[Genuine Realist]

That would enable some indoor activity, or so I would think, with presentation of the card a sine qua non.

At a Christmas Zoom gathering yesterday, one of my in-laws, a type who is in permanent panic mode ("We'll have to stay locked down until next . . . September") opined that there would be riots and various other types of social dislocation if we did that. 

Nonsense, in my view. The sooner we can begin to restore a decent revenue flow to some of these industries, the better.

[Genuine Realist]

That would enable some indoor activity, or so I would think, with presentation of the card a sine qua non.

At a Christmas Zoom gathering yesterday, one of my in-laws, a type who is in permanent panic mode ("We'll have to stay locked down until next . . . September") opined that there would be riots and various other types of social dislocation if we did that. 

Nonsense, in my view. The sooner we can begin to restore a decent revenue flow to some of these industries, the better.

[BostonCard]

This is going to be rank speculation on my part as the virus is very capricious, and anyone who makes any predictions about the course of the pandemic is almost assured of being wrong, but I suspect we won't see a vaccine ID card, but not for reasons you think.

My guess is that a combination of better weather, emerging immunity, and vaccination of the most vulnerable individuals will mean that we will be able to open up uniformly this spring.  The pandemic won't be over, but it will be improving quickly such that we might see an order of magnitude fewer deaths per day by April and a drastic reduction in hospitalizations.

At that point, activities will be based on individual risk tolerance, so we won't go back to normal, but we will be able to get most industries opened up again.  The only things I could see require some sort of proof of vaccination would be something like cruise ships, where there is a possibility of an outbreak.

BC

[BostonCard]

This is going to be rank speculation on my part as the virus is very capricious, and anyone who makes any predictions about the course of the pandemic is almost assured of being wrong, but I suspect we won't see a vaccine ID card, but not for reasons you think.

My guess is that a combination of better weather, emerging immunity, and vaccination of the most vulnerable individuals will mean that we will be able to open up uniformly this spring.  The pandemic won't be over, but it will be improving quickly such that we might see an order of magnitude fewer deaths per day by April and a drastic reduction in hospitalizations.

At that point, activities will be based on individual risk tolerance, so we won't go back to normal, but we will be able to get most industries opened up again.  The only things I could see require some sort of proof of vaccination would be something like cruise ships, where there is a possibility of an outbreak.

BC

[Genuine Realist]

This is going to be rank speculation on my part as the virus is very capricious, and anyone who makes any predictions about the course of the pandemic is almost assured of being wrong, but I suspect we won't see a vaccine ID card, but not for reasons you think.

My guess is that a combination of better weather, emerging immunity, and vaccination of the most vulnerable individuals will mean that we will be able to open up uniformly this spring.  The pandemic won't be over, but it will be improving quickly such that we might see an order of magnitude fewer deaths per day by April and a drastic reduction in hospitalizations.

At that point, activities will be based on individual risk tolerance, so we won't go back to normal, but we will be able to get most industries opened up again.  The only things I could see require some sort of proof of vaccination would be something like cruise ships, where there is a possibility of an outbreak.

BC

Easy proof of vaccination would certainly make a lot of people feel better about large indoor audiences (theatre and cinema), and airplane travel. 

In both cases, you'd present vaccination proof at the door or before entering the plane.

[Genuine Realist]

This is going to be rank speculation on my part as the virus is very capricious, and anyone who makes any predictions about the course of the pandemic is almost assured of being wrong, but I suspect we won't see a vaccine ID card, but not for reasons you think.

My guess is that a combination of better weather, emerging immunity, and vaccination of the most vulnerable individuals will mean that we will be able to open up uniformly this spring.  The pandemic won't be over, but it will be improving quickly such that we might see an order of magnitude fewer deaths per day by April and a drastic reduction in hospitalizations.

At that point, activities will be based on individual risk tolerance, so we won't go back to normal, but we will be able to get most industries opened up again.  The only things I could see require some sort of proof of vaccination would be something like cruise ships, where there is a possibility of an outbreak.

BC

Easy proof of vaccination would certainly make a lot of people feel better about large indoor audiences (theatre and cinema), and airplane travel. 

In both cases, you'd present vaccination proof at the door or before entering the plane.

[lex24]

What’s next “show us your papers....”.  I won’t go so far as your son-in-law, GR. But I think it’s a very bad idea and one in Americans will not accept.

[lex24]

What’s next “show us your papers....”.  I won’t go so far as your son-in-law, GR. But I think it’s a very bad idea and one in Americans will not accept.

[Genuine Realist]

What’s next “show us your papers....”.  I won’t go so far as your son-in-law, GR. But I think it’s a very bad idea and one in Americans will not accept.

Not my son in law. A different person.

You maybe had some objection to showing your ID to buy beer back in the day? It's exactly the same principle.

[Genuine Realist]

What’s next “show us your papers....”.  I won’t go so far as your son-in-law, GR. But I think it’s a very bad idea and one in Americans will not accept.

Not my son in law. A different person.

You maybe had some objection to showing your ID to buy beer back in the day? It's exactly the same principle.

[BostonCard]

This is going to be rank speculation on my part as the virus is very capricious, and anyone who makes any predictions about the course of the pandemic is almost assured of being wrong, but I suspect we won't see a vaccine ID card, but not for reasons you think.



My guess is that a combination of better weather, emerging immunity, and vaccination of the most vulnerable individuals will mean that we will be able to open up uniformly this spring.  The pandemic won't be over, but it will be improving quickly such that we might see an order of magnitude fewer deaths per day by April and a drastic reduction in hospitalizations.



At that point, activities will be based on individual risk tolerance, so we won't go back to normal, but we will be able to get most industries opened up again.  The only things I could see require some sort of proof of vaccination would be something like cruise ships, where there is a possibility of an outbreak.



BC

Easy proof of vaccination would certainly make a lot of people feel better about large indoor audiences (theatre and cinema), and airplane travel. 



In both cases, you'd present vaccination proof at the door or before entering the plane.

I suppose it depends on what you mean about "a lot of people".  Although vaccines aren't 100% and some people have a reduced response to vaccines, most people who have been vaccinated already probably feel pretty decent about gathering, regardless of whether others have been vaccinated or not.  Obviously, people are going to be at a lot lower risk if everyone around them is vaccinated too, but your average person isn't going to look at it that way.  They will say "I've got the vaccine; I won't get sick even if I'm exposed".  Those who are not vaccinated will be "protected" by not allowing unvaccinated people into the gathering, but of course, that will mean they can't attend either.  So, those who are worried can voluntarily refrain from attending.

Now, on a county or state level, there might be much more of a reason to restrict gatherings that include unvaccinated people in order to prevent outbreaks than on an individual level.  But that gets back to my original point, which is that the pandemic will be moving more quickly (in the right direction) than policy-makers so that by the time someone can roll something like this out, the pandemic will probably be at a place where it is not necessary.

BC

[BostonCard]

This is going to be rank speculation on my part as the virus is very capricious, and anyone who makes any predictions about the course of the pandemic is almost assured of being wrong, but I suspect we won't see a vaccine ID card, but not for reasons you think.



My guess is that a combination of better weather, emerging immunity, and vaccination of the most vulnerable individuals will mean that we will be able to open up uniformly this spring.  The pandemic won't be over, but it will be improving quickly such that we might see an order of magnitude fewer deaths per day by April and a drastic reduction in hospitalizations.



At that point, activities will be based on individual risk tolerance, so we won't go back to normal, but we will be able to get most industries opened up again.  The only things I could see require some sort of proof of vaccination would be something like cruise ships, where there is a possibility of an outbreak.



BC

Easy proof of vaccination would certainly make a lot of people feel better about large indoor audiences (theatre and cinema), and airplane travel. 



In both cases, you'd present vaccination proof at the door or before entering the plane.

I suppose it depends on what you mean about "a lot of people".  Although vaccines aren't 100% and some people have a reduced response to vaccines, most people who have been vaccinated already probably feel pretty decent about gathering, regardless of whether others have been vaccinated or not.  Obviously, people are going to be at a lot lower risk if everyone around them is vaccinated too, but your average person isn't going to look at it that way.  They will say "I've got the vaccine; I won't get sick even if I'm exposed".  Those who are not vaccinated will be "protected" by not allowing unvaccinated people into the gathering, but of course, that will mean they can't attend either.  So, those who are worried can voluntarily refrain from attending.

Now, on a county or state level, there might be much more of a reason to restrict gatherings that include unvaccinated people in order to prevent outbreaks than on an individual level.  But that gets back to my original point, which is that the pandemic will be moving more quickly (in the right direction) than policy-makers so that by the time someone can roll something like this out, the pandemic will probably be at a place where it is not necessary.

BC

[Goose]

Now, on a county or state level, there might be much more of a reason to restrict gatherings that include unvaccinated people in order to prevent outbreaks than on an individual level.  But that gets back to my original point, which is that the pandemic will be moving more quickly (in the right direction) than policy-makers so that by the time someone can roll something like this out, the pandemic will probably be at a place where it is not necessary.


BC

I agree that domestically we will reach the point that "most people" have been vaccinated and therefor it will just be assumed. However I am virtually certain that some kind of a vaccination certification will be a requirement for foreign travel because many nations won't want the disease re-introduced into their country. Some countries may not have enough people vaccinated and others will just be paranoid. In any case, I think some health records will once again become a requirement for foreign travel.

[Goose]

Now, on a county or state level, there might be much more of a reason to restrict gatherings that include unvaccinated people in order to prevent outbreaks than on an individual level.  But that gets back to my original point, which is that the pandemic will be moving more quickly (in the right direction) than policy-makers so that by the time someone can roll something like this out, the pandemic will probably be at a place where it is not necessary.


BC

I agree that domestically we will reach the point that "most people" have been vaccinated and therefor it will just be assumed. However I am virtually certain that some kind of a vaccination certification will be a requirement for foreign travel because many nations won't want the disease re-introduced into their country. Some countries may not have enough people vaccinated and others will just be paranoid. In any case, I think some health records will once again become a requirement for foreign travel.

[M T]

There IS a vaccine card that is part of the current vaccination program.  It will be how you are associated with which vaccine & when you got the first dose and need to get the 2nd dose.

Whether that card or any associated ID on it is associated with any kind of official status of having gotten the vaccine, I don't know.  I believe if I have to have a small pox vaccine to travel somewhere, I have to prove it somehow, but I think it comes from my doctor's office.

[M T]

There IS a vaccine card that is part of the current vaccination program.  It will be how you are associated with which vaccine & when you got the first dose and need to get the 2nd dose.

Whether that card or any associated ID on it is associated with any kind of official status of having gotten the vaccine, I don't know.  I believe if I have to have a small pox vaccine to travel somewhere, I have to prove it somehow, but I think it comes from my doctor's office.

[lex24]

What’s next “show us your papers....”.  I won’t go so far as your son-in-law, GR. But I think it’s a very bad idea and one in Americans will not accept.

Not my son in law. A different person.

You maybe had some objection to showing your ID to buy beer back in the day? It's exactly the same principle.

Sorry, misread the “in-law” part.  As for the alcohol analogy it’s not even close to the same principle.   The former is simply proof that you were old enough to reach the legal limit to purchase a product. The latter if I understand you correctly would be a card that you would have to show to engage in all sorts of activities Dash without any criteria. 

 And what about those with religious opposition? Do they get a first amendment card which shows that they’re not vaccinated but can still hop on an airplane. Bad idea all the way around. 

And just so there’s no misinterpretation of what I’m saying – I’ll be the first guy in line to get vaccinated when it finally trickles down to my group – whatever that might be.

---

There IS a vaccine card that is part of the current vaccination program.  It will be how you are associated with which vaccine & when you got the first dose and need to get the 2nd dose.

Whether that card or any associated ID on it is associated with any kind of official status of having gotten the vaccine, I don't know.  I believe if I have to have a small pox vaccine to travel somewhere, I have to prove it somehow, but I think it comes from my doctor's office.

Pretty sure that’s a different concept. No difficulty with having records showing whether or not I’m  vaccinated.  Having to show some sort of proof of vaccination to engage in every day activities, however, is a completely different thing.

[lex24]

What’s next “show us your papers....”.  I won’t go so far as your son-in-law, GR. But I think it’s a very bad idea and one in Americans will not accept.

Not my son in law. A different person.

You maybe had some objection to showing your ID to buy beer back in the day? It's exactly the same principle.

Sorry, misread the “in-law” part.  As for the alcohol analogy it’s not even close to the same principle.   The former is simply proof that you were old enough to reach the legal limit to purchase a product. The latter if I understand you correctly would be a card that you would have to show to engage in all sorts of activities Dash without any criteria. 

 And what about those with religious opposition? Do they get a first amendment card which shows that they’re not vaccinated but can still hop on an airplane. Bad idea all the way around. 

And just so there’s no misinterpretation of what I’m saying – I’ll be the first guy in line to get vaccinated when it finally trickles down to my group – whatever that might be.

---

There IS a vaccine card that is part of the current vaccination program.  It will be how you are associated with which vaccine & when you got the first dose and need to get the 2nd dose.

Whether that card or any associated ID on it is associated with any kind of official status of having gotten the vaccine, I don't know.  I believe if I have to have a small pox vaccine to travel somewhere, I have to prove it somehow, but I think it comes from my doctor's office.

Pretty sure that’s a different concept. No difficulty with having records showing whether or not I’m  vaccinated.  Having to show some sort of proof of vaccination to engage in every day activities, however, is a completely different thing.

[magnus]

Qantas Airlines will require passengers to have covid vaccinations to travel (haven't read the details so not sure when that would go in effect)

[magnus]

Qantas Airlines will require passengers to have covid vaccinations to travel (haven't read the details so not sure when that would go in effect)

[BostonCard]

Apropos vaccine ID cards, UCSF's medicine Grand Rounds will discuss the ethics of immunity passports.

[b]Department of Medicine Grand Rounds
THURSDAY, DECEMBER 17, 12PM -1:20PM [/b]

Add to My Calendar

[b]Covid-19: The CDC, Vaccine Roll-Out, and Ethics and Policy Issues Surrounding Immunity Passports
Session moderated by Bob Wachter [/b]

The session will be recorded, so I will post the recording once it is available.

BC

[BostonCard]

Apropos vaccine ID cards, UCSF's medicine Grand Rounds will discuss the ethics of immunity passports.

[b]Department of Medicine Grand Rounds
THURSDAY, DECEMBER 17, 12PM -1:20PM [/b]

Add to My Calendar

[b]Covid-19: The CDC, Vaccine Roll-Out, and Ethics and Policy Issues Surrounding Immunity Passports
Session moderated by Bob Wachter [/b]

The session will be recorded, so I will post the recording once it is available.

BC

[teejers1]

Apropos vaccine ID cards, UCSF's medicine Grand Rounds will discuss the ethics of immunity passports.

[b]Department of Medicine Grand Rounds
THURSDAY, DECEMBER 17, 12PM -1:20PM [/b]

Add to My Calendar

[b]Covid-19: The CDC, Vaccine Roll-Out, and Ethics and Policy Issues Surrounding Immunity Passports
Session moderated by Bob Wachter [/b]

The session will be recorded, so I will post the recording once it is available.

BC

Never understood the ethical conundrum of vaccine documentation.  You may have a constitutional right, based on religion, not to be forced to get vaccinated.  There is no constitutional right to fly to Australia or anywhere else internationally.  The question for those countries insisting on it will be "is it worth it" to them to do so.  You theoretically are discouraging tourist and business travel, and that has domestic costs.  If your population is vaccinated, then is that cost "worth it?" becomes the question.

Domestic everyday restrictions - like education - will raise some additional issues, and those will need to be addressed (possibly).  Those passing restrictions will have to show some basis for the restriction, and perhaps a compelling interest.  

But generally speaking, I don't see a problem with vaccination cards or documentation or a vaccine passport.  Of course, I might be the wrong person to ask because I don't see much of a problem requiring voters to show ID of who they are before they vote. I find it both bewildering and a bit amusing at the vehemence by which those on the other side of ID voting mention burden, disenfranchisement, etc.  But that's too political and violates the "rules" in these parts.

[teejers1]

Apropos vaccine ID cards, UCSF's medicine Grand Rounds will discuss the ethics of immunity passports.

[b]Department of Medicine Grand Rounds
THURSDAY, DECEMBER 17, 12PM -1:20PM [/b]

Add to My Calendar

[b]Covid-19: The CDC, Vaccine Roll-Out, and Ethics and Policy Issues Surrounding Immunity Passports
Session moderated by Bob Wachter [/b]

The session will be recorded, so I will post the recording once it is available.

BC

Never understood the ethical conundrum of vaccine documentation.  You may have a constitutional right, based on religion, not to be forced to get vaccinated.  There is no constitutional right to fly to Australia or anywhere else internationally.  The question for those countries insisting on it will be "is it worth it" to them to do so.  You theoretically are discouraging tourist and business travel, and that has domestic costs.  If your population is vaccinated, then is that cost "worth it?" becomes the question.

Domestic everyday restrictions - like education - will raise some additional issues, and those will need to be addressed (possibly).  Those passing restrictions will have to show some basis for the restriction, and perhaps a compelling interest.  

But generally speaking, I don't see a problem with vaccination cards or documentation or a vaccine passport.  Of course, I might be the wrong person to ask because I don't see much of a problem requiring voters to show ID of who they are before they vote. I find it both bewildering and a bit amusing at the vehemence by which those on the other side of ID voting mention burden, disenfranchisement, etc.  But that's too political and violates the "rules" in these parts.

[BostonCard]

I think the conflict may arise when the vaccine is not yet freely available (especially when, inevitably, some people will almost certainly find a way to jump the queue).

I'll be very interested in how the problem is framed, and what the panel considers the most salient considerations.

BC

[BostonCard]

I think the conflict may arise when the vaccine is not yet freely available (especially when, inevitably, some people will almost certainly find a way to jump the queue).

I'll be very interested in how the problem is framed, and what the panel considers the most salient considerations.

BC

[akiddoc]

There IS a vaccine card that is part of the current vaccination program.  It will be how you are associated with which vaccine & when you got the first dose and need to get the 2nd dose.

Whether that card or any associated ID on it is associated with any kind of official status of having gotten the vaccine, I don't know.  I believe if I have to have a small pox vaccine to travel somewhere, I have to prove it somehow, but I think it comes from my doctor's office.

You won't need anything to prove small pox vaccination. Small pox was eradicated decades ago.

[akiddoc]

There IS a vaccine card that is part of the current vaccination program.  It will be how you are associated with which vaccine & when you got the first dose and need to get the 2nd dose.

Whether that card or any associated ID on it is associated with any kind of official status of having gotten the vaccine, I don't know.  I believe if I have to have a small pox vaccine to travel somewhere, I have to prove it somehow, but I think it comes from my doctor's office.

You won't need anything to prove small pox vaccination. Small pox was eradicated decades ago.

[dabigv13]

The vaccine card you are given when you get a vaccine is just a paper card that the vaccine administrators write in the dates of your injections.

There is no security. No ID number or barcode. Would be simple to copy.

If someone wants to use a vaccine passport type system, some central agency would need to figure out a way to distribute secure cards to people. Not gonna happen.

[dabigv13]

The vaccine card you are given when you get a vaccine is just a paper card that the vaccine administrators write in the dates of your injections.

There is no security. No ID number or barcode. Would be simple to copy.

If someone wants to use a vaccine passport type system, some central agency would need to figure out a way to distribute secure cards to people. Not gonna happen.

[Genuine Realist]

[quote="dabigv13" pid='301598' dateline='1608151290']
The vaccine card you are given when you get a vaccine is just a paper card that the vaccine administrators write in the dates of your injections.

There is no security. No ID number or barcode. Would be simple to copy.

If someone wants to use a vaccine passport type system, some central agency would need to figure out a way to distribute secure cards to people. Not gonna happen.
[/quote
BC is probably right that vaccine distribution will outrun the bureaucratic machinery.

It's worth responding to the thought that 'carding' for vaccination does not analogize to carding for alcohol sales. It most assuredly does. The card in the case of alcohol distinguishes those who have attained enough maturity - in theory - to handle alcohol responsibly, from those who have not. In the same way, the vaccine card would distinguish those who have attained a certain biological state - immunity from covid (in theory) from those who have not. In neither case is there any moral implication.

The idea, by the way, is not to establish a class of privileged vaccinees. It's to get service industries back on their feet as quickly as possible.

[Genuine Realist]

[quote="dabigv13" pid='301598' dateline='1608151290']
The vaccine card you are given when you get a vaccine is just a paper card that the vaccine administrators write in the dates of your injections.

There is no security. No ID number or barcode. Would be simple to copy.

If someone wants to use a vaccine passport type system, some central agency would need to figure out a way to distribute secure cards to people. Not gonna happen.
[/quote
BC is probably right that vaccine distribution will outrun the bureaucratic machinery.

It's worth responding to the thought that 'carding' for vaccination does not analogize to carding for alcohol sales. It most assuredly does. The card in the case of alcohol distinguishes those who have attained enough maturity - in theory - to handle alcohol responsibly, from those who have not. In the same way, the vaccine card would distinguish those who have attained a certain biological state - immunity from covid (in theory) from those who have not. In neither case is there any moral implication.

The idea, by the way, is not to establish a class of privileged vaccinees. It's to get service industries back on their feet as quickly as possible.

[M T]

OWS has touted their electronic system for recording who gets what vaccination when & where.  I presume this will be considered medically private info, so you'll have to give up your right for your employer to know it, but are you going to have to sign off on the airlines to get it, the movie theater, etc?

I wonder if they made the paper cards so easily forgeable with the idea that they couldn't be considered a valid record for any purpose other than reminding you of your second dose.

[M T]

OWS has touted their electronic system for recording who gets what vaccination when & where.  I presume this will be considered medically private info, so you'll have to give up your right for your employer to know it, but are you going to have to sign off on the airlines to get it, the movie theater, etc?

I wonder if they made the paper cards so easily forgeable with the idea that they couldn't be considered a valid record for any purpose other than reminding you of your second dose.

[Genuine Realist]

OWS has touted their electronic system for recording who gets what vaccination when & where.  I presume this will be considered medically private info, so you'll have to give up your right for your employer to know it, but are you going to have to sign off on the airlines to get it, the movie theater, etc?

I wonder if they made the paper cards so easily forgeable with the idea that they couldn't be considered a valid record for any purpose other than reminding you of your second dose.

This should not be privileged information. Ludditism run wild.

[Genuine Realist]

OWS has touted their electronic system for recording who gets what vaccination when & where.  I presume this will be considered medically private info, so you'll have to give up your right for your employer to know it, but are you going to have to sign off on the airlines to get it, the movie theater, etc?

I wonder if they made the paper cards so easily forgeable with the idea that they couldn't be considered a valid record for any purpose other than reminding you of your second dose.

This should not be privileged information. Ludditism run wild.

[BostonCard]

Interesting that UCSF is not requiring vaccination in order to go to work.  They "strongly recommend" getting the vaccine, of course, and ask that staff who don't want to get the vaccine to affirmatively sign a declination.

BC

[BostonCard]

Interesting that UCSF is not requiring vaccination in order to go to work.  They "strongly recommend" getting the vaccine, of course, and ask that staff who don't want to get the vaccine to affirmatively sign a declination.

BC

[dabigv13]

You have to sign an acknowledgement that the vaccine is still investigational, under an EUA, before you get the vaccine.

I can't imagine they can require  vaccination with a medication still considered investigational.

------

More stuff for the lawyers here-

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/12/16/covi...wsuit.html

Bottom line, if you have a bad side effect or complication from a covid vaccine (or apparently most vaccines) you are SOL.

[dabigv13]

You have to sign an acknowledgement that the vaccine is still investigational, under an EUA, before you get the vaccine.

I can't imagine they can require  vaccination with a medication still considered investigational.

------

More stuff for the lawyers here-

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/12/16/covi...wsuit.html

Bottom line, if you have a bad side effect or complication from a covid vaccine (or apparently most vaccines) you are SOL.