[BostonCard]

https://www.businessinsider.com/sweden-s...rs-2020-10

It doesn't appear that they are moving towards a lockdown; localities are being given the power to "strongly recommend people to avoid public transport, busy public places, and contact with the vulnerable and elderly."

Which, I mean, if they weren't doing before, then the Swedish government was truly negligent.  It is one thing to say, "everyone use your own judgment"; it's another thing to not even make recommendations.

BC

[BostonCard]

https://www.businessinsider.com/sweden-s...rs-2020-10

It doesn't appear that they are moving towards a lockdown; localities are being given the power to "strongly recommend people to avoid public transport, busy public places, and contact with the vulnerable and elderly."

Which, I mean, if they weren't doing before, then the Swedish government was truly negligent.  It is one thing to say, "everyone use your own judgment"; it's another thing to not even make recommendations.

BC

[BostonCard]

Don't want to dunk on Sweden again, but again worth noting the discrepancy between Sweden and its Nordic neighbors.

https://www.businessinsider.com/sweden-c...gy-2020-12

They are averaging about 5000 cases and 50 deaths a day for a population of 10 million (500 cases and 5 deaths daily per million).
Finland is averaging 500 cases a day and 3 deaths a day for a population half as large (100 cases and <1 death daily per million).
Norway is at around 600 cases a day and 4 deaths a day for a population of about 5 million (120 cases and ~1 death daily per million).

And it is not even that Sweden doesn't have a lockdown; because of the severity of the pandemic it has had to impose a modified lockdown.  The difference is that by letting the virus circulate at higher levels, when the winter surge came it started at a higher base than in the other countries, so it has risen earlier and faster.

The point is not the level of restrictions but the ability to act decisively early and suppress circulating cases to low levels so that when the inevitable second wave happens (and it is happening in all these countries), it doesn't spiral out of control as easily.

BC

[BostonCard]

Don't want to dunk on Sweden again, but again worth noting the discrepancy between Sweden and its Nordic neighbors.

https://www.businessinsider.com/sweden-c...gy-2020-12

They are averaging about 5000 cases and 50 deaths a day for a population of 10 million (500 cases and 5 deaths daily per million).
Finland is averaging 500 cases a day and 3 deaths a day for a population half as large (100 cases and <1 death daily per million).
Norway is at around 600 cases a day and 4 deaths a day for a population of about 5 million (120 cases and ~1 death daily per million).

And it is not even that Sweden doesn't have a lockdown; because of the severity of the pandemic it has had to impose a modified lockdown.  The difference is that by letting the virus circulate at higher levels, when the winter surge came it started at a higher base than in the other countries, so it has risen earlier and faster.

The point is not the level of restrictions but the ability to act decisively early and suppress circulating cases to low levels so that when the inevitable second wave happens (and it is happening in all these countries), it doesn't spiral out of control as easily.

BC

[Bruce Wang]

The network effected negative externalities of this pandemic justify strong government action.  It's perplexing that a society with such supposed socialist tendencies would adopt a market fundamentalist approach.  I can understand 'Murica adopting such a stand, but Sweden?!?!?

[Bruce Wang]

The network effected negative externalities of this pandemic justify strong government action.  It's perplexing that a society with such supposed socialist tendencies would adopt a market fundamentalist approach.  I can understand 'Murica adopting such a stand, but Sweden?!?!?

[Goose]

The point is not the level of restrictions but the ability to act decisively early and suppress circulating cases to low levels so that when the inevitable second wave happens (and it is happening in all these countries), it doesn't spiral out of control as easily.


BC

This has been the point all along that just didn't sink in in many places (such as the USA). It is a lot easier to control a low level of disease than a high level of disease.

[Goose]

The point is not the level of restrictions but the ability to act decisively early and suppress circulating cases to low levels so that when the inevitable second wave happens (and it is happening in all these countries), it doesn't spiral out of control as easily.


BC

This has been the point all along that just didn't sink in in many places (such as the USA). It is a lot easier to control a low level of disease than a high level of disease.

[BostonCard]

https://www.ft.com/content/81299a7a-ec53...a40f4bca07

99% of its ICU beds are full, and now Sweden has the indignity of watching its neighbors offer to help it out.  This meme has been played out, but it still hurts:

[tweet]https://twitter.com/ObsoleteDogma/status/1338344726144102401?s=20[/tweet]

BC

[BostonCard]

https://www.ft.com/content/81299a7a-ec53...a40f4bca07

99% of its ICU beds are full, and now Sweden has the indignity of watching its neighbors offer to help it out.  This meme has been played out, but it still hurts:

[tweet]https://twitter.com/ObsoleteDogma/status/1338344726144102401?s=20[/tweet]

BC

[DocSavage87]

https://www.ft.com/content/81299a7a-ec53...a40f4bca07

99% of its ICU beds are full, and now Sweden has the indignity of watching its neighbors offer to help it out.  This meme has been played out, but it still hurts:

[tweet]https://twitter.com/ObsoleteDogma/status/1338344726144102401?s=20[/tweet]

BC

I had read earlier in the pandemic (when investigating some data a Sweden-touting friend had posted) that Sweden doesn't even send patients to the ICU if they are beyond a cutoff BMI or age.  Can't seem to find those ICU criteria now via Google.  I'm wondering if that 99% ICU capacity figure also impacts how they triage to the ICU based on BMI/age/etc.

[DocSavage87]

https://www.ft.com/content/81299a7a-ec53...a40f4bca07

99% of its ICU beds are full, and now Sweden has the indignity of watching its neighbors offer to help it out.  This meme has been played out, but it still hurts:

[tweet]https://twitter.com/ObsoleteDogma/status/1338344726144102401?s=20[/tweet]

BC

I had read earlier in the pandemic (when investigating some data a Sweden-touting friend had posted) that Sweden doesn't even send patients to the ICU if they are beyond a cutoff BMI or age.  Can't seem to find those ICU criteria now via Google.  I'm wondering if that 99% ICU capacity figure also impacts how they triage to the ICU based on BMI/age/etc.

[M T]

I really prefer looking at official or authoritative sources rather than some tweet by someone whose agenda is unknown to me.

I believe these are Sweden's numbers on people in the  ICU.  Whether the ICUs are full or not, I can't say, but the absolute numbers appear about half of what they were in April & May.  (Stats from earlier in the year)

The only specific things I found on guidelines for triage were in a news outlet that was putting things in their own light.  It appears the guidelines were updated between March 19 and March 29.

[M T]

I really prefer looking at official or authoritative sources rather than some tweet by someone whose agenda is unknown to me.

I believe these are Sweden's numbers on people in the  ICU.  Whether the ICUs are full or not, I can't say, but the absolute numbers appear about half of what they were in April & May.  (Stats from earlier in the year)

The only specific things I found on guidelines for triage were in a news outlet that was putting things in their own light.  It appears the guidelines were updated between March 19 and March 29.

[BostonCard]

It's a tweet, but I did also include a link to the Financial Times, which is a fairly reputable news organization (doesn't mean they are correct here, but they are more authoritative than some rando with an unknown agenda.

It quotes Stockjolm's director of healthcare:

Bjorn Eriksson, Stockholm’s director of healthcare, said this week that the region had only one intensive care bed vacant. “It cannot be worth this for after-work drinks, to do Christmas shopping or meet people outside your household. The consequences are awful.”

On top of that there is this news segment from Sweden

https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/7620855

The segment is in English.

BC

[BostonCard]

It's a tweet, but I did also include a link to the Financial Times, which is a fairly reputable news organization (doesn't mean they are correct here, but they are more authoritative than some rando with an unknown agenda.

It quotes Stockjolm's director of healthcare:

Bjorn Eriksson, Stockholm’s director of healthcare, said this week that the region had only one intensive care bed vacant. “It cannot be worth this for after-work drinks, to do Christmas shopping or meet people outside your household. The consequences are awful.”

On top of that there is this news segment from Sweden

https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/7620855

The segment is in English.

BC

[teejers1]

I really prefer looking at official or authoritative sources rather than some tweet by someone whose agenda is unknown to me.

I believe these are Sweden's numbers on people in the  ICU.  Whether the ICUs are full or not, I can't say, but the absolute numbers appear about half of what they were in April & May.  (Stats from earlier in the year)

The only specific things I found on guidelines for triage were in a news outlet that was putting things in their own light.  It appears the guidelines were updated between March 19 and March 29.

Well, maybe the denominator in beds was adjusted (as was done in SCC).  And maybe that adjustment was warranted.

But irrespective of those hypotheticals, the photo of people shopping or in semi-crowded indoor places without wearing masks is just ridiculous.  I mean . . . c'mon!

P.S. I'm wondering if Sweden has an unspoken Darwinian cultural mindset - if the weak and enfeebled get flushed out of the system, it's nbd.  I mean, what else could explain not wearing masks indoors?  Serious question.  (It's one thing to say we want to keep as many businesses open as possible; quite another to do so without mask wearing).

[teejers1]

I really prefer looking at official or authoritative sources rather than some tweet by someone whose agenda is unknown to me.

I believe these are Sweden's numbers on people in the  ICU.  Whether the ICUs are full or not, I can't say, but the absolute numbers appear about half of what they were in April & May.  (Stats from earlier in the year)

The only specific things I found on guidelines for triage were in a news outlet that was putting things in their own light.  It appears the guidelines were updated between March 19 and March 29.

Well, maybe the denominator in beds was adjusted (as was done in SCC).  And maybe that adjustment was warranted.

But irrespective of those hypotheticals, the photo of people shopping or in semi-crowded indoor places without wearing masks is just ridiculous.  I mean . . . c'mon!

P.S. I'm wondering if Sweden has an unspoken Darwinian cultural mindset - if the weak and enfeebled get flushed out of the system, it's nbd.  I mean, what else could explain not wearing masks indoors?  Serious question.  (It's one thing to say we want to keep as many businesses open as possible; quite another to do so without mask wearing).

[Farm93]

But irrespective of those hypotheticals, the photo of people shopping or in semi-crowded indoor places without wearing masks is just ridiculous.  I mean . . . c'mon!

P.S. I'm wondering if Sweden has an unspoken Darwinian cultural mindset - if the weak and enfeebled get flushed out of the system, it's nbd.  I mean, what else could explain not wearing masks indoors?  Serious question.  (It's one thing to say we want to keep as many businesses open as possible; quite another to do so without mask wearing).

Have you not seen that many places in the USA were doing this very thing until a few weeks ago?
A few states didn't even have mask mandates (outdoor or indoor) until recently.   

In a number of places the companies mandated masks for their employees and because it was best for business.   I would imagine that was also common in Sweden.

There are all kinds of USA citizens doing the..
I am strong.
I am in not old or I am in good health.
Of the oldie...I will leave it up to God's will.

FWIW - inevitably in the USA the good health person is a 5' 10" guy running well above 250 pounds.   I realize in the USA that appears normal, but COVID seems to thrive in that level of BMI.

Luckily for Sweden it is relatively small, so it's neighbors can absorb a good amount of Sweden's issues, especially since Finland and Norway have almost no cases.

[Farm93]

But irrespective of those hypotheticals, the photo of people shopping or in semi-crowded indoor places without wearing masks is just ridiculous.  I mean . . . c'mon!

P.S. I'm wondering if Sweden has an unspoken Darwinian cultural mindset - if the weak and enfeebled get flushed out of the system, it's nbd.  I mean, what else could explain not wearing masks indoors?  Serious question.  (It's one thing to say we want to keep as many businesses open as possible; quite another to do so without mask wearing).

Have you not seen that many places in the USA were doing this very thing until a few weeks ago?
A few states didn't even have mask mandates (outdoor or indoor) until recently.   

In a number of places the companies mandated masks for their employees and because it was best for business.   I would imagine that was also common in Sweden.

There are all kinds of USA citizens doing the..
I am strong.
I am in not old or I am in good health.
Of the oldie...I will leave it up to God's will.

FWIW - inevitably in the USA the good health person is a 5' 10" guy running well above 250 pounds.   I realize in the USA that appears normal, but COVID seems to thrive in that level of BMI.

Luckily for Sweden it is relatively small, so it's neighbors can absorb a good amount of Sweden's issues, especially since Finland and Norway have almost no cases.

[Mick]

I really prefer looking at official or authoritative sources rather than some tweet by someone whose agenda is unknown to me.

I believe these are Sweden's numbers on people in the  ICU.  Whether the ICUs are full or not, I can't say, but the absolute numbers appear about half of what they were in April & May.  (Stats from earlier in the year)

The only specific things I found on guidelines for triage were in a news outlet that was putting things in their own light.  It appears the guidelines were updated between March 19 and March 29.

Well, maybe the denominator in beds was adjusted (as was done in SCC).  And maybe that adjustment was warranted.

But irrespective of those hypotheticals, the photo of people shopping or in semi-crowded indoor places without wearing masks is just ridiculous.  I mean . . . c'mon!

P.S. I'm wondering if Sweden has an unspoken Darwinian cultural mindset - if the weak and enfeebled get flushed out of the system, it's nbd.  I mean, what else could explain not wearing masks indoors?  Serious question.  (It's one thing to say we want to keep as many businesses open as possible; quite another to do so without mask wearing).

I didn't wonder that about Sweden, but I definitely wondered it about China.

[Mick]

I really prefer looking at official or authoritative sources rather than some tweet by someone whose agenda is unknown to me.

I believe these are Sweden's numbers on people in the  ICU.  Whether the ICUs are full or not, I can't say, but the absolute numbers appear about half of what they were in April & May.  (Stats from earlier in the year)

The only specific things I found on guidelines for triage were in a news outlet that was putting things in their own light.  It appears the guidelines were updated between March 19 and March 29.

Well, maybe the denominator in beds was adjusted (as was done in SCC).  And maybe that adjustment was warranted.

But irrespective of those hypotheticals, the photo of people shopping or in semi-crowded indoor places without wearing masks is just ridiculous.  I mean . . . c'mon!

P.S. I'm wondering if Sweden has an unspoken Darwinian cultural mindset - if the weak and enfeebled get flushed out of the system, it's nbd.  I mean, what else could explain not wearing masks indoors?  Serious question.  (It's one thing to say we want to keep as many businesses open as possible; quite another to do so without mask wearing).

I didn't wonder that about Sweden, but I definitely wondered it about China.