[BostonCard]

Should Trump get credit for something any American president would do?

His supporters believe that he shouldn't get the blame for COVID-19 since that would have happened to any other president.  Ultimately, I have no idea what would have happened under a President Clinton or a President Rubio, so I have to give him credit for the things he does that result in good outcomes and blame for the things he does (or doesn't do) that result in bad outcomes.

BC

[BostonCard]

Should Trump get credit for something any American president would do?

His supporters believe that he shouldn't get the blame for COVID-19 since that would have happened to any other president.  Ultimately, I have no idea what would have happened under a President Clinton or a President Rubio, so I have to give him credit for the things he does that result in good outcomes and blame for the things he does (or doesn't do) that result in bad outcomes.

BC

[oregontim]

Should Trump get credit for something any American president would do?

His supporters believe that he shouldn't get the blame for COVID-19 since that would have happened to any other president.  Ultimately, I have no idea what would have happened under a President Clinton or a President Rubio, so I have to give him credit for the things he does that result in good outcomes and blame for the things he does (or doesn't do) that result in bad outcomes.

BC

I've been using some simple math: if we have 4% of the world's population, and 20% of it's Covid deaths, then it seems reasonable to say we have five times (20/4) more Covid deaths than we would have had with rest-of-the-world level of national response. One fifth of our 210K Covid deaths would be 42K. I blame Trump for 210K-42K, so 168K.

Of course I realize that's over simplification. And it's cheating to give what seems like an exact number, 168K, for what is a collection of estimates and assumptions that could really be better stated as "about 150K" or "more than 100K."

The key underlying assumption here is that the criminal negligence of the executive branch of the federal government, which is all about the difference between Donald Trump and any other president we've ever had or (I fondly hope) will have, is to blame for our national failure.

And as I write this, he keeps proving my point. He's now telling everybody to stop worrying about it and ignore it. From the bully pulpit of the white house.

[oregontim]

Should Trump get credit for something any American president would do?

His supporters believe that he shouldn't get the blame for COVID-19 since that would have happened to any other president.  Ultimately, I have no idea what would have happened under a President Clinton or a President Rubio, so I have to give him credit for the things he does that result in good outcomes and blame for the things he does (or doesn't do) that result in bad outcomes.

BC

I've been using some simple math: if we have 4% of the world's population, and 20% of it's Covid deaths, then it seems reasonable to say we have five times (20/4) more Covid deaths than we would have had with rest-of-the-world level of national response. One fifth of our 210K Covid deaths would be 42K. I blame Trump for 210K-42K, so 168K.

Of course I realize that's over simplification. And it's cheating to give what seems like an exact number, 168K, for what is a collection of estimates and assumptions that could really be better stated as "about 150K" or "more than 100K."

The key underlying assumption here is that the criminal negligence of the executive branch of the federal government, which is all about the difference between Donald Trump and any other president we've ever had or (I fondly hope) will have, is to blame for our national failure.

And as I write this, he keeps proving my point. He's now telling everybody to stop worrying about it and ignore it. From the bully pulpit of the white house.

[Goose]

I've been using some simple math: if we have 4% of the world's population, and 20% of it's Covid deaths, then it seems reasonable to say we have five times (20/4) more Covid deaths than we would have had with rest-of-the-world level of national response. One fifth of our 210K Covid deaths would be 42K. I blame Trump for 210K-42K, so 168K.



Of course I realize that's over simplification. And it's cheating to give what seems like an exact number, 168K, for what is a collection of estimates and assumptions that could really be better stated as "about 150K" or "more than 100K."

I think it is much more than an "oversimplification". It requires that all of the world is homogeneous, all peoples are the same, all countries are identical in every way ... Clearly not true. It also requires that EVERYTHING involving Covid-19 deaths is driven and controlled solely by the POTUS, which is also clearly not true.

One could in fact argue that the USA should have advantages in fighting Covid-19 over other nations, because we have a stronger economy, more scientists etc. I think there is plenty to blame Trump for, but let's not go into areas that require assumptions that we know are incorrect.

[Goose]

I've been using some simple math: if we have 4% of the world's population, and 20% of it's Covid deaths, then it seems reasonable to say we have five times (20/4) more Covid deaths than we would have had with rest-of-the-world level of national response. One fifth of our 210K Covid deaths would be 42K. I blame Trump for 210K-42K, so 168K.



Of course I realize that's over simplification. And it's cheating to give what seems like an exact number, 168K, for what is a collection of estimates and assumptions that could really be better stated as "about 150K" or "more than 100K."

I think it is much more than an "oversimplification". It requires that all of the world is homogeneous, all peoples are the same, all countries are identical in every way ... Clearly not true. It also requires that EVERYTHING involving Covid-19 deaths is driven and controlled solely by the POTUS, which is also clearly not true.

One could in fact argue that the USA should have advantages in fighting Covid-19 over other nations, because we have a stronger economy, more scientists etc. I think there is plenty to blame Trump for, but let's not go into areas that require assumptions that we know are incorrect.

[Genuine Realist]

I've been using some simple math: if we have 4% of the world's population, and 20% of it's Covid deaths, then it seems reasonable to say we have five times (20/4) more Covid deaths than we would have had with rest-of-the-world level of national response. One fifth of our 210K Covid deaths would be 42K. I blame Trump for 210K-42K, so 168K.



Of course I realize that's over simplification. And it's cheating to give what seems like an exact number, 168K, for what is a collection of estimates and assumptions that could really be better stated as "about 150K" or "more than 100K."

I think it is much more than an "oversimplification". It requires that all of the world is homogeneous, all peoples are the same, all countries are identical in every way ... Clearly not true. It also requires that EVERYTHING involving Covid-19 deaths is driven and controlled solely by the POTUS, which is also clearly not true.

One could in fact argue that the USA should have advantages in fighting Covid-19 over other nations, because we have a stronger economy, more scientists etc. I think there is plenty to blame Trump for, but let's not go into areas that require assumptions that we know are incorrect.

Trump should be promoting confidence in the good faith and ultimate success of Western medical science. But there's no question there have been a fair number of stops and starts, and some governmental overkill. The mask-and-six-feet regimen seems to work, but it took some time to get there. I notice emphasis on fomites has fallen off, not many gloves any longer, though lots of hand sanitizer.

The bottom line is that this is a federation of States, which authority (by design) spread out over a vast number of States and entities. Biden in his recent town meeting on NBC emphasized his intention to rely on the good sense and judgment of the 50 governors. As a matter of practical fact, that's pretty much what has happened since March.

The point? It's tough to make much sense of the national statistics of the US. Too much diversity. New York, Michigan, and California have completely different responses to the pandemic.

[Genuine Realist]

I've been using some simple math: if we have 4% of the world's population, and 20% of it's Covid deaths, then it seems reasonable to say we have five times (20/4) more Covid deaths than we would have had with rest-of-the-world level of national response. One fifth of our 210K Covid deaths would be 42K. I blame Trump for 210K-42K, so 168K.



Of course I realize that's over simplification. And it's cheating to give what seems like an exact number, 168K, for what is a collection of estimates and assumptions that could really be better stated as "about 150K" or "more than 100K."

I think it is much more than an "oversimplification". It requires that all of the world is homogeneous, all peoples are the same, all countries are identical in every way ... Clearly not true. It also requires that EVERYTHING involving Covid-19 deaths is driven and controlled solely by the POTUS, which is also clearly not true.

One could in fact argue that the USA should have advantages in fighting Covid-19 over other nations, because we have a stronger economy, more scientists etc. I think there is plenty to blame Trump for, but let's not go into areas that require assumptions that we know are incorrect.

Trump should be promoting confidence in the good faith and ultimate success of Western medical science. But there's no question there have been a fair number of stops and starts, and some governmental overkill. The mask-and-six-feet regimen seems to work, but it took some time to get there. I notice emphasis on fomites has fallen off, not many gloves any longer, though lots of hand sanitizer.

The bottom line is that this is a federation of States, which authority (by design) spread out over a vast number of States and entities. Biden in his recent town meeting on NBC emphasized his intention to rely on the good sense and judgment of the 50 governors. As a matter of practical fact, that's pretty much what has happened since March.

The point? It's tough to make much sense of the national statistics of the US. Too much diversity. New York, Michigan, and California have completely different responses to the pandemic.

[Mick]

Should Trump get credit for something any American president would do?

I think any American president should get credit for something positive that any American president would do.

---

I've been using some simple math: if we have 4% of the world's population, and 20% of it's Covid deaths, then it seems reasonable to say we have five times (20/4) more Covid deaths than we would have had with rest-of-the-world level of national response. One fifth of our 210K Covid deaths would be 42K. I blame Trump for 210K-42K, so 168K.



Of course I realize that's over simplification. And it's cheating to give what seems like an exact number, 168K, for what is a collection of estimates and assumptions that could really be better stated as "about 150K" or "more than 100K."

I think it is much more than an "oversimplification". It requires that all of the world is homogeneous, all peoples are the same, all countries are identical in every way ... Clearly not true. It also requires that EVERYTHING involving Covid-19 deaths is driven and controlled solely by the POTUS, which is also clearly not true.

One could in fact argue that the USA should have advantages in fighting Covid-19 over other nations, because we have a stronger economy, more scientists etc. I think there is plenty to blame Trump for, but let's not go into areas that require assumptions that we know are incorrect.

I think we have a number of natural national attributes that work against us in fighting COVID-19 over and above our political system and specific politicians, particularly our nationwide obsession with the primacy of the individual over the group.  We're the only nation that doesn't think of the American cowboy myth as a pejorative.  It's one attribute that cuts across race, gender and creed in merica.  Each one of us thinks we're the most bitchin' thing on wheels, and we don't need to pay attention to rules, laws or guidelines if we don't want to do so.

Let's also throw into the mix that Americans are particularly unhealthy.  Every time I think of our COVID death statistics I think of the fact that we have the highest number of obese and diabetic people in the world, by a considerable margin.  Our comorbidity factor is off the charts.

And finally, let's throw into the mix our political disunity, our tendency to negate the opinions of people who disagree with us, which has become much worse since the Internet, and has exacerbated general societal tensions.

Those are just three.  I'm sure there are more.

[Mick]

Should Trump get credit for something any American president would do?

I think any American president should get credit for something positive that any American president would do.

---

I've been using some simple math: if we have 4% of the world's population, and 20% of it's Covid deaths, then it seems reasonable to say we have five times (20/4) more Covid deaths than we would have had with rest-of-the-world level of national response. One fifth of our 210K Covid deaths would be 42K. I blame Trump for 210K-42K, so 168K.



Of course I realize that's over simplification. And it's cheating to give what seems like an exact number, 168K, for what is a collection of estimates and assumptions that could really be better stated as "about 150K" or "more than 100K."

I think it is much more than an "oversimplification". It requires that all of the world is homogeneous, all peoples are the same, all countries are identical in every way ... Clearly not true. It also requires that EVERYTHING involving Covid-19 deaths is driven and controlled solely by the POTUS, which is also clearly not true.

One could in fact argue that the USA should have advantages in fighting Covid-19 over other nations, because we have a stronger economy, more scientists etc. I think there is plenty to blame Trump for, but let's not go into areas that require assumptions that we know are incorrect.

I think we have a number of natural national attributes that work against us in fighting COVID-19 over and above our political system and specific politicians, particularly our nationwide obsession with the primacy of the individual over the group.  We're the only nation that doesn't think of the American cowboy myth as a pejorative.  It's one attribute that cuts across race, gender and creed in merica.  Each one of us thinks we're the most bitchin' thing on wheels, and we don't need to pay attention to rules, laws or guidelines if we don't want to do so.

Let's also throw into the mix that Americans are particularly unhealthy.  Every time I think of our COVID death statistics I think of the fact that we have the highest number of obese and diabetic people in the world, by a considerable margin.  Our comorbidity factor is off the charts.

And finally, let's throw into the mix our political disunity, our tendency to negate the opinions of people who disagree with us, which has become much worse since the Internet, and has exacerbated general societal tensions.

Those are just three.  I'm sure there are more.

[Goose]

The point? It's tough to make much sense of the national statistics of the US. Too much diversity. New York, Michigan, and California have completely different responses to the pandemic.

Very true. Equally true is the fact they faced completely different epidemics. New York basically had it's entire population penetrated before they even really knew they had a problem. Northern California had a relatively slow ramp-up, but this summer kind of hit a wall in case count. The response was different, as well as the problem being different.

[Goose]

The point? It's tough to make much sense of the national statistics of the US. Too much diversity. New York, Michigan, and California have completely different responses to the pandemic.

Very true. Equally true is the fact they faced completely different epidemics. New York basically had it's entire population penetrated before they even really knew they had a problem. Northern California had a relatively slow ramp-up, but this summer kind of hit a wall in case count. The response was different, as well as the problem being different.

[lex24]

[quote="lex24" pid='292668' dateline='1601956720']
What did you expect?  Basically what he said was not to let Covid dominate your life, don’t be afraid we have great Drs and we are going to beat this.  Would you rather he said:  “This is freaking scary stuff.  Stay in your room and hide. Otherwise your f—-ed.  I had the best care in the world or I’d have died. We are doomed.”

Seriously.  It’s not as if he came out, said it’s a walk in the park, let’s open up the stadiums and party.

Those are really the only alternatives you see?
[quote)

I was trying to make a point.  Which, of course, you know.    

Trump deserves a lot of (most) the criticism he gets.  But it’s over the top at times.  I think the comments regarding his statement leaving the hospital is one of those times.  Thus, my comment.

I really don't get your point. Trump really did try to make it sound like it's no big deal, just go out and do stuff. He really did rip off his mask while gasping for air and swaying like his head was spinning and then  go in close proximity to a bunch of people. I don't get the compulsion to constantly defend this creep and attack anyone that looks crosswise at him.

If you are suggesting I “constantly defend” Trump, you are wrong. I can’t stand the guy.  (Nor have I “attacked” anyone. ) I just don’t blame all the countries problems on him.....  And I think the Trump as the anti-Christ bit is over the top.

[lex24]

[quote="lex24" pid='292668' dateline='1601956720']
What did you expect?  Basically what he said was not to let Covid dominate your life, don’t be afraid we have great Drs and we are going to beat this.  Would you rather he said:  “This is freaking scary stuff.  Stay in your room and hide. Otherwise your f—-ed.  I had the best care in the world or I’d have died. We are doomed.”

Seriously.  It’s not as if he came out, said it’s a walk in the park, let’s open up the stadiums and party.

Those are really the only alternatives you see?
[quote)

I was trying to make a point.  Which, of course, you know.    

Trump deserves a lot of (most) the criticism he gets.  But it’s over the top at times.  I think the comments regarding his statement leaving the hospital is one of those times.  Thus, my comment.

I really don't get your point. Trump really did try to make it sound like it's no big deal, just go out and do stuff. He really did rip off his mask while gasping for air and swaying like his head was spinning and then  go in close proximity to a bunch of people. I don't get the compulsion to constantly defend this creep and attack anyone that looks crosswise at him.

If you are suggesting I “constantly defend” Trump, you are wrong. I can’t stand the guy.  (Nor have I “attacked” anyone. ) I just don’t blame all the countries problems on him.....  And I think the Trump as the anti-Christ bit is over the top.

[Hurlburt88]

Question on the Regeneron treatment:  I have seen it referred to both as monoclonal antibodies and polyclonal antibodies.   WHich is correct?   and if there is a reference on the difference, I'd be curious.

[Hurlburt88]

Question on the Regeneron treatment:  I have seen it referred to both as monoclonal antibodies and polyclonal antibodies.   WHich is correct?   and if there is a reference on the difference, I'd be curious.

[BostonCard]

Question on the Regeneron treatment:  I have seen it referred to both as monoclonal antibodies and polyclonal antibodies.   WHich is correct?   and if there is a reference on the difference, I'd be curious.

It is a cocktail of two monoclonal antibodies (probably the reason for the confusion).  "Polyclonal" antibodies are unselected; they are roughly what you get from convalescent plasma, but the downside is that it is a very inefficient process.  There are companies that have engineered large animals (horses, for example) to create human-like antibodies when injected with a relevant antigen.  These can then be harvested and purified, and don't require volunteers.

Monoclonal antibodies are selected by finding the individual antibodies that have a high binding affinity to the virus and are neutralizing (can prevent the virus from entering cells).  Regeneron selected two monoclonal antibodies, which decreases the chance that the virus develops resistance by mutating one of the amino acids at the antibody binding site.

BC

[BostonCard]

Question on the Regeneron treatment:  I have seen it referred to both as monoclonal antibodies and polyclonal antibodies.   WHich is correct?   and if there is a reference on the difference, I'd be curious.

It is a cocktail of two monoclonal antibodies (probably the reason for the confusion).  "Polyclonal" antibodies are unselected; they are roughly what you get from convalescent plasma, but the downside is that it is a very inefficient process.  There are companies that have engineered large animals (horses, for example) to create human-like antibodies when injected with a relevant antigen.  These can then be harvested and purified, and don't require volunteers.

Monoclonal antibodies are selected by finding the individual antibodies that have a high binding affinity to the virus and are neutralizing (can prevent the virus from entering cells).  Regeneron selected two monoclonal antibodies, which decreases the chance that the virus develops resistance by mutating one of the amino acids at the antibody binding site.

BC

[magnus]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1311892190680014849?s=20[/tweet]

BC

Yesterday, Trump's doctor cleared Trump as no longer infectious even though he may not have had a negative test.  

https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/10/politics/...index.html

He also said Trump is 10 days out since first symptoms.  

10 days from yesterday was last Wednesday.  2 days before his positive test.   And 1 day before Hicks was feeling unwell.   Also matches the 72 hours comment that the doctor made the previous Saturday (which he later walked back).

There doesn't appear to be as much uproar in the MSM about this confirmation that Trump was indeed unwell prior to Friday (compared to the 72 hour remark).  Odd.  Trump Covid fatigue?  Or is my math off?  Or am i paying too much attention to the NFL?

[magnus]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1311892190680014849?s=20[/tweet]

BC

Yesterday, Trump's doctor cleared Trump as no longer infectious even though he may not have had a negative test.  

https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/10/politics/...index.html

He also said Trump is 10 days out since first symptoms.  

10 days from yesterday was last Wednesday.  2 days before his positive test.   And 1 day before Hicks was feeling unwell.   Also matches the 72 hours comment that the doctor made the previous Saturday (which he later walked back).

There doesn't appear to be as much uproar in the MSM about this confirmation that Trump was indeed unwell prior to Friday (compared to the 72 hour remark).  Odd.  Trump Covid fatigue?  Or is my math off?  Or am i paying too much attention to the NFL?

[BostonCard]

The title here says it all:

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/11...use-428533

"Amateur Hour at the White House"

BC

[BostonCard]

The title here says it all:

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/11...use-428533

"Amateur Hour at the White House"

BC

[M T]

He also said Trump is 10 days out since first symptoms.  

10 days from yesterday was last Wednesday.  2 days before his positive test.   And 1 day before Hicks was feeling unwell.   Also matches the 72 hours comment that the doctor made the previous Saturday (which he later walked back).

There doesn't appear to be as much uproar in the MSM about this confirmation that Trump was indeed unwell prior to Friday (compared to the 72 hour remark).  Odd.  Trump Covid fatigue?  Or is my math off?  Or am i paying too much attention to the NFL?

I thought I'd point out that symptoms can include headache or diarrhea or fatigue or other things that we all hope won't cause a panic if someone shows up with them.  I'm not aware that the President's symptoms have been announced.  If he had a significant fever or the dry cough, that's one thing.  If he had a minor fever or a headache, that's another.

[M T]

He also said Trump is 10 days out since first symptoms.  

10 days from yesterday was last Wednesday.  2 days before his positive test.   And 1 day before Hicks was feeling unwell.   Also matches the 72 hours comment that the doctor made the previous Saturday (which he later walked back).

There doesn't appear to be as much uproar in the MSM about this confirmation that Trump was indeed unwell prior to Friday (compared to the 72 hour remark).  Odd.  Trump Covid fatigue?  Or is my math off?  Or am i paying too much attention to the NFL?

I thought I'd point out that symptoms can include headache or diarrhea or fatigue or other things that we all hope won't cause a panic if someone shows up with them.  I'm not aware that the President's symptoms have been announced.  If he had a significant fever or the dry cough, that's one thing.  If he had a minor fever or a headache, that's another.

[murky]

He also said Trump is 10 days out since first symptoms.  

10 days from yesterday was last Wednesday.  2 days before his positive test.   And 1 day before Hicks was feeling unwell.   Also matches the 72 hours comment that the doctor made the previous Saturday (which he later walked back).

There doesn't appear to be as much uproar in the MSM about this confirmation that Trump was indeed unwell prior to Friday (compared to the 72 hour remark).  Odd.  Trump Covid fatigue?  Or is my math off?  Or am i paying too much attention to the NFL?

I thought I'd point out that symptoms can include headache or diarrhea or fatigue or other things that we all hope won't cause a panic if someone shows up with them.  I'm not aware that the President's symptoms have been announced.  If he had a significant fever or the dry cough, that's one thing.  If he had a minor fever or a headache, that's another.

A few weeks ago I had a headache, an itchy throat not sure I'd characterize as sore, and occasionally would voluntarily cough (like to gauge how my throat was feeling).  I found it very awkward to decide how to behave and what to do with myself and my household.  

Fortunately we're all working/schooling from home, although I can go into work if I need to and had been about once a week.

I described my symptoms to my doctor via web portal messages.  They were intercepted by some level of advice nurse or something and couldn't get an answer as to whether my symptoms were consistent with Covid.

I went to the Dr. the next morning.  He thought my symptoms upon exam pointed to viral infection so I got a rapid Covid test on the spot.

Came back negative for Covid within 24 hours, maybe 12, can't remember.  I'm still a little surprised I was able to contract a virus while taking measures against Covid, although I suppose it could be some latent virus that reasserts itself from time to time but not destructive enough to get attention.

It's the sort of thing in a normal year I would have mostly ignored, maybe tried to get a little more sleep, ensure hydration, and reduce exertion.

This is my rambling way of saying that Covid has a long list of symptoms, and most of them people experience often when they are not sick.  I

[murky]

He also said Trump is 10 days out since first symptoms.  

10 days from yesterday was last Wednesday.  2 days before his positive test.   And 1 day before Hicks was feeling unwell.   Also matches the 72 hours comment that the doctor made the previous Saturday (which he later walked back).

There doesn't appear to be as much uproar in the MSM about this confirmation that Trump was indeed unwell prior to Friday (compared to the 72 hour remark).  Odd.  Trump Covid fatigue?  Or is my math off?  Or am i paying too much attention to the NFL?

I thought I'd point out that symptoms can include headache or diarrhea or fatigue or other things that we all hope won't cause a panic if someone shows up with them.  I'm not aware that the President's symptoms have been announced.  If he had a significant fever or the dry cough, that's one thing.  If he had a minor fever or a headache, that's another.

A few weeks ago I had a headache, an itchy throat not sure I'd characterize as sore, and occasionally would voluntarily cough (like to gauge how my throat was feeling).  I found it very awkward to decide how to behave and what to do with myself and my household.  

Fortunately we're all working/schooling from home, although I can go into work if I need to and had been about once a week.

I described my symptoms to my doctor via web portal messages.  They were intercepted by some level of advice nurse or something and couldn't get an answer as to whether my symptoms were consistent with Covid.

I went to the Dr. the next morning.  He thought my symptoms upon exam pointed to viral infection so I got a rapid Covid test on the spot.

Came back negative for Covid within 24 hours, maybe 12, can't remember.  I'm still a little surprised I was able to contract a virus while taking measures against Covid, although I suppose it could be some latent virus that reasserts itself from time to time but not destructive enough to get attention.

It's the sort of thing in a normal year I would have mostly ignored, maybe tried to get a little more sleep, ensure hydration, and reduce exertion.

This is my rambling way of saying that Covid has a long list of symptoms, and most of them people experience often when they are not sick.  I

[dabigv13]

NZ has seen a brobdingnagian decline in flu cases, but pretty normal levels of other upper respiratory tract viruses.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programme...o-lockdown

[dabigv13]

NZ has seen a brobdingnagian decline in flu cases, but pretty normal levels of other upper respiratory tract viruses.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programme...o-lockdown