[donkey687]

Not very well if you look at RPI.  https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-basket...ng-by-team

Yale and Harvard are clearly better than Stanford at MBB but according to RPI, Princeton and Brown as well. Non-Ivy Colgate also tops us.

I heard that Muir justifies our struggles in MBB by saying how few recruits we have access to and how MBB lacks the facilities and $ that other programs have.  That argument doesn't hold water if you look at the success of the Ivies in MBB.

[donkey687]

Not very well if you look at RPI.  https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-basket...ng-by-team

Yale and Harvard are clearly better than Stanford at MBB but according to RPI, Princeton and Brown as well. Non-Ivy Colgate also tops us.

I heard that Muir justifies our struggles in MBB by saying how few recruits we have access to and how MBB lacks the facilities and $ that other programs have.  That argument doesn't hold water if you look at the success of the Ivies in MBB.

[Hank 91]

Twenty years ago the conventional wisdom was that men's basketball was a viable sport at Stanford because all you really needed was one or two recruits a year who could get through admissions. It wasn't unreasonable to expect to get Josh Childress one year, Casey Jacobsen another year, and fill in the rest of the slots with capable role players. There would never be a class like the Fab Five or the groups of freshmen Kentucky and Duke pull in now, but it was clear that that formula could sustain the program and occasionally produce elite teams. Extending this wisdom, it was clear that football could never be competitive. In that sport, where so many more bodies were necessary and depth was so much more important, academics would always be the hurdle the football program would never clear.

First Harbaugh and now Shaw have erased any excuses that might be made for the basketball program.

[Hank 91]

Twenty years ago the conventional wisdom was that men's basketball was a viable sport at Stanford because all you really needed was one or two recruits a year who could get through admissions. It wasn't unreasonable to expect to get Josh Childress one year, Casey Jacobsen another year, and fill in the rest of the slots with capable role players. There would never be a class like the Fab Five or the groups of freshmen Kentucky and Duke pull in now, but it was clear that that formula could sustain the program and occasionally produce elite teams. Extending this wisdom, it was clear that football could never be competitive. In that sport, where so many more bodies were necessary and depth was so much more important, academics would always be the hurdle the football program would never clear.

First Harbaugh and now Shaw have erased any excuses that might be made for the basketball program.

[donkey687]

First Harbaugh and now Shaw have erased any excuses that might be made for the basketball program.

Yup, the one and done excuse can't really be made either when you look  at the make-up of the Final Four teams.  Sure, Duke and Kentucky do well each year with a roster of one and dones, but most of the rest of the top 10 teams in the country build a roster without reliance on one and dones.

[donkey687]

First Harbaugh and now Shaw have erased any excuses that might be made for the basketball program.

Yup, the one and done excuse can't really be made either when you look  at the make-up of the Final Four teams.  Sure, Duke and Kentucky do well each year with a roster of one and dones, but most of the rest of the top 10 teams in the country build a roster without reliance on one and dones.

[SamuelMcF]

Yup, the one and done excuse can't really be made either when you look  at the make-up of the Final Four teams.  Sure, Duke and Kentucky do well each year with a roster of one and dones, but most of the rest of the top 10 teams in the country build a roster without reliance on one and dones.

Want to add something to the equation that Stanford basically can't do: transfers. 

Sweet Sixteen teams, # of transfers playing significant time (10+ mpg):
- Duke: 0 (duh)
- Kentucky: 1
- UNC: 1
- FSU: 2
- Gonzaga: 3
- VT: 1
- Purdue: 1
- Tennessee: 0
- Michigan: 1
- Oregon: 2
- LSU: 3
- Houston: 5
- Texas Tech: 4
- UVA: 1
- Michigan State: 0
- Auburn: 3

Average: 1.75 per team!!!

Also of note, Dawkins' team at UCF had 5.

[SamuelMcF]

Yup, the one and done excuse can't really be made either when you look  at the make-up of the Final Four teams.  Sure, Duke and Kentucky do well each year with a roster of one and dones, but most of the rest of the top 10 teams in the country build a roster without reliance on one and dones.

Want to add something to the equation that Stanford basically can't do: transfers. 

Sweet Sixteen teams, # of transfers playing significant time (10+ mpg):
- Duke: 0 (duh)
- Kentucky: 1
- UNC: 1
- FSU: 2
- Gonzaga: 3
- VT: 1
- Purdue: 1
- Tennessee: 0
- Michigan: 1
- Oregon: 2
- LSU: 3
- Houston: 5
- Texas Tech: 4
- UVA: 1
- Michigan State: 0
- Auburn: 3

Average: 1.75 per team!!!

Also of note, Dawkins' team at UCF had 5.

[donkey687]

Yup, the one and done excuse can't really be made either when you look  at the make-up of the Final Four teams.  Sure, Duke and Kentucky do well each year with a roster of one and dones, but most of the rest of the top 10 teams in the country build a roster without reliance on one and dones.

Want to add something to the equation that Stanford basically can't do: transfers. 

Sweet Sixteen teams, # of transfers playing significant time (10+ mpg):
- Duke: 0 (duh)
- Kentucky: 1
- UNC: 1
- FSU: 2
- Gonzaga: 3
- VT: 1
- Purdue: 1
- Tennessee: 0
- Michigan: 1
- Oregon: 2
- LSU: 3
- Houston: 5
- Texas Tech: 4
- UVA: 1
- Michigan State: 0
- Auburn: 3

Average: 1.75 per team!!!

Also of note, Dawkins' team at UCF had 5.

Two points.
1) Kentucky would have had zero if we had a more competitive basketball team and attractive offering for retaining our own player. 
2) We can take transfers but it is a little harder for us.  Can't we poach some from the Ivy league teams that are better than us?

[donkey687]

Yup, the one and done excuse can't really be made either when you look  at the make-up of the Final Four teams.  Sure, Duke and Kentucky do well each year with a roster of one and dones, but most of the rest of the top 10 teams in the country build a roster without reliance on one and dones.

Want to add something to the equation that Stanford basically can't do: transfers. 

Sweet Sixteen teams, # of transfers playing significant time (10+ mpg):
- Duke: 0 (duh)
- Kentucky: 1
- UNC: 1
- FSU: 2
- Gonzaga: 3
- VT: 1
- Purdue: 1
- Tennessee: 0
- Michigan: 1
- Oregon: 2
- LSU: 3
- Houston: 5
- Texas Tech: 4
- UVA: 1
- Michigan State: 0
- Auburn: 3

Average: 1.75 per team!!!

Also of note, Dawkins' team at UCF had 5.

Two points.
1) Kentucky would have had zero if we had a more competitive basketball team and attractive offering for retaining our own player. 
2) We can take transfers but it is a little harder for us.  Can't we poach some from the Ivy league teams that are better than us?

[SamuelMcF]

Two points.
1) Kentucky would have had zero if we had a more competitive basketball team and attractive offering for retaining our own player. 

Most likely true. That would bring the average down from 1.75/team to 1.69/team, still showing that most of the non-blue-bloods (and even some of the blue bloods) are benefitting significantly from transfers.

2) We can take transfers but it is a little harder for us.  Can't we poach some from the Ivy league teams that are better than us?

See your point #1, but in reverse this time...

[SamuelMcF]

Two points.
1) Kentucky would have had zero if we had a more competitive basketball team and attractive offering for retaining our own player. 

Most likely true. That would bring the average down from 1.75/team to 1.69/team, still showing that most of the non-blue-bloods (and even some of the blue bloods) are benefitting significantly from transfers.

2) We can take transfers but it is a little harder for us.  Can't we poach some from the Ivy league teams that are better than us?

See your point #1, but in reverse this time...

[82lsju]

2) We can take transfers but it is a little harder for us.  Can't we poach some from the Ivy league teams that are better than us?

USC basketball adds Columbia transfer guard Quinton Adlesh to its roster

https://www.latimes.com/sports/usc/la-sp...story.html

[82lsju]

2) We can take transfers but it is a little harder for us.  Can't we poach some from the Ivy league teams that are better than us?

USC basketball adds Columbia transfer guard Quinton Adlesh to its roster

https://www.latimes.com/sports/usc/la-sp...story.html

[SamuelMcF]

2) We can take transfers but it is a little harder for us.  Can't we poach some from the Ivy league teams that are better than us?

https://www.latimes.com/sports/usc/la-sp...story.html

Handy list of Ivy transfers this past season (notable destination schools: Baylor, Xavier, Michigan):
https://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/confe.../transfers

Looks like Columbia bleeds transfers.

[SamuelMcF]

2) We can take transfers but it is a little harder for us.  Can't we poach some from the Ivy league teams that are better than us?

https://www.latimes.com/sports/usc/la-sp...story.html

Handy list of Ivy transfers this past season (notable destination schools: Baylor, Xavier, Michigan):
https://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/confe.../transfers

Looks like Columbia bleeds transfers.

[JohnR34231]

Not very well if you look at RPI.  https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-basket...ng-by-team

Yale and Harvard are clearly better than Stanford at MBB but according to RPI, Princeton and Brown as well. Non-Ivy Colgate also tops us.

I heard that Muir justifies our struggles in MBB by saying how few recruits we have access to and how MBB lacks the facilities and $ that other programs have.  That argument doesn't hold water if you look at the success of the Ivies in MBB.

It would be interesting to know what academic requirements the Ivies hold basketball recruits to. About the same, harder, or easier than Stanford?

[JohnR34231]

Not very well if you look at RPI.  https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-basket...ng-by-team

Yale and Harvard are clearly better than Stanford at MBB but according to RPI, Princeton and Brown as well. Non-Ivy Colgate also tops us.

I heard that Muir justifies our struggles in MBB by saying how few recruits we have access to and how MBB lacks the facilities and $ that other programs have.  That argument doesn't hold water if you look at the success of the Ivies in MBB.

It would be interesting to know what academic requirements the Ivies hold basketball recruits to. About the same, harder, or easier than Stanford?

[Phogge]

Monty had Brevin who started it all. The other guys have never had a guy who played like Moses leading his people out of Egypt. There has never been a cornerstone player for the Three Stooges who followed. Robin was the closest but he really never set the stage like Brevin, Arthur, Casey and Chris did.

[Phogge]

Monty had Brevin who started it all. The other guys have never had a guy who played like Moses leading his people out of Egypt. There has never been a cornerstone player for the Three Stooges who followed. Robin was the closest but he really never set the stage like Brevin, Arthur, Casey and Chris did.

[Hank 91]

Remember Kenny Ammann (for some reason the question mark on my keyboard isn't working). He transferred to Stanford and joined the team in 1990 or '91. He was a nice addition, but the strangest thing was that he was married. I remember he used to wave to his wife in the stands all the time. I feel like his name has come up from time to time here. I think he coaches now.

[Hank 91]

Remember Kenny Ammann (for some reason the question mark on my keyboard isn't working). He transferred to Stanford and joined the team in 1990 or '91. He was a nice addition, but the strangest thing was that he was married. I remember he used to wave to his wife in the stands all the time. I feel like his name has come up from time to time here. I think he coaches now.

[BostonCard]

Monty had Brevin who started it all. The other guys have never had a guy who played like Moses leading his people out of Egypt. There has never been a cornerstone player for the Three Stooges who followed. Robin was the closest but he really never set the stage like Brevin, Arthur, Casey and Chris did.

Todd Lichti and Adam Keefe would like a word with you sir.

BC

[BostonCard]

Monty had Brevin who started it all. The other guys have never had a guy who played like Moses leading his people out of Egypt. There has never been a cornerstone player for the Three Stooges who followed. Robin was the closest but he really never set the stage like Brevin, Arthur, Casey and Chris did.

Todd Lichti and Adam Keefe would like a word with you sir.

BC

[JJJ]

Remember Kenny Ammann (for some reason the question mark on my keyboard isn't working). He transferred to Stanford and joined the team in 1990 or '91. He was a nice addition, but the strangest thing was that he was married. I remember he used to wave to his wife in the stands all the time. I feel like his name has come up from time to time here. I think he coaches now.

Funny what you find on Google (TM Stanford):

https://thecardboard.org/board/showthread.php?tid=8461

[JJJ]

Remember Kenny Ammann (for some reason the question mark on my keyboard isn't working). He transferred to Stanford and joined the team in 1990 or '91. He was a nice addition, but the strangest thing was that he was married. I remember he used to wave to his wife in the stands all the time. I feel like his name has come up from time to time here. I think he coaches now.

Funny what you find on Google (TM Stanford):

https://thecardboard.org/board/showthread.php?tid=8461

[Phogge]

Monty had Brevin who started it all. The other guys have never had a guy who played like Moses leading his people out of Egypt. There has never been a cornerstone player for the Three Stooges who followed. Robin was the closest but he really never set the stage like Brevin, Arthur, Casey and Chris did.

Todd Lichti and Adam Keefe would like a word with you sir.

BC

Nice players but Brevin was the catalyst for the Run.

[Phogge]

Monty had Brevin who started it all. The other guys have never had a guy who played like Moses leading his people out of Egypt. There has never been a cornerstone player for the Three Stooges who followed. Robin was the closest but he really never set the stage like Brevin, Arthur, Casey and Chris did.

Todd Lichti and Adam Keefe would like a word with you sir.

BC

Nice players but Brevin was the catalyst for the Run.

[CornFed]

Lichti was the key.  Without the hope that his play inspired, we may not get Knight or Keefe.  Montgomery beautifully parlayed a little bit of initial success into a little more success and then parlayed that into a little more success.  His recruiting steadily gained ground and he started having some of the Harbaugh/Shaw mojo.  That is more magical than I understood at the time.  

I'm not expecting we will get back to that level of recruiting success in my remaining lifetime.  I hope we do, but I think there is a lot of serendipity involved.

[CornFed]

Lichti was the key.  Without the hope that his play inspired, we may not get Knight or Keefe.  Montgomery beautifully parlayed a little bit of initial success into a little more success and then parlayed that into a little more success.  His recruiting steadily gained ground and he started having some of the Harbaugh/Shaw mojo.  That is more magical than I understood at the time.  

I'm not expecting we will get back to that level of recruiting success in my remaining lifetime.  I hope we do, but I think there is a lot of serendipity involved.

[Phogge]

Sorry, think it’s a homer call. Brevin was the key.

[Phogge]

Sorry, think it’s a homer call. Brevin was the key.

[SamuelMcF]

Back on topic...

It would be interesting to know what academic requirements the Ivies hold basketball recruits to. About the same, harder, or easier than Stanford?

My intuition tells me the requirements are generally pretty similar, but I really have no idea.

A HS buddy of mine - our star power forward - committed to taking a year at prep school (Northfield Mount Hermon, Josh Sharma's HS) then going to Harvard for basketball, and he was recruited by plenty of P5 schools but not Stanford. Going to the best academic school he could was his top priority, as a first-generation college student born to Nigerian immigrants. Amazing story, and a great kid. He was an all-B kind of student (our private HS was notoriously difficult and competitive, but I don't think he took many honors/AP classes) with a shaky SAT score that he was able to raise during his prep school year. Highest-rated recruit in Harvard basketball history, at least at the time.

I'm not sure if Stanford didn't recruit him due to the grades/SAT situation (before prep school) or because the 2 PF recruits we signed that year (Roscoe Allen and Grant Verhoeven) were higher on the staff's board; all 3 guys were ranked similarly, in the 75-100 range.

[SamuelMcF]

Back on topic...

It would be interesting to know what academic requirements the Ivies hold basketball recruits to. About the same, harder, or easier than Stanford?

My intuition tells me the requirements are generally pretty similar, but I really have no idea.

A HS buddy of mine - our star power forward - committed to taking a year at prep school (Northfield Mount Hermon, Josh Sharma's HS) then going to Harvard for basketball, and he was recruited by plenty of P5 schools but not Stanford. Going to the best academic school he could was his top priority, as a first-generation college student born to Nigerian immigrants. Amazing story, and a great kid. He was an all-B kind of student (our private HS was notoriously difficult and competitive, but I don't think he took many honors/AP classes) with a shaky SAT score that he was able to raise during his prep school year. Highest-rated recruit in Harvard basketball history, at least at the time.

I'm not sure if Stanford didn't recruit him due to the grades/SAT situation (before prep school) or because the 2 PF recruits we signed that year (Roscoe Allen and Grant Verhoeven) were higher on the staff's board; all 3 guys were ranked similarly, in the 75-100 range.