in Utah

[magnus]

Police department and Mayor do not plan to enforce the El Paso shutdown. 

https://kvia.com/coronavirus/2020/10/30/...onference/

Precarious.

[2006alum]

Per thread header, "Toto, we're not in Utah anymore!"

[magnus]

Per thread header, "Toto, we're not in Utah anymore!"

threads are meant to be split. =)

[magnus]

More Utah^H^H^H^H El Paso news. 

Texas judge rules in favor of El Paso shutdown.  Police to begin enforcing. 

https://amp.elpasotimes.com/amp/6188795002

The judge acknowledges that there will likely be appeals.

[BostonCard]

Texas had 9,239 new cases and 124 new deaths today.  We are quickly approaching the peak that Texas experienced in mid-July.\
Utah's "second wave" is much worse than it was in the summer.  There were nearly 3000 new cases, and 17 deaths (the average during the summer peak was 600 cases and 5 deaths).

The numbers in the swing states that went from Trump to Biden (Arizona (likely), Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania (almost certainly) and Georgia (likely)) are up significantly.  If some of those states wind up within a 1% margin, you have to wonder if a worsening pandemic made a difference.

BC

[Mick]

Texas had 9,239 new cases and 124 new deaths today.  We are quickly approaching the peak that Texas experienced in mid-July.\
Utah's "second wave" is much worse than it was in the summer.  There were nearly 3000 new cases, and 17 deaths (the average during the summer peak was 600 cases and 5 deaths).

The numbers in the swing states that went from Trump to Biden (Arizona (likely), Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania (almost certainly) and Georgia (likely)) are up significantly.  If some of those states wind up within a 1% margin, you have to wonder if a worsening pandemic made a difference.

BC

I think the worsening pandemic made a vast difference, between the economic meltdown caused by COVID and the deaths and illnesses created by COVID.  The American economy was roaring pre-pandemic and while Trump is personally disliked by most Americans, the vast majority of Americans who live paycheck to paycheck really like it when the paycheck arrives and even better when there's a little more in it.  That all changed, dramatically in March.  Trump should have been absolutely slaughtered at the ballot box.  I think most people realize that Trump is a lying huckster of an annoying NYC real estate billionaire, but they'll never meet him.  The economy was working well for them and it has started to recover well, though there are still nearly 22m people getting a government check.  By rights, Biden should have had 400+ electoral votes.  It should have been a Reagan/Mondale-style obliteration.  Instead, Trump nearly won.

Says a lot about what everyday Americans think of President Harris Biden (for now). And it will be great for the two of them. Like Obama, they can spend their entire first term (and half of his second term) blaming literally everything that goes wrong on the previous Republican president, and the Elites will parrot that line of thinking. Worked out perfectly for them

[DenverCard]

Mick,

I've been struggling to understand how democrats are rejected by Trumpers both because they are the party of elites and because they're socialists.  In fact, it's the party that supports raising minimum wage, less regressive taxation, enhancing opportunities for those historically disadvantaged, and providing universal health care.  In other words, the party that wants to use power for the benefit of a broad coalition.  And to save us individuals from a terrible pandemic (to keep this posting very tenuously on topic).  Would it really be so terrible if the country were more egalitarian, like those of northern Europe?

Meanwhile, a silver spoon-fed real estate developer supported by billionaire-run Fox News, and multi-millionare on-screen "talents, along the most exploitative ilk you can find (Koch brothers, et. al -- see link) is the party of the common man?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michelatind...cbb9f97989

Endless projection and distortion of what democrats stand for.  Elitism driving the party of Biden/Harris?  Please.

Oh, and we get it that you expect Biden to die soon -- you mention it in just about every one of your posts.

[chrisk]

Texas had 9,239 new cases and 124 new deaths today.  We are quickly approaching the peak that Texas experienced in mid-July.\
Utah's "second wave" is much worse than it was in the summer.  There were nearly 3000 new cases, and 17 deaths (the average during the summer peak was 600 cases and 5 deaths).

The numbers in the swing states that went from Trump to Biden (Arizona (likely), Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania (almost certainly) and Georgia (likely)) are up significantly.  If some of those states wind up within a 1% margin, you have to wonder if a worsening pandemic made a difference.

BC

I think the worsening pandemic made a vast difference, between the economic meltdown caused by COVID and the deaths and illnesses created by COVID.  The American economy was roaring pre-pandemic and while Trump is personally disliked by most Americans, the vast majority of Americans who live paycheck to paycheck really like it when the paycheck arrives and even better when there's a little more in it.  That all changed, dramatically in March.  Trump should have been absolutely slaughtered at the ballot box.  I think most people realize that Trump is a lying huckster of an annoying NYC real estate billionaire, but they'll never meet him.  The economy was working well for them and it has started to recover well, though there are still nearly 22m people getting a government check.  By rights, Biden should have had 400+ electoral votes.  It should have been a Reagan/Mondale-style obliteration.  Instead, Trump nearly won.

Says a lot about what everyday Americans think of President Harris Biden (for now).  And it will be great for the two of them.  Like Obama, they can spend their entire first term (and half of his second term) blaming literally everything that goes wrong on the previous Republican president, and the Elites will parrot that line of thinking.  Worked out perfectly for them

The number of people who were persuadable in this election was small. The big variable was turnout and it turned out each party did about the same in getting out the vote. In some ways, that is more impressive for the Republicans since they start from a lower base and they also turn out in a higher percentage already.

[lex24]

Mick,

I've been struggling to understand how democrats are rejected by Trumpers both because they are the party of elites and because they're socialists.  In fact, it's the party that supports raising minimum wage, less regressive taxation, enhancing opportunities for those historically disadvantaged, and providing universal health care.  In other words, the party that wants to use power for the benefit of a broad coalition.  And to save us individuals from a terrible pandemic (to keep this posting very tenuously on topic).  Would it really be so terrible if the country were more egalitarian, like those of northern Europe?

Meanwhile, a silver spoon-fed real estate developer supported by billionaire-run Fox News, and multi-millionare on-screen "talents, along the most exploitative ilk you can find (Koch brothers, et. al -- see link) is the party of the common man?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michelatind...cbb9f97989

Endless projection and distortion of what democrats stand for.  Elitism driving the party of Biden/Harris?  Please.

Oh, and we get it that you expect Biden to die soon -- you mention it in just about every one of your posts.

This election to me showed that we remain a middle slight left, middle slight right country.  Moderates prevailed in this election.  Which I think is a good thing.  Even in Calif, the Propositions trended toward moderates.  

As for socialism etc - take it from Congresswoman Spanberger (D.Va) Her comments - “we have to commit to not use the word “socialist” or “socialism” ever again.  If we are classifying Tuesday as a success we will get f——g torn apart in 2022.”

We aren’t Denmark and we never will be.  You simply can’t compare the US to Northern European countries - all of which are small, homogeneous etc.


In the end, for me, this election looks about perfect.  Biden wins and the GOP holds the Senate. (I don’t want either party right now to control Congress and the WH) Pending Georgia runoffs (and my goodness, how much money will go to those races!)

Biden talks about bring a uniter. I believe he wants to be. I believe that is who he is. But he will have to hold off his party’s left. And try to work a bit with McConnell. Difficult tasks to say the least. But I try to be optimistic.

[Mick]

Mick, I've been struggling to understand how democrats are rejected by Trumpers both because they are the party of elites and because they're socialists.  In fact, it's the party that supports raising minimum wage, less regressive taxation, enhancing opportunities for those historically disadvantaged, and providing universal health care.  In other words, the party that wants to use power for the benefit of a broad coalition.  And to save us individuals from a terrible pandemic (to keep this posting very tenuously on topic).  Would it really be so terrible if the country were more egalitarian, like those of northern Europe?

Not so hard to understand. The Democratic party has always liked employment, but hated employers; preferred high taxes and onerous regulation; supported opportunities for those historically disadvantaged at the expense of those historically advantaged; affirmative action; and felt that universal health care was preferable to private health insurance, even if you got to keep your doctor and insurance -- sorry, that was a misteak.  I read that somewhere.  And I seem to recall Obama's MIT adviser stating that the people had to be fooled to put this in place.  I must have that wrong too.  Seems to me that Jonathan Gruber referred to "the stupidity of the American voter." And I think if most Americans wanted to ape the sclerotic economies of Europe, they'd move there.  So...yeah.  It would be really terrible if the USA were more like ... well, any European country.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapotheca...33a6177c05

Meanwhile, a silver spoon-fed real estate developer supported by billionaire-run Fox News, and multi-millionare on-screen "talents, along the most exploitative ilk you can find (Koch brothers, et. al -- see link) is the party of the common man?

The Republicans are the party of the common man only to the point that the Repubs support military service, patriotism, citizens, faith, 1A, 2A, et al. And I agree, Republicans are not great fans of vandalism, property destruction, drug legalization, arson and the like. I realize that Democrats prefer abortion-on-demand, atheism, immigrants over citizens, fascist tendencies, socialist tendencies, recreational drugs and so forth.  So...agreed, it is strange that Trump understands the large group of common people that the Democrats have kicked to the curb.  I marvelled at both Hillary's lack of understanding and...well, just about any Democrat's lack of understanding as to how they offended their historic constituencies.

Elitism driving the party of Biden/Harris?  Please.

You're kidding, right?  The legion of Elites back the Democrats.  Wall Street Elites.  Lawyer Elites.  Hollywood Elites.  I'll see your Koch and raise you a Soros.  California and New York, the Liberal Elite poles back the party of Biden/Harris.  Your man Biden is worth $9 million with multiple homes.  Not bad for a career civil servant.  And while we're on it, The Clintons, the Obamas, the Kennedys, hell, even the Lyndon Johnsons were crazy rich, or became that way.  The Athletic Elite.  The Media Elite.  Even the Republican Elite back the Democrats.  The party of Biden/Harris is the party that sucks at the Elite teat.

Oh, and we get it that you expect Biden to die soon -- you mention it in just about every one of your posts.

I don't expect him to die soon, although at 77 he has already outlived the average male life expectancy of 76.4.  I don't know whether you're mocking the point or disagreeing with it, or both.  More to the point, I expect Biden to do a poor job carrying out the requirements of the office.  Or get impeached.

Speaking as a registered independent who has both voted for Obama and his opponent one time each, I really hope he is best for the country.  I don't care, at all, about the Dow.  I just want to see unemployment across all races and genders to be as low as they were under Trump.  Same with the record number of business starts and entrepreneurs, across all races and genders and the labor force participation.  Democrats always claim that their economic approach is superior.  Also, more Arab countries recognizing Israel.  Can't wait to see this happen.  Really looking forward to Universal Health Care that actually saves me money and allows me to keep my doctor and coverages.  And, I fully expect my taxes not to go up.  And I'd better get to enjoy Social Security in the same way that my parents and grandparents did.  That was the Democratic promise, their word was their bond.  So I won't be paying in any more, and I'll get at least as much out of that great Democratic program.  Just making sure you're guaranteeing me all of this.

[BostonCard]

This election to me showed that we remain a middle slight left, middle slight right country.  Moderates prevailed in this election.  Which I think is a good thing.  Even in Calif, the Propositions trended toward moderates.  

This is a very good point, and probably suggests that being on "team blue" or "team red" is as much a cultural issue as a political issue.  So, while California went overwhelmingly for Biden, it shot down affirmative action, any sort of changes on prop 13, and voted for allowing gig workers to remain contractors.  If you look at just the propositions, you might have thought that California is a conservative state.  On the other hand, Florida, which went for Trump, voted for a $15 minimum wage, Mississippi, for goodness sake, approved a medical marijuana bill, and recreational marijuana was approved in Montana and South Dakota, all states that voted for Trump.

Democrats lament that their policies are broadly popular with most Americans, even in red states, but that they can't seem to win there.  I hate the term "liberal elites" but there is certainly a bit of arrogance that comes with the belief that people will magically vote for you just because your policies are more popular.  Americans time and again say that they don't believe that their politicians listen to their concerns, and Donald Trump's success in channeling that should not be disregarded, and it certainly shouldn't be dismissed as racism.  You want to win a lot of these places that you've struggled in before?  Earn their votes.

BC

[DenverCard]

Mick,

I've been struggling to understand how democrats are rejected by Trumpers both because they are the party of elites and because they're socialists.  In fact, it's the party that supports raising minimum wage, less regressive taxation, enhancing opportunities for those historically disadvantaged, and providing universal health care.  In other words, the party that wants to use power for the benefit of a broad coalition.  And to save us individuals from a terrible pandemic (to keep this posting very tenuously on topic).  Would it really be so terrible if the country were more egalitarian, like those of northern Europe?

Meanwhile, a silver spoon-fed real estate developer supported by billionaire-run Fox News, and multi-millionare on-screen "talents, along the most exploitative ilk you can find (Koch brothers, et. al -- see link) is the party of the common man?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michelatind...cbb9f97989

Endless projection and distortion of what democrats stand for.  Elitism driving the party of Biden/Harris?  Please.

Oh, and we get it that you expect Biden to die soon -- you mention it in just about every one of your posts.

This election to me showed that we remain a middle slight left, middle slight right country.  Moderates prevailed in this election.  Which I think is a good thing.  Even in Calif, the Propositions trended toward moderates.  

As for socialism etc - take it from Congresswoman Spanberger (D.Va) Her comments - “we have to commit to not use the word “socialist” or “socialism” ever again.  If we are classifying Tuesday as a success we will get f——g torn apart in 2022.”

We aren’t Denmark and we never will be.  You simply can’t compare the US to Northern European countries - all of which are small, homogeneous etc.


In the end, for me, this election looks about perfect.  Biden wins and the GOP holds the Senate. (I don’t want either party right now to control Congress and the WH) Pending Georgia runoffs (and my goodness, how much money will go to those races!)

Biden talks about bring a uniter.  I believe he wants to be.  I believe that is who he is.  But he will  have to hold off his party’s left.  And try to work a bit with McConnell.  Difficult tasks to say the least.  But I try to be optimistic.

Mick,

As I was feeling guilty about violating the Terry Rule in my previous post, I don't intent to respond in detail to your post.  I just want to say that whereas a few of your characterizations of the beliefs of the typical Democrat in my orbit capture the ways in which their values differ from what I ascribe to the typical Republican, such as concerns about the income that those running corporations make relative to the lower-level employees (hence the reason that we lionize Ben and Jerry of Ben & Jerry's), most of your stereotypes are either entirely foreign or obnoxious caricatures.  Immigrants over citizens?  Fascist tendencies?  Now I must admit that for some unknown reason, the folks in my East Denver neighborhood are way into vandalism and arson, so I guess you hit upon something there.

Your definition of elitism is so broad that it seems to include anyone who is successful in their field, financially or otherwise.  If you read the Atlantic -- and thereby seek to educate yourself -- you're elite?  And is that something to which a person should not aspire, and want have as part of his "team"?  I hope you aren't advocating the the Q-Anon adherents in the country be put in positions of leadership, like the recently elected representatives from Georgia and my state of Colorado.  If it is elitism to think such individuals are misguided and dangerous, well, thank God for elitism.

In my way of thinking, to paraphrase Forrest Gump, elitism is what elitism does.  If you really care about everyone in society, and are willing to make personal sacrifices to help those in greater need, you don't suffer from elitism, because you see that success always, to greater or lesser degrees, a matter of good fortune.  And if you profess to care, but instead exploit others, it means you feel you are superior to them, and thereby practicing elitism.  In my view, Trump, Trump's family, and the members of Trump's Cabinet claim to care about the coal miners, factory workers, and other constituents who have fallen behind during the last generation, but that in fact they really do not.  In contrast, the folks in my neighborhood who vote against their personal financial interests in the hopes of others, do care.

Administrators -- I've said my piece on this.  Future postings to be confined to Covid or Stanford sports.

[BostonCard]

Now that the election has been called, I hope we can get back to the regularly scheduled COVID-19 programming.  The election was a momentous event, so I get the desire to talk about it (which I have indulged in as well), but I hope we can get passed that.

I'm not going to lock the thread, but I hope we can refrain ourselves (myself included) in further political discussions that are divorced from the COVID-19 pandemic.

BC

[dabigv13]

Amen.

[Mick]

As I was feeling guilty about violating the Terry Rule in my previous post, I don't intent to respond in detail to your post. 

I definitely didn't expect you to respond to the details in my post.

I wish the best to Biden and Harris, and really hope they're successful.  And genuinely hope the Democrats learn from the last two presidential elections.

Like everyone else, I'm done with politics on this board, although I doubt the Trump potshots will cease.

[BostonCard]

Speaking of Utah, the governor has just implemented a state-wide mask mandate.

https://apnews.com/article/gary-herbert-...3b62735680

BC

[Mick]

Mick,

I've been struggling to understand how democrats are rejected by Trumpers both because they are the party of elites and because they're socialists.  In fact, it's the party that supports raising minimum wage, less regressive taxation, enhancing opportunities for those historically disadvantaged, and providing universal health care.  In other words, the party that wants to use power for the benefit of a broad coalition.  And to save us individuals from a terrible pandemic (to keep this posting very tenuously on topic).  Would it really be so terrible if the country were more egalitarian, like those of northern Europe?

Meanwhile, a silver spoon-fed real estate developer supported by billionaire-run Fox News, and multi-millionare on-screen "talents, along the most exploitative ilk you can find (Koch brothers, et. al -- see link) is the party of the common man?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/charles-koc...1605286893

There.  Now we can be friends again...



On the other hands...Peter Thiel.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companie...r-BB1aZfDH

[teejers1]

Mick,

I've been struggling to understand how democrats are rejected by Trumpers both because they are the party of elites and because they're socialists.  In fact, it's the party that supports raising minimum wage, less regressive taxation, enhancing opportunities for those historically disadvantaged, and providing universal health care.  In other words, the party that wants to use power for the benefit of a broad coalition.  And to save us individuals from a terrible pandemic (to keep this posting very tenuously on topic).  Would it really be so terrible if the country were more egalitarian, like those of northern Europe?

Meanwhile, a silver spoon-fed real estate developer supported by billionaire-run Fox News, and multi-millionare on-screen "talents, along the most exploitative ilk you can find (Koch brothers, et. al -- see link) is the party of the common man?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/charles-koc...1605286893

There.  Now we can be friends again...



On the other hands...Peter Thiel.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companie...r-BB1aZfDH

Kinda partial to this one from Doc . . . 

[magnus]

More Utah^H^H^H^H El Paso news. 

Texas judge rules in favor of El Paso shutdown.  Police to begin enforcing. 

https://amp.elpasotimes.com/amp/6188795002

The judge acknowledges that there will likely be appeals.

El Paso is now getting National Guard reinforcement to help with morgue processing. 

This sounds like another Lombardy or NYC waiting to happen except it's getting nowhere near the publicity.   Is it because we're desensitized?  Or because it's not as bad?  Or because it's El Paso and so most people don't care?

[BostonCard]

Note, "full PPE" is standard when you are dealing with dead bodies.

BC