02-08-2020, 10:16 PM
ESPN: Oscar da Silva injures head in scary collision at Colorado. https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basket...van-battey
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ESPN: Oscar da Silva injures head in scary collision at Colorado.
ESPN: Oscar da Silva injures head in scary collision at Colorado.
ESPN: Oscar da Silva injures head in scary collision at Colorado. https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basket...van-battey
02-09-2020, 06:36 AM
Don't know if I've ever seen anything like that in a basketball game before. The emotional reaction from the CU player makes clear he had no intention of hurting da Silva and it was a very freak accident. da Silva showed a lot of toughness waving off the stretcher and walking off the floor, but it certainly appeared he was concussed.
Of course, Stanford's been far too prone to these types of freak accidents happening to it players in hoops and football lately. Stanford probably wins that game if da Silva remains in it, which probably if not guarantees, significantly increases its odds for an NCAA tournament berth.
Of course, Stanford's been far too prone to these types of freak accidents happening to it players in hoops and football lately. Stanford probably wins that game if da Silva remains in it, which probably if not guarantees, significantly increases its odds for an NCAA tournament berth.
Don't know if I've ever seen anything like that in a basketball game before. The emotional reaction from the CU player makes clear he had no intention of hurting da Silva and it was a very freak accident. da Silva showed a lot of toughness waving off the stretcher and walking off the floor, but it certainly appeared he was concussed.
Of course, Stanford's been far too prone to these types of freak accidents happening to it players in hoops and football lately. Stanford probably wins that game if da Silva remains in it, which probably if not guarantees, significantly increases its odds for an NCAA tournament berth.
Of course, Stanford's been far too prone to these types of freak accidents happening to it players in hoops and football lately. Stanford probably wins that game if da Silva remains in it, which probably if not guarantees, significantly increases its odds for an NCAA tournament berth.
02-09-2020, 08:58 AM
On the broadcast they showed the incident from a camera view located behind the baseline. From that view, you can see exactly what happen as the two men hit the floor. After showing that view, the broadcaster said something like "wow, we won't show that again," Interestingly, that revealing view cannot be found.
Put a glide in your stride and a dip in your hip.
On the broadcast they showed the incident from a camera view located behind the baseline. From that view, you can see exactly what happen as the two men hit the floor. After showing that view, the broadcaster said something like "wow, we won't show that again," Interestingly, that revealing view cannot be found.
Put a glide in your stride and a dip in your hip.
02-09-2020, 10:22 AM
Battey has since said:
Who goes up for a layup with their eyes closed?
This reminds me of the shot to the head taken by Costello in the NW game.
Quote:“I wasn’t banged up at all. The fact that I had my eyes closed running up, I think I elbowed him in the face.
Who goes up for a layup with their eyes closed?
This reminds me of the shot to the head taken by Costello in the NW game.
Put a glide in your stride and a dip in your hip.
Battey has since said:
Who goes up for a layup with their eyes closed?
This reminds me of the shot to the head taken by Costello in the NW game.
Quote:“I wasn’t banged up at all. The fact that I had my eyes closed running up, I think I elbowed him in the face.
Who goes up for a layup with their eyes closed?
This reminds me of the shot to the head taken by Costello in the NW game.
Put a glide in your stride and a dip in your hip.
02-09-2020, 11:02 AM
I found the video clip from the baseline camera. You can judge for yourself. The sequence starts at :41 into the clip. Watch as they go down Battey slaps his right arm down onto Oscar, turns his head towards Oscar, moves his elbow/forearm into position on the side of Oscar's head, and drives his head into the hardwood. Then, in a classic move that many basketball players do when they are on defense and commit a foul, Battey raises his arms and holds them up as if to say "I didn't do it. It wasn't me." Battey was on offense, so why the arms up move?
I was an NCAA wrestler, a HS wrestling coach, and a wrestling referee. This would have been penalized for unnecessary roughness.
I get that Battey was upset with himself after the mugging. I revise my description of "croc tears" to tears of regret. I believe that in the heat of the moment he acted aggressively. I believe that his aggression was to punish Oscar for getting in his way under the basket. Call it competitive instinct or split second reaction, it was still conscious action. His emotional meltdown through the rest of game bolsters my belief that he felt deep guilt for what he did to Oscar. That is good. It means that he is not a sociopath. But it also means that he needs help controlling his aggression on the court.
https://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=28661548
I was an NCAA wrestler, a HS wrestling coach, and a wrestling referee. This would have been penalized for unnecessary roughness.
I get that Battey was upset with himself after the mugging. I revise my description of "croc tears" to tears of regret. I believe that in the heat of the moment he acted aggressively. I believe that his aggression was to punish Oscar for getting in his way under the basket. Call it competitive instinct or split second reaction, it was still conscious action. His emotional meltdown through the rest of game bolsters my belief that he felt deep guilt for what he did to Oscar. That is good. It means that he is not a sociopath. But it also means that he needs help controlling his aggression on the court.
https://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=28661548
Put a glide in your stride and a dip in your hip.
I found the video clip from the baseline camera. You can judge for yourself. The sequence starts at :41 into the clip. Watch as they go down Battey slaps his right arm down onto Oscar, turns his head towards Oscar, moves his elbow/forearm into position on the side of Oscar's head, and drives his head into the hardwood. Then, in a classic move that many basketball players do when they are on defense and commit a foul, Battey raises his arms and holds them up as if to say "I didn't do it. It wasn't me." Battey was on offense, so why the arms up move?
I was an NCAA wrestler, a HS wrestling coach, and a wrestling referee. This would have been penalized for unnecessary roughness.
I get that Battey was upset with himself after the mugging. I revise my description of "croc tears" to tears of regret. I believe that in the heat of the moment he acted aggressively. I believe that his aggression was to punish Oscar for getting in his way under the basket. Call it competitive instinct or split second reaction, it was still conscious action. His emotional meltdown through the rest of game bolsters my belief that he felt deep guilt for what he did to Oscar. That is good. It means that he is not a sociopath. But it also means that he needs help controlling his aggression on the court.
https://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=28661548
I was an NCAA wrestler, a HS wrestling coach, and a wrestling referee. This would have been penalized for unnecessary roughness.
I get that Battey was upset with himself after the mugging. I revise my description of "croc tears" to tears of regret. I believe that in the heat of the moment he acted aggressively. I believe that his aggression was to punish Oscar for getting in his way under the basket. Call it competitive instinct or split second reaction, it was still conscious action. His emotional meltdown through the rest of game bolsters my belief that he felt deep guilt for what he did to Oscar. That is good. It means that he is not a sociopath. But it also means that he needs help controlling his aggression on the court.
https://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=28661548
Put a glide in your stride and a dip in your hip.
02-09-2020, 11:14 AM
I understand this is a Stanford board. And it was scary injury. We all wish for Oscar to make a speedy and complete recovery.
But the notion that that was intentional is absurd. He’s a 260 pound man at full speed off balance falling to the ground along with Oscar. He couldn’t have tried to do that if he wanted to.
But the notion that that was intentional is absurd. He’s a 260 pound man at full speed off balance falling to the ground along with Oscar. He couldn’t have tried to do that if he wanted to.
I understand this is a Stanford board. And it was scary injury. We all wish for Oscar to make a speedy and complete recovery.
But the notion that that was intentional is absurd. He’s a 260 pound man at full speed off balance falling to the ground along with Oscar. He couldn’t have tried to do that if he wanted to.
But the notion that that was intentional is absurd. He’s a 260 pound man at full speed off balance falling to the ground along with Oscar. He couldn’t have tried to do that if he wanted to.
02-09-2020, 11:21 AM
I’m with lex. He was out of control, but clearly not intentional. Looked like he was trying to corral the ball.
BC
BC
I’m with lex. He was out of control, but clearly not intentional. Looked like he was trying to corral the ball.
BC
BC
02-09-2020, 12:46 PM
Watch the clip and judge for yourself. I don't think it's absurd. I know it's possible to mount an attack going full speed and falling to the ground because I've seen it done many times in wrestling and martial arts competition. I have my opinion and others have theirs. Let's all agree to hope for Oscar's speedy recovery.
Put a glide in your stride and a dip in your hip.
Watch the clip and judge for yourself. I don't think it's absurd. I know it's possible to mount an attack going full speed and falling to the ground because I've seen it done many times in wrestling and martial arts competition. I have my opinion and others have theirs. Let's all agree to hope for Oscar's speedy recovery.
Put a glide in your stride and a dip in your hip.
02-09-2020, 01:47 PM
Reviewing that video clip, it looks to me like Battey is trying to swat the ball as they go down together. His elbow ends up in the wrong spot; unfortunate but not intentional. I hope that Da Silva takes the time he needs to fully recuperate and minimize the risk of aggravating the injury.
Reviewing that video clip, it looks to me like Battey is trying to swat the ball as they go down together. His elbow ends up in the wrong spot; unfortunate but not intentional. I hope that Da Silva takes the time he needs to fully recuperate and minimize the risk of aggravating the injury.
from Stanford men's basketball on Facebook
Quote:UPDATE: Oscar is doing well today, and he continues to go through testing with our sports medicine staff. The timeline for his return to the court will be provided at a later date.
Eric
"the older we get the better we were"
from Stanford men's basketball on Facebook
Quote:UPDATE: Oscar is doing well today, and he continues to go through testing with our sports medicine staff. The timeline for his return to the court will be provided at a later date.
Eric
"the older we get the better we were"
02-09-2020, 06:14 PM
(02-09-2020, 12:46 PM)martyup Wrote: Watch the clip and judge for yourself. I don't think it's absurd. I know it's possible to mount an attack going full speed and falling to the ground because I've seen it done many times in wrestling and martial arts competition. I have my opinion and others have theirs. Let's all agree to hope for Oscar's speedy recovery.
I did, Marty. I always appreciate your passion. And I should not have used “absurd”. Fot that, I apologize. But I disagree strongly that there was intent. And it’s a serious charge to make.
In any event, we certainly all agree on our best wishes to Oscar.
(02-09-2020, 12:46 PM)martyup Wrote: Watch the clip and judge for yourself. I don't think it's absurd. I know it's possible to mount an attack going full speed and falling to the ground because I've seen it done many times in wrestling and martial arts competition. I have my opinion and others have theirs. Let's all agree to hope for Oscar's speedy recovery.
I did, Marty. I always appreciate your passion. And I should not have used “absurd”. Fot that, I apologize. But I disagree strongly that there was intent. And it’s a serious charge to make.
In any event, we certainly all agree on our best wishes to Oscar.
02-09-2020, 06:39 PM
(02-09-2020, 06:14 PM)lex24 Wrote:(02-09-2020, 12:46 PM)martyup Wrote: Watch the clip and judge for yourself. I don't think it's absurd. I know it's possible to mount an attack going full speed and falling to the ground because I've seen it done many times in wrestling and martial arts competition. I have my opinion and others have theirs. Let's all agree to hope for Oscar's speedy recovery.
I did, Marty. I always appreciate your passion. And I should not have used “absurd”. Fot that, I apologize. But I disagree strongly that there was intent. And it’s a serious charge to make.
In any event, we certainly all agree on our best wishes to Oscar.
I’m mildly on the Marty side of this debate. I see no specific intent to hit Oscar in the head. But, instead, I see intentional controlled aggression which is using the arm with intent to make aggressive contact without in the moment understanding that he was hitting someone’s head and not, say, a shoulder. I don’t doubt that he would not have behaved this way if he knew that he was going to drive Oscar’s head into the floor. But the reality is that a lot of players play close enough to the line that these kinds of injuries are foreseeable consequences. Best wishes to Oscar. I’ve had some fairly bad sports concussions. Sometimes the way back to feeling normal is longer than you hope for.
(02-09-2020, 06:14 PM)lex24 Wrote:(02-09-2020, 12:46 PM)martyup Wrote: Watch the clip and judge for yourself. I don't think it's absurd. I know it's possible to mount an attack going full speed and falling to the ground because I've seen it done many times in wrestling and martial arts competition. I have my opinion and others have theirs. Let's all agree to hope for Oscar's speedy recovery.
I did, Marty. I always appreciate your passion. And I should not have used “absurd”. Fot that, I apologize. But I disagree strongly that there was intent. And it’s a serious charge to make.
In any event, we certainly all agree on our best wishes to Oscar.
I’m mildly on the Marty side of this debate. I see no specific intent to hit Oscar in the head. But, instead, I see intentional controlled aggression which is using the arm with intent to make aggressive contact without in the moment understanding that he was hitting someone’s head and not, say, a shoulder. I don’t doubt that he would not have behaved this way if he knew that he was going to drive Oscar’s head into the floor. But the reality is that a lot of players play close enough to the line that these kinds of injuries are foreseeable consequences. Best wishes to Oscar. I’ve had some fairly bad sports concussions. Sometimes the way back to feeling normal is longer than you hope for.
02-09-2020, 07:08 PM
is it critical whether it's intentional? it's a dangerous play. swinging your elbow and making hard contact with the opponent's face has generally been a flagrant 2 regardless of intent (i understand the nomenclature has been changing and varies from college to pros) leading to getting tossed from the game. battey was without question swinging his elbow too close to oscar's face. if you do it intentionally, like punching someone, you get additional penalties, like a suspension.
can someone remind me if battey was penalized at all?
can someone remind me if battey was penalized at all?
is it critical whether it's intentional? it's a dangerous play. swinging your elbow and making hard contact with the opponent's face has generally been a flagrant 2 regardless of intent (i understand the nomenclature has been changing and varies from college to pros) leading to getting tossed from the game. battey was without question swinging his elbow too close to oscar's face. if you do it intentionally, like punching someone, you get additional penalties, like a suspension.
can someone remind me if battey was penalized at all?
can someone remind me if battey was penalized at all?
02-09-2020, 08:01 PM
No, Da Silva was called for the foul, which was the correct call even though it almost literally added insult to injury. It’s a bang up play where Batty was driving to the basket, Da Silva fouled him to prevent the dunk, and as both were falling Batty was trying to get the Ball and wound up elbowing da Silva.
Obviously very tough situation and I feel horrible for Da Silva, but no way was that intentional.
BC
Obviously very tough situation and I feel horrible for Da Silva, but no way was that intentional.
BC
No, Da Silva was called for the foul, which was the correct call even though it almost literally added insult to injury. It’s a bang up play where Batty was driving to the basket, Da Silva fouled him to prevent the dunk, and as both were falling Batty was trying to get the Ball and wound up elbowing da Silva.
Obviously very tough situation and I feel horrible for Da Silva, but no way was that intentional.
BC
Obviously very tough situation and I feel horrible for Da Silva, but no way was that intentional.
BC
(02-09-2020, 08:01 PM)BostonCard Wrote: No, Da Silva was called for the foul, which was the correct call even though it almost literally added insult to injury. It’s a bang up play where Batty was driving to the basket, Da Silva fouled him to prevent the dunk, and as both were falling Batty was trying to get the Ball and wound up elbowing da Silva.hmmm...in that case imo we have a double foul. blocking on da silva and flagrant on battey (or technical if it occurred after the whistle). trying to get the ball doesn't relieve you of the responsibility to keep your swinging elbows down. to my understanding, swinging your elbow and making hard contact above the defender's shoulders is a flagrant whether or not it's intentional (ie. intended to harm). the game gets dangerous if the refs don't call blows to the head, even inadvertent ones. just as targeting in football doesn't have to be intentional (intended to harm).
Obviously very tough situation and I feel horrible for Da Silva, but no way was that intentional.
BC
(02-09-2020, 08:01 PM)BostonCard Wrote: No, Da Silva was called for the foul, which was the correct call even though it almost literally added insult to injury. It’s a bang up play where Batty was driving to the basket, Da Silva fouled him to prevent the dunk, and as both were falling Batty was trying to get the Ball and wound up elbowing da Silva.hmmm...in that case imo we have a double foul. blocking on da silva and flagrant on battey (or technical if it occurred after the whistle). trying to get the ball doesn't relieve you of the responsibility to keep your swinging elbows down. to my understanding, swinging your elbow and making hard contact above the defender's shoulders is a flagrant whether or not it's intentional (ie. intended to harm). the game gets dangerous if the refs don't call blows to the head, even inadvertent ones. just as targeting in football doesn't have to be intentional (intended to harm).
Obviously very tough situation and I feel horrible for Da Silva, but no way was that intentional.
BC
I agree that there should have been two fouls called . Intention has nothing to do with a flagrant call. I've seen plenty of flagrant calls for players being out of control, swinging their arms around without seeing a defender, etc. Did the refs even review the video? Probably not because Pac-12.
It's two days later, and only just now can I think about this incident without getting extremely upset (down to mildly upset this morning). Hope that da Silva's recovery is going well.
It's two days later, and only just now can I think about this incident without getting extremely upset (down to mildly upset this morning). Hope that da Silva's recovery is going well.
I agree that there should have been two fouls called . Intention has nothing to do with a flagrant call. I've seen plenty of flagrant calls for players being out of control, swinging their arms around without seeing a defender, etc. Did the refs even review the video? Probably not because Pac-12.
It's two days later, and only just now can I think about this incident without getting extremely upset (down to mildly upset this morning). Hope that da Silva's recovery is going well.
It's two days later, and only just now can I think about this incident without getting extremely upset (down to mildly upset this morning). Hope that da Silva's recovery is going well.
02-10-2020, 11:25 AM
I actually thought Battey might have earned the flagrant early in the sequence. When Oscar stripped the ball, Battey continued up with his right arm and his forearm connects with Oscar's jaw. He then lands on him with his left forearm, driving his head into the floor. One reason it did is that Oscar's head was recoiling from the forearm contact, I think - he was straight up and down, he recoils from the forearm to his right, and then Battey lands on him.
VG
VG
I actually thought Battey might have earned the flagrant early in the sequence. When Oscar stripped the ball, Battey continued up with his right arm and his forearm connects with Oscar's jaw. He then lands on him with his left forearm, driving his head into the floor. One reason it did is that Oscar's head was recoiling from the forearm contact, I think - he was straight up and down, he recoils from the forearm to his right, and then Battey lands on him.
VG
VG
(02-10-2020, 11:25 AM)Viking_Guy Wrote: I actually thought Battey might have earned the flagrant early in the sequence. When Oscar stripped the ball, Battey continued up with his right arm and his forearm connects with Oscar's jaw. He then lands on him with his left forearm, driving his head into the floor. One reason it did is that Oscar's head was recoiling from the forearm contact, I think - he was straight up and down, he recoils from the forearm to his right, and then Battey lands on him.
VG
I basically agree with this take - two fouls were in order.
And while I don't think anyone believes the kid wanted to hurt Oscar, there is no doubt that Colorado's entire team was frustrated at that point in the game, losing by double-digits at home to the Cardinal. When you play with extra aggression - especially when born of frustration - bad, injurious things can happen, even if you may not intend the specific result that occurred. And again, I don't think anyone is suggesting that Battey wanted to turn out Da Silva's lights with a head pound into the floor.
So I guess I'm somewhere between lex and Marty on this one . . .
(02-10-2020, 11:25 AM)Viking_Guy Wrote: I actually thought Battey might have earned the flagrant early in the sequence. When Oscar stripped the ball, Battey continued up with his right arm and his forearm connects with Oscar's jaw. He then lands on him with his left forearm, driving his head into the floor. One reason it did is that Oscar's head was recoiling from the forearm contact, I think - he was straight up and down, he recoils from the forearm to his right, and then Battey lands on him.
VG
I basically agree with this take - two fouls were in order.
And while I don't think anyone believes the kid wanted to hurt Oscar, there is no doubt that Colorado's entire team was frustrated at that point in the game, losing by double-digits at home to the Cardinal. When you play with extra aggression - especially when born of frustration - bad, injurious things can happen, even if you may not intend the specific result that occurred. And again, I don't think anyone is suggesting that Battey wanted to turn out Da Silva's lights with a head pound into the floor.
So I guess I'm somewhere between lex and Marty on this one . . .
02-10-2020, 12:53 PM
(02-10-2020, 12:03 PM)teejers1 Wrote: And while I don't think anyone believes the kid wanted to hurt Oscar, there is no doubt that Colorado's entire team was frustrated at that point in the game, losing by double-digits at home to the Cardinal. When you play with extra aggression - especially when born of frustration - bad, injurious things can happen, even if you may not intend the specific result that occurred. And again, I don't think anyone is suggesting that Battey wanted to turn out Da Silva's lights with a head pound into the floor.
I see two players playing hard. The player on defense doesn't give up a free bucket: he's trying to square up and take a charge, with his arms up to block a shot. The player on offense is determined to get to the hoop, going for the layup and then trying to keep the ball in bounds when it comes loose.
This is pure speculation, but if I had to guess what Haase said in that mixed-team huddle, it would be "keep playing hard, don't anyone back off."
(02-10-2020, 12:03 PM)teejers1 Wrote: And while I don't think anyone believes the kid wanted to hurt Oscar, there is no doubt that Colorado's entire team was frustrated at that point in the game, losing by double-digits at home to the Cardinal. When you play with extra aggression - especially when born of frustration - bad, injurious things can happen, even if you may not intend the specific result that occurred. And again, I don't think anyone is suggesting that Battey wanted to turn out Da Silva's lights with a head pound into the floor.
I see two players playing hard. The player on defense doesn't give up a free bucket: he's trying to square up and take a charge, with his arms up to block a shot. The player on offense is determined to get to the hoop, going for the layup and then trying to keep the ball in bounds when it comes loose.
This is pure speculation, but if I had to guess what Haase said in that mixed-team huddle, it would be "keep playing hard, don't anyone back off."
02-10-2020, 01:23 PM
(02-10-2020, 12:53 PM)shakrat Wrote: This is pure speculation, but if I had to guess what Haase said in that mixed-team huddle, it would be "keep playing hard, don't anyone back off."
You're probably right about that.
Unfortunately, the Colorado players seemed to have listened a little better than our guys... Especially, Battey.
(02-10-2020, 12:53 PM)shakrat Wrote: This is pure speculation, but if I had to guess what Haase said in that mixed-team huddle, it would be "keep playing hard, don't anyone back off."
You're probably right about that.
Unfortunately, the Colorado players seemed to have listened a little better than our guys... Especially, Battey.
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