[Mick]

It's also a burr under my saddle that Joe Jackson remains on the Ineligible List. I don't understand why. His case was brought up to Rob Manfred as recently as 2015 who refused to reinstate him.

Joe couldn't read or write.  He had no schooling at all.  In the WS, which he supposedly threw, he hit .375 with a .956 OPS, better than he had during the 1917 WS two years earlier.

[Mick]

It's also a burr under my saddle that Joe Jackson remains on the Ineligible List. I don't understand why. His case was brought up to Rob Manfred as recently as 2015 who refused to reinstate him.

Joe couldn't read or write.  He had no schooling at all.  In the WS, which he supposedly threw, he hit .375 with a .956 OPS, better than he had during the 1917 WS two years earlier.

[Phogge]

I’d vote for Marvin Miller. The owners are almost the same quality (scumbag) as the NCAA. Miller changed the game. Voting him in gives a big finger to MLB. Viva Ole!

The middle finger of my other hand is pointed at Muir for not ordering Shaw to fire Lance and Tavita.

[Phogge]

I’d vote for Marvin Miller. The owners are almost the same quality (scumbag) as the NCAA. Miller changed the game. Voting him in gives a big finger to MLB. Viva Ole!

The middle finger of my other hand is pointed at Muir for not ordering Shaw to fire Lance and Tavita.

[terry]

Also, Steve Garvey, 10 time all-star and no HoF shot. 

Garvey is on the veterans' committee ballot this year (technically it's the Modern Baseball Era Committee ballot). Here's the full ballot, along with each player's best percentage in a regular HOF election -

Dwight Evans         10.4%
Steve Garvey         42.6%
Tommy John          31.7%
Don Mattingly        28.2%
Marvin Miller
Thurman Munson  15.5%
Dale Murphy          23.2%
Dave Parker           24.5%
Ted Simmons           3.7%
Lou Whitaker           2.9%

The Modern Baseball Era Committee voted two of these guys into the Hall of Fame -- Marvin Miller and Ted Simmons. Miller got 12 of 16 votes to just meet the 75% requirement. Simmons got 13 votes.

Dwight Evans got 8 votes, Dave Parker got 7, Steve Garvey and Lou Whitaker got 6. Tommy John, Don Mattingly, Thurman Munson and Dale Murphy got 3 or fewer.

[terry]

Also, Steve Garvey, 10 time all-star and no HoF shot. 

Garvey is on the veterans' committee ballot this year (technically it's the Modern Baseball Era Committee ballot). Here's the full ballot, along with each player's best percentage in a regular HOF election -

Dwight Evans         10.4%
Steve Garvey         42.6%
Tommy John          31.7%
Don Mattingly        28.2%
Marvin Miller
Thurman Munson  15.5%
Dale Murphy          23.2%
Dave Parker           24.5%
Ted Simmons           3.7%
Lou Whitaker           2.9%

The Modern Baseball Era Committee voted two of these guys into the Hall of Fame -- Marvin Miller and Ted Simmons. Miller got 12 of 16 votes to just meet the 75% requirement. Simmons got 13 votes.

Dwight Evans got 8 votes, Dave Parker got 7, Steve Garvey and Lou Whitaker got 6. Tommy John, Don Mattingly, Thurman Munson and Dale Murphy got 3 or fewer.

[Giants]

Miller in and no Garvey - sounds good to me.  Miller did more to influence the game than any player in the Modern Baseball Era and Garvey was a mediocre Dodger (apologies for the oxymoron).    

Also, Steve Garvey, 10 time all-star and no HoF shot. 

Garvey is on the veterans' committee ballot this year (technically it's the Modern Baseball Era Committee ballot). Here's the full ballot, along with each player's best percentage in a regular HOF election -

Dwight Evans         10.4%
Steve Garvey         42.6%
Tommy John          31.7%
Don Mattingly        28.2%
Marvin Miller
Thurman Munson  15.5%
Dale Murphy          23.2%
Dave Parker           24.5%
Ted Simmons           3.7%
Lou Whitaker           2.9%

The Modern Baseball Era Committee voted two of these guys into the Hall of Fame -- Marvin Miller and Ted Simmons. Miller got 12 of 16 votes to just meet the 75% requirement. Simmons got 13 votes.

Dwight Evans got 8 votes, Dave Parker got 7, and Steve Garvey and Lou Whitaker got 6. Tommy John, Don Mattingly, Thurman Munson and Dale Murphy got 3 or fewer.

---

Clemens, Bonds and Jeter.  It is the Hall of Fame not the Hall of the Very Good.  

Here's the 2020 baseball Hall of Fame ballot. Asterisks indicate first year on the ballot. For whom would you vote?

Bobby Abreu*
Josh Beckett*
Heath Bell*
Barry Bonds
Eric Chávez*
Roger Clemens
Adam Dunn*
Chone Figgins*
Rafael Furcal*
Jason Giambi*
Todd Helton
Raúl Ibañez*
Derek Jeter*
Andruw Jones
Jeff Kent
Paul Konerko*
Cliff Lee*
Carlos Peña*
Brad Penny*
Andy Pettitte
J.J. Putz*
Manny Ramírez
Brian Roberts*
Scott Rolen
Curt Schilling
Gary Sheffield
Alfonso Soriano*
Sammy Sosa
José Valverde*
Omar Vizquel
Billy Wagner
Larry Walker

Of the players on this list who were on the ballot last year, the voting results were:

Curt Schilling     60.9%
Roger Clemens   59.5%
Barry Bonds       59.1%
Larry Walker      54.6%
Omar Vizquel     42.8%
Manny Ramirez   22.8%
Jeff Kent            18.2%
Scott Rolen        17.2%
Billy Wagner       16.7%
Todd Helton        16.5%
Gary Sheffield     13.6%
Andy Pettitte         9.9%
Sammy Sosa         8.5%
Andruw Jones        7.5%

Larry Walker is in his final year on the ballot. Schilling, Clemens, Bonds, and Sosa will be on the ballot for two more years after this year.

[Giants]

Miller in and no Garvey - sounds good to me.  Miller did more to influence the game than any player in the Modern Baseball Era and Garvey was a mediocre Dodger (apologies for the oxymoron).    

Also, Steve Garvey, 10 time all-star and no HoF shot. 

Garvey is on the veterans' committee ballot this year (technically it's the Modern Baseball Era Committee ballot). Here's the full ballot, along with each player's best percentage in a regular HOF election -

Dwight Evans         10.4%
Steve Garvey         42.6%
Tommy John          31.7%
Don Mattingly        28.2%
Marvin Miller
Thurman Munson  15.5%
Dale Murphy          23.2%
Dave Parker           24.5%
Ted Simmons           3.7%
Lou Whitaker           2.9%

The Modern Baseball Era Committee voted two of these guys into the Hall of Fame -- Marvin Miller and Ted Simmons. Miller got 12 of 16 votes to just meet the 75% requirement. Simmons got 13 votes.

Dwight Evans got 8 votes, Dave Parker got 7, and Steve Garvey and Lou Whitaker got 6. Tommy John, Don Mattingly, Thurman Munson and Dale Murphy got 3 or fewer.

---

Clemens, Bonds and Jeter.  It is the Hall of Fame not the Hall of the Very Good.  

Here's the 2020 baseball Hall of Fame ballot. Asterisks indicate first year on the ballot. For whom would you vote?

Bobby Abreu*
Josh Beckett*
Heath Bell*
Barry Bonds
Eric Chávez*
Roger Clemens
Adam Dunn*
Chone Figgins*
Rafael Furcal*
Jason Giambi*
Todd Helton
Raúl Ibañez*
Derek Jeter*
Andruw Jones
Jeff Kent
Paul Konerko*
Cliff Lee*
Carlos Peña*
Brad Penny*
Andy Pettitte
J.J. Putz*
Manny Ramírez
Brian Roberts*
Scott Rolen
Curt Schilling
Gary Sheffield
Alfonso Soriano*
Sammy Sosa
José Valverde*
Omar Vizquel
Billy Wagner
Larry Walker

Of the players on this list who were on the ballot last year, the voting results were:

Curt Schilling     60.9%
Roger Clemens   59.5%
Barry Bonds       59.1%
Larry Walker      54.6%
Omar Vizquel     42.8%
Manny Ramirez   22.8%
Jeff Kent            18.2%
Scott Rolen        17.2%
Billy Wagner       16.7%
Todd Helton        16.5%
Gary Sheffield     13.6%
Andy Pettitte         9.9%
Sammy Sosa         8.5%
Andruw Jones        7.5%

Larry Walker is in his final year on the ballot. Schilling, Clemens, Bonds, and Sosa will be on the ballot for two more years after this year.

[Phogge]

Jeter and Vizquel.

Personal experience with Bonds on many occasions and Clemens on one very big occasion. Both horrible persons in relations with people just covering the sport (not writers). Screw them no matter how talented.

Joe Jackson should be in. Duped. Much of the problem on scumbag owner Commisky.

[Phogge]

Jeter and Vizquel.

Personal experience with Bonds on many occasions and Clemens on one very big occasion. Both horrible persons in relations with people just covering the sport (not writers). Screw them no matter how talented.

Joe Jackson should be in. Duped. Much of the problem on scumbag owner Commisky.

[cardcrimson]

Personal experience Clemens on one very big occasion.

Oh, do share. . . .

[cardcrimson]

Personal experience Clemens on one very big occasion.

Oh, do share. . . .

[teejers1]

Miller in and no Garvey - sounds good to me.  Miller did more to influence the game than any player in the Modern Baseball Era and Garvey was a mediocre Dodger (apologies for the oxymoron).    

Oxymoron or redundancy?  Your handle suggests the latter.

BTW, agree on Miller "in" and Garvey "not in" for the persuasive argument that it's a Hall of Fame and not Hall of Very Good.

[teejers1]

Miller in and no Garvey - sounds good to me.  Miller did more to influence the game than any player in the Modern Baseball Era and Garvey was a mediocre Dodger (apologies for the oxymoron).    

Oxymoron or redundancy?  Your handle suggests the latter.

BTW, agree on Miller "in" and Garvey "not in" for the persuasive argument that it's a Hall of Fame and not Hall of Very Good.

[Phogge]

Playoff vs A’s. From our low third MLB position I followed long lens Clemens running in after warming up. He gets to the end of the dugout and goes about ten feet out of his way into a camera position and throws a sharp elbow into a still photographer. Guy almost falls over. I go over and tell him that I have the whole incident. He passes, as most chick**** members of the press do. Not a first occurrence for Clemens. This may seem small potatoes to you guys but anytime you have your head in a viewfinder you are virtually unprotected. At the Cambodian riots at UCB in 1970 I was near a KGO cameraman who was blinded in his right eye when a protestor slammed into him. Lou was tough and kept on shooting even though we had to force him to the medics.

I have had two fights with guys who tried to push my eyepiece into my head, one in Taiwan and one in Berkeley. So my blood boils when Clemens name is brought up.

As long as we are on the subject one of the very big jerks was Gary Gaetti. Best guys other than many Giants were Hershieser and Bench.

[Phogge]

Playoff vs A’s. From our low third MLB position I followed long lens Clemens running in after warming up. He gets to the end of the dugout and goes about ten feet out of his way into a camera position and throws a sharp elbow into a still photographer. Guy almost falls over. I go over and tell him that I have the whole incident. He passes, as most chick**** members of the press do. Not a first occurrence for Clemens. This may seem small potatoes to you guys but anytime you have your head in a viewfinder you are virtually unprotected. At the Cambodian riots at UCB in 1970 I was near a KGO cameraman who was blinded in his right eye when a protestor slammed into him. Lou was tough and kept on shooting even though we had to force him to the medics.

I have had two fights with guys who tried to push my eyepiece into my head, one in Taiwan and one in Berkeley. So my blood boils when Clemens name is brought up.

As long as we are on the subject one of the very big jerks was Gary Gaetti. Best guys other than many Giants were Hershieser and Bench.

[cardcrimson]

Playoff vs A’s. From our low third MLB position I followed long lens Clemens running in after warming up. He gets to the end of the dugout and goes about ten feet out of his way into a camera position and throws a sharp elbow into a still photographer. Guy almost falls over. I go over and tell him that I have the whole incident. He passes, as most chick**** members of the press do. Not a first occurrence for Clemens. This may seem small potatoes to you guys but anytime you have your head in a viewfinder you are  virtually unprotected. At the Cambodian riots at UCB in 1970 I was near a KGO cameraman who was blinded in his right eye when a protestor slammed into him. Lou was tough and kept on shooting even though we had to force him to the medics.

I have had two fights with guys who tried to push my eyepiece into my head, one in Taiwan and one in Berkeley. So my blood boils when Clemens name is brought up.

As long as we are on the subject one of the very big jerks was Gary Gaetti. Best guys other than many Giants were Hershieser and Bench.

Great stories, thanks!

Heard good things about Hershieser as well, I think I read somewhere that Steve Sax named his first son after him. . . .

[cardcrimson]

Playoff vs A’s. From our low third MLB position I followed long lens Clemens running in after warming up. He gets to the end of the dugout and goes about ten feet out of his way into a camera position and throws a sharp elbow into a still photographer. Guy almost falls over. I go over and tell him that I have the whole incident. He passes, as most chick**** members of the press do. Not a first occurrence for Clemens. This may seem small potatoes to you guys but anytime you have your head in a viewfinder you are  virtually unprotected. At the Cambodian riots at UCB in 1970 I was near a KGO cameraman who was blinded in his right eye when a protestor slammed into him. Lou was tough and kept on shooting even though we had to force him to the medics.

I have had two fights with guys who tried to push my eyepiece into my head, one in Taiwan and one in Berkeley. So my blood boils when Clemens name is brought up.

As long as we are on the subject one of the very big jerks was Gary Gaetti. Best guys other than many Giants were Hershieser and Bench.

Great stories, thanks!

Heard good things about Hershieser as well, I think I read somewhere that Steve Sax named his first son after him. . . .

[teejers1]

Great stories, thanks!

Heard good things about Hershieser as well, I think I read somewhere that Steve Sax named his first son after him. . . .

Lifelong Giants fan = never big on Dodgers.  But I can give propers/admiration where due, and Hershiser was incredibly good, especially that scoreless streak.  Also a great playoff pitcher, IIRC.  Distinctly remember in one post-season - think it might have been WS against the Yankees - the opponent was trying to throw off Orel's timing by continually stepping out of the batter's box.  It was painfully obvious this was a ploy by a team trying to do anything to derail a juggernaut.  And then came the moment where I thought to myself "Hershiser is all right."  He is in set position ready to deliver, and a batter steps out of the box (for the umpteenth time).  Orel takes two steps toward home plate and says "Get in the %^&* batter's box" to a guy much bigger who was holding a bat/weapon.  And Hershiser was probably 165 pounds soaking wet.

[teejers1]

Great stories, thanks!

Heard good things about Hershieser as well, I think I read somewhere that Steve Sax named his first son after him. . . .

Lifelong Giants fan = never big on Dodgers.  But I can give propers/admiration where due, and Hershiser was incredibly good, especially that scoreless streak.  Also a great playoff pitcher, IIRC.  Distinctly remember in one post-season - think it might have been WS against the Yankees - the opponent was trying to throw off Orel's timing by continually stepping out of the batter's box.  It was painfully obvious this was a ploy by a team trying to do anything to derail a juggernaut.  And then came the moment where I thought to myself "Hershiser is all right."  He is in set position ready to deliver, and a batter steps out of the box (for the umpteenth time).  Orel takes two steps toward home plate and says "Get in the %^&* batter's box" to a guy much bigger who was holding a bat/weapon.  And Hershiser was probably 165 pounds soaking wet.

[Phogge]

Story was that he showered seven times a day. He was looking for our camera in ‘88 much more interested in Disney money than celebrating with his teammates.

[Phogge]

Story was that he showered seven times a day. He was looking for our camera in ‘88 much more interested in Disney money than celebrating with his teammates.

[terry]

Derek Jeter and Larry Walker are in the Hall. The voting results:

99.7%  Derek Jeter
76.6%  Larry Walker
70.0%  Curt Schilling
61.0%  Roger Clemens
60.7%  Barry Bonds
52.6%  Omar Vizquel
35.3%  Scott Rolen
31.7%  Billy Wagner
30.5%  Gary Sheffield
29.2%  Todd Helton
28.2%  Manny Ramirez
27.5%  Jeff Kent
19.4%  Andruw Jones
13.9%  Sammy Sosa

[terry]

Derek Jeter and Larry Walker are in the Hall. The voting results:

99.7%  Derek Jeter
76.6%  Larry Walker
70.0%  Curt Schilling
61.0%  Roger Clemens
60.7%  Barry Bonds
52.6%  Omar Vizquel
35.3%  Scott Rolen
31.7%  Billy Wagner
30.5%  Gary Sheffield
29.2%  Todd Helton
28.2%  Manny Ramirez
27.5%  Jeff Kent
19.4%  Andruw Jones
13.9%  Sammy Sosa

[BostonCard]

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/2851...ions-2020s

Interesting analysis. It missed Walker this year (who got in by 1.6%).  Bonds and Clemens moved up marginally (from 59% to 61%), but they have a better shot next year, when nobody of note will be new to the ballot and nobody will be on their last ballot.  The analysis predicts Schilling will get there, but that Bonds and Clemens will not in their last two years.

BC

[BostonCard]

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/2851...ions-2020s

Interesting analysis. It missed Walker this year (who got in by 1.6%).  Bonds and Clemens moved up marginally (from 59% to 61%), but they have a better shot next year, when nobody of note will be new to the ballot and nobody will be on their last ballot.  The analysis predicts Schilling will get there, but that Bonds and Clemens will not in their last two years.

BC

[Spiny_Norman]

Some interesting data on Jeter's defensive ability (or lack thereof). He was far and away the worst defensive SS of his generation and one of the worst position players.

https://elitesportsny.com/2017/05/13/rem...d-defense/

[Spiny_Norman]

Some interesting data on Jeter's defensive ability (or lack thereof). He was far and away the worst defensive SS of his generation and one of the worst position players.

https://elitesportsny.com/2017/05/13/rem...d-defense/

[lex24]

Some interesting data on Jeter's defensive ability (or lack thereof). He was far and away the worst defensive SS of his generation and one of the worst position players.

https://elitesportsny.com/2017/05/13/rem...d-defense/

I’ll never be sold on defensive metrics.  Ask the A’s if they think he was a defensive liability.  Is there a metric for “Playoff Series Saved” ?

[lex24]

Some interesting data on Jeter's defensive ability (or lack thereof). He was far and away the worst defensive SS of his generation and one of the worst position players.

https://elitesportsny.com/2017/05/13/rem...d-defense/

I’ll never be sold on defensive metrics.  Ask the A’s if they think he was a defensive liability.  Is there a metric for “Playoff Series Saved” ?

[magnus]

Some interesting data on Jeter's defensive ability (or lack thereof). He was far and away the worst defensive SS of his generation and one of the worst position players.

https://elitesportsny.com/2017/05/13/rem...d-defense/

On the flip side (pun not originally intended, but what the heck), as the article added at the end, against the A's, Jeter made one of the greatest heads up plays by a shortstop.  That play along with the playoffs play where he ranges into the stands to catch a ball and comes out bloodied probably went a long way towards counterbalancing the (valid) lack of range arguments in a lot of voters minds.  Oh and the Jeter jump throw (snagging a grounder on the run deep in the left field hole, then jumping up in the air and throwing the ball across his body in one motion) was something that was much talked about in the early to mid 2000s.  

Over the course of a season, his defense may have cost the Yankees some wins...but they had wins to spare.

---

Ask the A’s if they think he was a defensive liability.  Is there a metric for “Playoff Series Saved” ?

I saw written that FP Santangelo and Eric Byrnes could not believe that neither were being called to pinch run for JG at the time.  Apparently, Ken Macha convinced Art Howe that JG's lefty bat was worth keeping in the lineup.

FP tweeted today that at 53, he's still faster than JG was then. hah.

[magnus]

Some interesting data on Jeter's defensive ability (or lack thereof). He was far and away the worst defensive SS of his generation and one of the worst position players.

https://elitesportsny.com/2017/05/13/rem...d-defense/

On the flip side (pun not originally intended, but what the heck), as the article added at the end, against the A's, Jeter made one of the greatest heads up plays by a shortstop.  That play along with the playoffs play where he ranges into the stands to catch a ball and comes out bloodied probably went a long way towards counterbalancing the (valid) lack of range arguments in a lot of voters minds.  Oh and the Jeter jump throw (snagging a grounder on the run deep in the left field hole, then jumping up in the air and throwing the ball across his body in one motion) was something that was much talked about in the early to mid 2000s.  

Over the course of a season, his defense may have cost the Yankees some wins...but they had wins to spare.

---

Ask the A’s if they think he was a defensive liability.  Is there a metric for “Playoff Series Saved” ?

I saw written that FP Santangelo and Eric Byrnes could not believe that neither were being called to pinch run for JG at the time.  Apparently, Ken Macha convinced Art Howe that JG's lefty bat was worth keeping in the lineup.

FP tweeted today that at 53, he's still faster than JG was then. hah.

[OutsiderFan]

A Baseball Hall of Fame that doesn't included Barry Bonds, Roger Clemons, and Pete Rose is one I don't take seriously.

I may be one person, but I no longer see the Hall of Fame is anything special as a result.

I have no problem with the Hall information about these players pointing out they did questionable things or are suspected of doing questionable things. I wouldn't even be against a "Steroid Era" wing in the Hall for players wrapped up in it.

Bonds: Has always denied using steroids. He probably did use some PED, but was it even a banned substance when he did?  
Clemons: Admitted using steroids after previously denying.
Rose: Bet on baseball as manager, but his playing career deserves to be honored.

Both Clemons and Bonds had enough accomplishments in the game -  before they ever used PEDs - to be Hall of Fame level players. And ditto Rose before becoming a manager.

As for others, Jeter can't be denied and Larry Walker is deserving.  For me, not too many others are locks, but I think Gary Sheffield should be in the Hall.  There were few hitters I feared more as a fan than Sheffield. He played multiple positions played for 22 seasons, and has got the 35th highest WAR in MLB history.  A career .292 average and 509 HRs should put him in, in addition to the fact he led his Little League team to the World Series final as a kid!

[OutsiderFan]

A Baseball Hall of Fame that doesn't included Barry Bonds, Roger Clemons, and Pete Rose is one I don't take seriously.

I may be one person, but I no longer see the Hall of Fame is anything special as a result.

I have no problem with the Hall information about these players pointing out they did questionable things or are suspected of doing questionable things. I wouldn't even be against a "Steroid Era" wing in the Hall for players wrapped up in it.

Bonds: Has always denied using steroids. He probably did use some PED, but was it even a banned substance when he did?  
Clemons: Admitted using steroids after previously denying.
Rose: Bet on baseball as manager, but his playing career deserves to be honored.

Both Clemons and Bonds had enough accomplishments in the game -  before they ever used PEDs - to be Hall of Fame level players. And ditto Rose before becoming a manager.

As for others, Jeter can't be denied and Larry Walker is deserving.  For me, not too many others are locks, but I think Gary Sheffield should be in the Hall.  There were few hitters I feared more as a fan than Sheffield. He played multiple positions played for 22 seasons, and has got the 35th highest WAR in MLB history.  A career .292 average and 509 HRs should put him in, in addition to the fact he led his Little League team to the World Series final as a kid!

[Mick]

Agreed.  I don't take it seriously at all.  I'd rather have warts-and-all plaques of the truly great players, including Shoeless Joe Jackson.  It's not the Hall of Really Nice Guys Who Happen To Be Good Baseball Players.  If Rabbit Maranville is in the hall, I see no need to take it seriously without Rose, Jackson, Bonds, Clemens, etc.

BTW, there are guys who were eligible and on the HoF ballot who were under indictment for killing people.  Apparently, no problem there.

[Mick]

Agreed.  I don't take it seriously at all.  I'd rather have warts-and-all plaques of the truly great players, including Shoeless Joe Jackson.  It's not the Hall of Really Nice Guys Who Happen To Be Good Baseball Players.  If Rabbit Maranville is in the hall, I see no need to take it seriously without Rose, Jackson, Bonds, Clemens, etc.

BTW, there are guys who were eligible and on the HoF ballot who were under indictment for killing people.  Apparently, no problem there.

[Langdude]

I’m disappointed Walker made the Hall. He was very good, that’s all. Not very good away from Coors. He should be in a Rockies wing, perhaps. And he knew he had limitations; I remember how he would take days off when team was facing Big Unit. Tony Gwynn, also a lefty, used to love the challenge of facing the best.

-m.

[Langdude]

I’m disappointed Walker made the Hall. He was very good, that’s all. Not very good away from Coors. He should be in a Rockies wing, perhaps. And he knew he had limitations; I remember how he would take days off when team was facing Big Unit. Tony Gwynn, also a lefty, used to love the challenge of facing the best.

-m.

[cardcrimson]

Agreed.  I don't take it seriously at all.  I'd rather have warts-and-all plaques of the truly great players, including Shoeless Joe Jackson.  It's not the Hall of Really Nice Guys Who Happen To Be Good Baseball Players.  If Rabbit Maranville is in the hall, I see no need to take it seriously without Rose, Jackson, Bonds, Clemens, etc.

BTW, there are guys who were eligible and on the HoF ballot who were under indictment for killing people.  Apparently, no problem there.

Then again, I'd imagine that the players do take it seriously. Let them make the decisions. . . .

[cardcrimson]

Agreed.  I don't take it seriously at all.  I'd rather have warts-and-all plaques of the truly great players, including Shoeless Joe Jackson.  It's not the Hall of Really Nice Guys Who Happen To Be Good Baseball Players.  If Rabbit Maranville is in the hall, I see no need to take it seriously without Rose, Jackson, Bonds, Clemens, etc.

BTW, there are guys who were eligible and on the HoF ballot who were under indictment for killing people.  Apparently, no problem there.

Then again, I'd imagine that the players do take it seriously. Let them make the decisions. . . .