knew how many people this was killing. Not because they were afraid of getting arrested. The nation, opposition right wing populist parties included (though Salvini etc al have changed tune recently), unified around defeating the virus once it became clear how serious it was.

That never happened in the US and that's why we're fucked right now. Not because state and local govts weren't set up well to track and trace and isolate the most lethal and contagious respiratory pandemic in a century, one that spreads asymptomatically and presymptomatically, something public health departments have never seen before.

Our chance to try and contain this was by unifying against the virus as the common enemy as a nation. Most national leaders, after realizing the severity of this, pursued this approach. Trump, and Bolsonaro, did not.

[lex24]

Also IMO it's wrong to blame the media for reporting events. . . 

So, you think the media is only "reporting events" without any agenda?  Really?

If you believe that, then there is probably no point in further discussion.  But do yourself a favor:  when the next time you read an article about how many high profile individuals test positive for Covid 19, see if the same media "reporting events" talks about whether the people testing positive have symptoms, require hospitalization, or better yet, how those positive test might affect the actual hospital capacity in their community.  You can start with the reports on the Florida Marlins.

And if you don't want to take the suggestion because it's from me, then I commend to you BC's post, where he said positive testing, by itself, isn't particularly newsworthy.  What's newsworthy is positive test rate, hospital capacity, ICU usage, and deaths.  

But whatever, if you

This looks like a solution in search of a problem. 



And, it doesn’t make any sense either. It doesn’t matter how many Marlins are experiencing symptoms or if they end up in hospital per se. what does matter is each person is a possible spread vector for others, and there is no doubt that some people will get quite sick, some will require hospitalization, and some will die, show those players be links in transmission chains.

As far as media having agenda, it’s far more credible to point out specific reporting and call out the problem you see with the reporting - unless the source is a documented purveyor of news produced with low or no standards of professional journalism - than it is to use a catch all phrase like “the media” to besmirch reporting. Sure there may be advocacy journalism. Sure there may be lazy reporting. Sure there may be reporting that hammers on the same thing, but there is a difference between being biased and telling the truth.

I hate the Dodgers, but if there is a call made against them that replay shows should be overturned, I’m not going to deny this. So I can be very biased against something, but still take no exception to the truth. Journalism is designed to illicit questions and find truth. It may not be perfect, but if it leads in the direction of truth, it is doing its job.

Name me a major news outlet that DOESNT have an agenda. Here’s the resignation letter from the second NYT editor to resign in the last two months. https://www.bariweiss.com/resignation-letter

The first resigned after running a Tom Cotton opinion piece. The NYT is the most influential news outlet in the US.

[OutsiderFan]

Also IMO it's wrong to blame the media for reporting events. . . 

So, you think the media is only "reporting events" without any agenda?  Really?

If you believe that, then there is probably no point in further discussion.  But do yourself a favor:  when the next time you read an article about how many high profile individuals test positive for Covid 19, see if the same media "reporting events" talks about whether the people testing positive have symptoms, require hospitalization, or better yet, how those positive test might affect the actual hospital capacity in their community.  You can start with the reports on the Florida Marlins.

And if you don't want to take the suggestion because it's from me, then I commend to you BC's post, where he said positive testing, by itself, isn't particularly newsworthy.  What's newsworthy is positive test rate, hospital capacity, ICU usage, and deaths.  

But whatever, if you

This looks like a solution in search of a problem. 

And, it doesn’t make any sense either. It doesn’t matter how many Marlins are experiencing symptoms or if they end up in hospital per se. what does matter is each person is a possible spread vector for others, and there is no doubt that some people will get quite sick, some will require hospitalization, and some will die, show those players be links in transmission chains.

As far as media having agenda, it’s far more credible to point out specific reporting and call out the problem you see with the reporting - unless the source is a documented purveyor of news produced with low or no standards of professional journalism - than it is to use a catch all phrase like “the media” to besmirch reporting. Sure there may be advocacy journalism. Sure there may be lazy reporting. Sure there may be reporting that hammers on the same thing, but there is a difference between being biased and telling the truth.

I hate the Dodgers, but if there is a call made against them that replay shows should be overturned, I’m not going to deny this. So I can be very biased against something, but still take no exception to the truth. Journalism is designed to illicit questions and find truth. It may not be perfect, but if it leads in the direction of truth, it is doing its job.

Name me a major news outlet that DOESNT have an agenda.

Everyone has an agenda. The point: Let's not equate having an agenda with inability to report truth. Those are two different things that get conflated. The Wall Street Journal does some fantastic reporting, but its editorial page views things through a certain ideological prism. So maybe it has an agenda, but that doesn't stop it from reporting truth.

In fact, this week, Wall Street Journal reporters made a demand that the publication much more clearly indicate what is reporting and what is opinion. Hat tip to them. I wish TV news would label opinion and news reporting as well.

[teejers1]

Also IMO it's wrong to blame the media for reporting events. . . 

So, you think the media is only "reporting events" without any agenda?  Really?

If you believe that, then there is probably no point in further discussion.  But do yourself a favor:  when the next time you read an article about how many high profile individuals test positive for Covid 19, see if the same media "reporting events" talks about whether the people testing positive have symptoms, require hospitalization, or better yet, how those positive test might affect the actual hospital capacity in their community.  You can start with the reports on the Florida Marlins.

And if you don't want to take the suggestion because it's from me, then I commend to you BC's post, where he said positive testing, by itself, isn't particularly newsworthy.  What's newsworthy is positive test rate, hospital capacity, ICU usage, and deaths.  

But whatever, if you

This looks like a solution in search of a problem. 

And, it doesn’t make any sense either. It doesn’t matter how many Marlins are experiencing symptoms or if they end up in hospital per se. what does matter is each person is a possible spread vector for others, and there is no doubt that some people will get quite sick, some will require hospitalization, and some will die, show those players be links in transmission chains.

That is true for every single working person who contracts the virus.  I would bet good money that some employees at the local Costco have acquired the virus (from whatever activity) in the past several months.  But Costco doesn't shut down.  The person (I presume) is sent home from work and asked not to return until X days and Y negative test(s).  Maybe there is some protocol for any company that reaches X% of infected employee base to shut down that operation (like the meat packing facility).  That makes some sense and could be applied to MLB as well.  .

The point is that MLB could send the players home and send up replacements to play in the next game.  If the nature of the player interaction is that you must wait an incubation period for everyone "to clear" so to speak, then you could do that, too.  Great way for players to conform; great way for younger players to get up to the Bigs.

The fundamental point is that everything is a policy decision.  

P.S.  That NYT resignation letter was pretty damning . . . but not surprising . . . unfortunately.  (I actually think the comment about conformity from journalists just happy to have a job at prestigious place in a shrinking market is the most telling).

[lex24]

Also IMO it's wrong to blame the media for reporting events. . . 

So, you think the media is only "reporting events" without any agenda?  Really?

If you believe that, then there is probably no point in further discussion.  But do yourself a favor:  when the next time you read an article about how many high profile individuals test positive for Covid 19, see if the same media "reporting events" talks about whether the people testing positive have symptoms, require hospitalization, or better yet, how those positive test might affect the actual hospital capacity in their community.  You can start with the reports on the Florida Marlins.

And if you don't want to take the suggestion because it's from me, then I commend to you BC's post, where he said positive testing, by itself, isn't particularly newsworthy.  What's newsworthy is positive test rate, hospital capacity, ICU usage, and deaths.  

But whatever, if you

This looks like a solution in search of a problem. 

And, it doesn’t make any sense either. It doesn’t matter how many Marlins are experiencing symptoms or if they end up in hospital per se. what does matter is each person is a possible spread vector for others, and there is no doubt that some people will get quite sick, some will require hospitalization, and some will die, show those players be links in transmission chains.

As far as media having agenda, it’s far more credible to point out specific reporting and call out the problem you see with the reporting - unless the source is a documented purveyor of news produced with low or no standards of professional journalism - than it is to use a catch all phrase like “the media” to besmirch reporting. Sure there may be advocacy journalism. Sure there may be lazy reporting. Sure there may be reporting that hammers on the same thing, but there is a difference between being biased and telling the truth.

I hate the Dodgers, but if there is a call made against them that replay shows should be overturned, I’m not going to deny this. So I can be very biased against something, but still take no exception to the truth. Journalism is designed to illicit questions and find truth. It may not be perfect, but if it leads in the direction of truth, it is doing its job.

Name me a major news outlet that DOESNT have an agenda.

Everyone has an agenda. The point: Let's not equate having an agenda with inability to report truth. Those are two different things that get conflated. The Wall Street Journal does some fantastic reporting, but its editorial page views things through a certain ideological prism. So maybe it has an agenda, but that doesn't stop it from reporting truth.

In fact, this week, Wall Street Journal reporters made a demand that the publication much more clearly indicate what is reporting and what is opinion. Hat tip to them. I wish TV news would label opinion and news reporting as well.

“Truth” is oftentimes subjective. Ones version of “truth” being impacted by ones own bias.  It’s not up to journalism to tell us what is “truth” .  Reports the facts - who, what, when, where, why. The why often being more subjective.  Also, of course, what the NYT (or any other outlet) decides is “ fit to print” is crucial.

Bias is often subtle. But it’s fairly constant. Let me give you an example. A couple years ago the East Bay Newspaper group ran an article about California’s consideration of a single payer state run health care system. It was a good article.  Informative. Well written. They quoted several people, including two from health care advocacy foundations. One was referred to as being with the “conservative (can’t remember the actual foundation) think tank...”.  He was against a single payer system.  There was no ideological position attributed to the person that was pro single payer.  

I called the two reporters. Left voicemails. Pointed out the discrepancy. I looked at both foundation websites. They were correct, the one guy was with a conservative group.  So I told them I had  no quarrel with that being pointed out. The issue was the other person quoted was obviously with a progressive think tank. It was clear from their site.  By labeling one ideologically but not the other, the reader is more likely to infer that the comment from the ideologically labeled speaker is biased. While the other is not.   When in point of fact, BOTH have their bias. 
I can guarantee you the reporters favored the single payer option. 

To their credit, both Reporters called me.  We had a very nice conversation.

[oregontim]

Bingo! Thanks OF, that's a great way to make that point. That goes right to the heart of what journalists are taught, the core culture. Every reporter is human and has opinions, but real journalists distinguish between fact and opinion, and strive to keep the reporting clean of opinion. Their owners and institutions have the editorial pages to express opinion, which they do. Yes, editing selects which stories to put where and how much space to devote to which stories ... but editors in serious publications are also schooled in the culture. They do equate professionalism with separating fact from opinion, and reporting fact.



It is true that the culture of journalism celebrates exposing lies and misdeeds of people in power. That's been in its blood for centuries, and nobody seriously complains that Woodward and Bernstein had an agenda when they quoted deep throat about Nixon. That's what journalists are supposed to do. That's why we've all grown up with the idea that the free press is fundamental to a working democracy.



Meanwhile, the facts are biased against Trump; the mere fact of reporting his statements, his speeches, and his actions can look like bias because power grab, swamp, checks and balances, bigotry, lies, "alternative facts" and so on. People susceptible to his state propaganda are calling the truth bias as he, from the bully pulpit, disdains the truth and scorns reporters. We've all seen his campaign against the press in speeches, rallies, and press conferences. Name calling, insults, orders of magnitude different from anything that came before. We've been crippled as a nation by the confluence of a terrible worldwide pandemic during a full-blown war against reporting facts. And meanwhile, using social media, competing nations throw fuel on the fire by spending millions to spread propaganda and lies over social media, in which paid opinion is easily disguised as real opinion.



And this power play has had terrible impact related to Covid-19 and our nation's failed response. I've defended the press in several posts on this board because the war against the press has had a directly negative impact on our national response and national will to unite to fight this pandemic. It's not just an outside-of-covid issue. I'm a baby boomer, I was in college when we as a generation took aim on the Vietnam War and segregation. During all of that, on both sides of the issues, we had the common ground of facts as reported by the media. Now, these days, with the pandemic, we don't have common ground as much as we should. That's why I really hate the war on the free press, the opinions that fall into step with that, and the talking points like the so-called "agenda" that casts doubts on legitimate reporting of facts. Because it's killed like 150K of us so far, and we have a lot more deaths coming. And the lack of facts is a serious factor.



Please, don't fall for that.

I hate the Dodgers, but if there is a call made against them that replay shows should be overturned, I’m not going to deny this. So I can be very biased against something, but still take no exception to the truth. Journalism is designed to illicit questions and find truth. It may not be perfect, but if it leads in the direction of truth, it is doing its job.

[Goose]

I have family in Milan and Sicily, incidentally including former carabinieri and a former mayor of his small Sicilian town. They obeyed curfews because they knew how many people this was killing. Not because they were afraid of getting arrested. The nation, opposition right wing populist parties included (though Salvini etc al have changed tune recently), unified around defeating the virus once it became clear how serious it was.

I do not disagree with the statement that the vast majority of Italians behaved responsibly. However, clearly, some did not. Otherwise it would not have been necessary to enforce the lockdown with vigor in many cases. It still is, e.g. the carabinieri surrounding an apartment building for two weeks to prevent the people from going to work. Note that I am not intending this as a criticism of the Italian people or government. There are a few idiots everywhere, but in Italy they weren't allowed to ruin it for everybody. That is a good thing, not a bad thing. You are right that the people of Italy rallied together especially after they saw what happened in Lombardy. They were plain scared, with good reason.

That never happened in the US and that's why we're fucked right now. Not because state and local govts weren't set up well to track and trace and isolate the most lethal and contagious respiratory pandemic in a century, one that spreads asymptomatically and presymptomatically, something public health departments have never seen before.



Our chance to try and contain this was by unifying against the virus as the common enemy as a nation. Most national leaders, after realizing the severity of this, pursued this approach. Trump, and Bolsonaro, did not.

I can't totally agree Dabigv13. It is certainly true that Trump has made things much worse by his constant attempts to play down the seriousness of this epidemic. However, that didn't force the Governor of Florida to be an idiot too. He did that of his own free will. Newsom opened California too soon, and he did that fully aware of what the situation was in LA County. That isn't Trumps fault. It isn't Trumps fault the Governor of Georgia tried to keep the Mayor of Atlanta from requiring masks. The Governor is just an idiot, IMHO.
The people of the USA could have united against this virus, and should have done so, despite Trump. There would have been people who would have behaved irresponsibly. Those people needed to be forced to conform. The minute it became clear that wasn't going to happen, either because the Governor of the State didn't think it necessary, or didn't think it possible, many Americans decided that it wasn't serious. Packed beaches in Southern California send a message that we don't need to be scared. Enough people quit being scared. That is why we are in deep yogurt, IMHO.

I never expected our State and County health departments to track and trace this virus out of existence when the epidemic started. They were vestigial at that point, as Fauci said. In fact, I argued long and hard that we couldn't do what Korea etc. did because we weren't ready. That was in March. However, the SIP existed to get the case counts down so that track and trace coupled with reasonable compliance would get us back up and running. Better compliance would have been nice, but if the State and County let people violate the SIP at will, reasonable compliance is the best you can hope for.
That is what we were told. I fully appreciate this virus is "difficult". However, we were supposed to be generating a track and trace capability in our State and Counties to allow us to contain the disease. If the case load was too high for them to track and trace it, the State and County public health folks should have spoken up and told Newsom (and everybody else) "Don't you dare" when he decided to start opening up. Did you hear that they did? By then, they fully knew they were expected "to track and trace and isolate the most lethal and contagious respiratory pandemic in a century, one that spreads asymptomatically and presymptomatically, something public health departments have never seen before". Over those 5 months, they had seen it plenty. Germany has managed to contain it. So have several other EU countries, at least for now. So yes, I do have a problem with our response that extends beyond Trump and beyond the idiot Governors who have failed their people.

[M T]

Newsom opened California too soon, and he did that fully aware of what the situation was in LA County.

I will add that the Santa Clara County opened up further (July 2nd order, effective July 13, and mostly overridden as of July 15) as it knew cases were growing exponentially.  

As you may remember, California went into Stage 2 in May and said that counties that wanted to open up further & sooner within Stage 2, needed to apply for a variance.  Most counties bowed to the almighty dollar and said what they needed to say to get things open (I earlier chronicled what O.C. did).  Santa Clara County did not choose to ask for a variance (which by the way, was explicitly allowed for under the Stage 2 roadmap).

But then California never progressed further in Stage 2, so Santa Clara was forced to ask for a variance on July 6.  In order to apply, the public health officer needed the a letter support supporting the application signed by the County Commissioners.  In politics, when you need someone's support, it usually comes with a price tag. I suspect there was some influence being forced to open things up beyond what was safe.  Hence, with increasing case counts locally and statewide, the Public Health Officer put out an order that opened up the county further.

As required for the variance, the letter of support by the SCC Commissioners is dated July 2, the same day as the order opening things up was announced.

[Goose]

It would appear being stupid isn't confined to the USA
https://www.yahoo.com/news/thousands-mar...48037.html
Fortunately I don't think this is going to change anything.

[BostonCard]

Evidently a bunch of Americans moved into Germany:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/...test-video

Up to 17,000 people, including libertarians and anti-vaccination activists, have marched in Berlin to protest against Germany's coronavirus regulations. Many flouted guidance on wearing masks and physical distancing as they accused the government of 'stealing our freedom'.

I don't think we are as exceptional as we think we are.  Leadership matters, and if you have the federal, regional, and local governments all sending the same message, the people are more likely to follow, at least until you get to a situation when you are reporting a 7-day moving average of 4 deaths a day (as Germany is), instead of urging followers to "liberate" their state by protesting shelter in place orders at the height of the pandemic.

But as I've mentioned before, the virus is capricious, and no sooner do you think that you have it figured out than infections come back with a vengence.

BC