[fullmetal]

Sampling bias caveats aside, we might need to figure out what we as a society should value in entertainment.

https://www.bu.edu/articles/2023/bu-find...s-studied/

[fullmetal]

Sampling bias caveats aside, we might need to figure out what we as a society should value in entertainment.

https://www.bu.edu/articles/2023/bu-find...s-studied/

[M T]

Joke (regarding cause/effect):  You need to have your head examined if you want to play football.

[M T]

Joke (regarding cause/effect):  You need to have your head examined if you want to play football.

[OutsiderFan]

Leigh Steinberg was on KNBR today and talked about how there are concussion treatments being developed that leverage the brain's neuroplasticity. This is the process that leads to stroke and TBI recoveries, the brain rewires itself to develop new pathways to execute functions after damage to the parts of brain that originally executed them.

[OutsiderFan]

Leigh Steinberg was on KNBR today and talked about how there are concussion treatments being developed that leverage the brain's neuroplasticity. This is the process that leads to stroke and TBI recoveries, the brain rewires itself to develop new pathways to execute functions after damage to the parts of brain that originally executed them.

[2006alum]

Not surprised, alas. 

Audie Cornish has a great podcast where she interviewed a former NFL fan and former player, both of whom have lost their appetite for the sport after seeing the effects of CTE.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/6ougD2R...Xuymsa4wRA

[2006alum]

Not surprised, alas. 

Audie Cornish has a great podcast where she interviewed a former NFL fan and former player, both of whom have lost their appetite for the sport after seeing the effects of CTE.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/6ougD2R...Xuymsa4wRA

[TrumpCard]

What about soccer with heading the ball?  Skiing and hockey for sure are not safe either.  There are a lot of risks out there.  I'm not saying we should ignore them, and I'm particularly wary about football because so many American kids play it at young ages.  Nevertheless, I do think we should avoid an outcome where people only use elliptical machines or practice yoga for exercise.

[TrumpCard]

What about soccer with heading the ball?  Skiing and hockey for sure are not safe either.  There are a lot of risks out there.  I'm not saying we should ignore them, and I'm particularly wary about football because so many American kids play it at young ages.  Nevertheless, I do think we should avoid an outcome where people only use elliptical machines or practice yoga for exercise.

[dabigv13]

It's a scary top line number, but without good controls, which are not present here, hard to know how scary.

[dabigv13]

It's a scary top line number, but without good controls, which are not present here, hard to know how scary.

[martyup]

Meanwhile, a new sport is being introduced by Dana White of MMA fame.  

https://www.powerslap.com/

[martyup]

Meanwhile, a new sport is being introduced by Dana White of MMA fame.  

https://www.powerslap.com/

[burger]

At least (some of) the college kids are getting paid now to mess up their brains.

:/

[burger]

At least (some of) the college kids are getting paid now to mess up their brains.

:/

[81alum]

For those who have been following CTE research, the problem is NOT mainly concussions.  Much has been done to deal with concussions.  The problem appears to be sub-concussive events, meaning hundreds of little jars and bumps to the head, most of which never result in a concussion.  Every time the brain changes directional momentum there can be an effect.  Basically, every single tackle, and yes--heading the ball in soccer.  Gymnastics is another big offender.

Now when our species was evolving these issues were not a problem, since people did not live past 25.  Not that Neanderthals played football or did gymnastics.  But now they are a big problem.  I really don't think there is going to be any way to mitigate these problems in some of these sports, and some hard choices will need to be made.  As with tobacco, however, it can take many decades for the evidence to mount and become so conclusive that change becomes mandatory.  We aren't there yet, but the signs are mounting.

In the meantime, I am going to enjoy watching these sports.  They are things of beauty, whatever their costs.  They may be more special knowing that their days are numbered.  And I won't object if the evidence finally concludes that we must end them.

[81alum]

For those who have been following CTE research, the problem is NOT mainly concussions.  Much has been done to deal with concussions.  The problem appears to be sub-concussive events, meaning hundreds of little jars and bumps to the head, most of which never result in a concussion.  Every time the brain changes directional momentum there can be an effect.  Basically, every single tackle, and yes--heading the ball in soccer.  Gymnastics is another big offender.

Now when our species was evolving these issues were not a problem, since people did not live past 25.  Not that Neanderthals played football or did gymnastics.  But now they are a big problem.  I really don't think there is going to be any way to mitigate these problems in some of these sports, and some hard choices will need to be made.  As with tobacco, however, it can take many decades for the evidence to mount and become so conclusive that change becomes mandatory.  We aren't there yet, but the signs are mounting.

In the meantime, I am going to enjoy watching these sports.  They are things of beauty, whatever their costs.  They may be more special knowing that their days are numbered.  And I won't object if the evidence finally concludes that we must end them.

[CowboyIndian]

The problem appears to be sub-concussive events, meaning hundreds of little jars and bumps to the head, most of which never result in a concussion.  Every time the brain changes directional momentum there can be an effect. 

And then there’s the (now ubiquitous) congratulatory head butt. I think of CTE every time I see guys doing that.

[CowboyIndian]

The problem appears to be sub-concussive events, meaning hundreds of little jars and bumps to the head, most of which never result in a concussion.  Every time the brain changes directional momentum there can be an effect. 

And then there’s the (now ubiquitous) congratulatory head butt. I think of CTE every time I see guys doing that.

[Mick]

My wife's best friend dated a former 49er for a few years. Both were in their mid-30s. He had played well over 100 games as a DE/OLB and had double digit sacks for a few years. He was an All-Pro a few times.

He suffered so much brain damage that, three years after he had retired, his speech was literally unintelligible. I felt for him immensely. He was in good physical shape, but he couldn't carry on a conversation. I know he thought he was making perfect sense, but this was beyond occasional slurring.

[Mick]

My wife's best friend dated a former 49er for a few years. Both were in their mid-30s. He had played well over 100 games as a DE/OLB and had double digit sacks for a few years. He was an All-Pro a few times.

He suffered so much brain damage that, three years after he had retired, his speech was literally unintelligible. I felt for him immensely. He was in good physical shape, but he couldn't carry on a conversation. I know he thought he was making perfect sense, but this was beyond occasional slurring.

[Farm93]

I remember a long time ago, when I was a freshman, some administrative type mentioned during orientation that Stanford University believed academics and athletics were both important to help cognitive function, or brain activity, or something of the sort.   I believe the message concluded with something like healthy body, healthy mind.   It was a nice way of reminding the most nerdy types that athletes and athletics are key to making Stanford a special place.

Sounded great, at the time.   Can't help but wonder what administrative types say at those events now that the whole idea of athletics helping the mind doesn't quite work with football, the most significant component of DAPER.

[Farm93]

I remember a long time ago, when I was a freshman, some administrative type mentioned during orientation that Stanford University believed academics and athletics were both important to help cognitive function, or brain activity, or something of the sort.   I believe the message concluded with something like healthy body, healthy mind.   It was a nice way of reminding the most nerdy types that athletes and athletics are key to making Stanford a special place.

Sounded great, at the time.   Can't help but wonder what administrative types say at those events now that the whole idea of athletics helping the mind doesn't quite work with football, the most significant component of DAPER.

[dabigv13]

And yet there are plenty of fluent and intelligible ex-NFL players that we see every Sunday on TV. 

There must be what, several hundred thousand former college football players? Maybe millions? It should be pretty feasible to determine prevalence of dementia or other neurological sequelae in this population matched against controls.

Would be more useful IMHO than these uncontrolled histology studies that seem to be most commonly in the news when it comes to CTE.

[dabigv13]

And yet there are plenty of fluent and intelligible ex-NFL players that we see every Sunday on TV. 

There must be what, several hundred thousand former college football players? Maybe millions? It should be pretty feasible to determine prevalence of dementia or other neurological sequelae in this population matched against controls.

Would be more useful IMHO than these uncontrolled histology studies that seem to be most commonly in the news when it comes to CTE.

[Griffins78]

This Sports illustrated made me sad and has me rethinking my support and enjoyment of football. I love getting to know the person inside the player but t makes me sad to think how football is damaging their bodies and minds for the rest of their lives.

They’re the Toughest of the Tough. But When Their NFL Teammates Started Dying, These Men Grew Afraid.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2023/01/31/nfl-fe...aily-cover

[Griffins78]

This Sports illustrated made me sad and has me rethinking my support and enjoyment of football. I love getting to know the person inside the player but t makes me sad to think how football is damaging their bodies and minds for the rest of their lives.

They’re the Toughest of the Tough. But When Their NFL Teammates Started Dying, These Men Grew Afraid.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2023/01/31/nfl-fe...aily-cover

[jonnyss]

really well-written article in the washington post on cte and harvard former football players, focusing on chris nowinsky, who has tirelessly pushed to have cte taken seriously, and chris eitzmann, handsome former team captain, who died and was found to have brain damage.

link

[jonnyss]

really well-written article in the washington post on cte and harvard former football players, focusing on chris nowinsky, who has tirelessly pushed to have cte taken seriously, and chris eitzmann, handsome former team captain, who died and was found to have brain damage.

link

[2006alum]

really well-written article in the washington post on cte and harvard former football players, focusing on chris nowinsky, who has tirelessly pushed to have cte taken seriously, and chris eitzmann, handsome former team captain, who died and was found to have brain damage.

link

Truly can't enjoy football anymore, for this reason. Cousin once removed played for USC about a decade ago, and had numerous concussions in high school and college. As a barely 30-year-old, he's now exhibiting all the symptoms of early stage CTE - confusion, forgetfulness, anger management, inability to concentrate. Worked in tech for years but lost his job when performance issues started to set in. Finally went to the police saying he needed help and they said there's nothing we can do, so he threatened to beat a cop up (in the station) so that he would be arrested and could get access to treatment.

When you see what this does to former players' lives and the lives of their loved ones, it gets pretty hard to come up with any justification for supporting it without the major modifications necessary to significantly reduce these risks.

But I'm sure a chorus will follow with "what about isms" and then we'll forget about it all until the next sad story or depressing medical study...

[2006alum]

really well-written article in the washington post on cte and harvard former football players, focusing on chris nowinsky, who has tirelessly pushed to have cte taken seriously, and chris eitzmann, handsome former team captain, who died and was found to have brain damage.

link

Truly can't enjoy football anymore, for this reason. Cousin once removed played for USC about a decade ago, and had numerous concussions in high school and college. As a barely 30-year-old, he's now exhibiting all the symptoms of early stage CTE - confusion, forgetfulness, anger management, inability to concentrate. Worked in tech for years but lost his job when performance issues started to set in. Finally went to the police saying he needed help and they said there's nothing we can do, so he threatened to beat a cop up (in the station) so that he would be arrested and could get access to treatment.

When you see what this does to former players' lives and the lives of their loved ones, it gets pretty hard to come up with any justification for supporting it without the major modifications necessary to significantly reduce these risks.

But I'm sure a chorus will follow with "what about isms" and then we'll forget about it all until the next sad story or depressing medical study...

[fullmetal]

There's nothing special about Stanford football that would prevent Stanford players from being vulnerable to CTE.  There have to be Stanford football alumni suffering from the same, perhaps in silence, hidden for shame when they should be getting treatment and support as early as possible.

[fullmetal]

There's nothing special about Stanford football that would prevent Stanford players from being vulnerable to CTE.  There have to be Stanford football alumni suffering from the same, perhaps in silence, hidden for shame when they should be getting treatment and support as early as possible.

[TreesAndBirds]

SJ Merc recommends ending high school football.

The highlights:

Participation in high school football in CA increased last year, first time in a decade. 

New BU study finds that participation in organized football results in 61% increased likelihood of Parkinsons  or similar symptoms.

CA is only state that doesnt mandate athletic trainers.

Recommends that football in high school go the way of boxing and be phased out. 

https://www.mercurynews.com/2023/08/16/e...ent=manual

[TreesAndBirds]

SJ Merc recommends ending high school football.

The highlights:

Participation in high school football in CA increased last year, first time in a decade. 

New BU study finds that participation in organized football results in 61% increased likelihood of Parkinsons  or similar symptoms.

CA is only state that doesnt mandate athletic trainers.

Recommends that football in high school go the way of boxing and be phased out. 

https://www.mercurynews.com/2023/08/16/e...ent=manual

[OutsiderFan]

SJ Merc recommends ending high school football.

The highlights:

Participation in high school football in CA increased last year, first time in a decade. 

New BU study finds that participation in organized football results in 61% increased likelihood of Parkinsons  or similar symptoms.

CA is only state that doesnt mandate athletic trainers.

Recommends that football in high school go the way of boxing and be phased out. 

https://www.mercurynews.com/2023/08/16/e...ent=manual

I don't see how an athletic trainer will help with head injuries, but it is kind of hard to believe any sports program wouldn't have an athletic trainer available, legally mandated or not.

As for football being banned, the only reason boxing was is because interest in it waned. If there were millions of dollars to be made from it in high schools, there would be boxing in high schools too.

I think we have lived with football long enough to know it doesn't cause long-term problems that somehow bring down society. This isn't to say there aren't cases where people suffer, but I would argue banning certain foods from diets would be a more effective way to mitigate the long-term cost of unhealthy choices in society.

We allow smoking. We allow alcohol. We allow Bacon Double Cheeseburgers. Things like seatbelts and mandating helmets makes sense because they save lives and money on a large scale. Not that many people play football relative to the population, and the numbers of that population that create societal cost is not that significant.

There is a fine line between protecting society, individuals, and allowing a free society. Football, I would argue, teaches a lot of good lessons and provides great benefits to those who play it more often than not. One of the greatest experiences of my life was playing High School football, for so many reasons.

[OutsiderFan]

SJ Merc recommends ending high school football.

The highlights:

Participation in high school football in CA increased last year, first time in a decade. 

New BU study finds that participation in organized football results in 61% increased likelihood of Parkinsons  or similar symptoms.

CA is only state that doesnt mandate athletic trainers.

Recommends that football in high school go the way of boxing and be phased out. 

https://www.mercurynews.com/2023/08/16/e...ent=manual

I don't see how an athletic trainer will help with head injuries, but it is kind of hard to believe any sports program wouldn't have an athletic trainer available, legally mandated or not.

As for football being banned, the only reason boxing was is because interest in it waned. If there were millions of dollars to be made from it in high schools, there would be boxing in high schools too.

I think we have lived with football long enough to know it doesn't cause long-term problems that somehow bring down society. This isn't to say there aren't cases where people suffer, but I would argue banning certain foods from diets would be a more effective way to mitigate the long-term cost of unhealthy choices in society.

We allow smoking. We allow alcohol. We allow Bacon Double Cheeseburgers. Things like seatbelts and mandating helmets makes sense because they save lives and money on a large scale. Not that many people play football relative to the population, and the numbers of that population that create societal cost is not that significant.

There is a fine line between protecting society, individuals, and allowing a free society. Football, I would argue, teaches a lot of good lessons and provides great benefits to those who play it more often than not. One of the greatest experiences of my life was playing High School football, for so many reasons.

[81alum]

As for football being banned, the only reason boxing was is because interest in it waned. If there were millions of dollars to be made from it in high schools, there would be boxing in high schools too.

College boxing was banned after a Wisconsin boxer in 1960 slipped into a coma and died 8 days after a national championship bout with an SJSU boxer.  The previous year a Texas A&M player died after a bout.  Wisconsin, the nation's leading boxing college, pulled the plug, and the NCAA followed on its heels. 

San Jose State won the last three team boxing championships in 58, 59, and 60.  But it was no consolation for Stu Bardell, the SJSU boxer who delivered the blow. 

“All I could think of was why?” Bartell told the Mercury News in 2001. “Why was I picked to land that lethal blow? People told me that it wasn’t my fault, but they weren’t in my shoes.”

https://www.mercurynews.com/2007/02/09/o...ack-clock/

Boxing fielded 20 teams in 1959, down from a peak of 55 in 1948, so it is true that its popularity was waning.  But the reason its popularity was waning had to do with growing concerns over health, and the two deaths confirmed those fears and put an end to it.

Stanford had a boxing team right up to the end, under coach Ray Lunny--later inducted into the World Boxing Hall of Fame.  Stanford student Ed Rothman placed second in his division at the last championships in 1960.

[81alum]

As for football being banned, the only reason boxing was is because interest in it waned. If there were millions of dollars to be made from it in high schools, there would be boxing in high schools too.

College boxing was banned after a Wisconsin boxer in 1960 slipped into a coma and died 8 days after a national championship bout with an SJSU boxer.  The previous year a Texas A&M player died after a bout.  Wisconsin, the nation's leading boxing college, pulled the plug, and the NCAA followed on its heels. 

San Jose State won the last three team boxing championships in 58, 59, and 60.  But it was no consolation for Stu Bardell, the SJSU boxer who delivered the blow. 

“All I could think of was why?” Bartell told the Mercury News in 2001. “Why was I picked to land that lethal blow? People told me that it wasn’t my fault, but they weren’t in my shoes.”

https://www.mercurynews.com/2007/02/09/o...ack-clock/

Boxing fielded 20 teams in 1959, down from a peak of 55 in 1948, so it is true that its popularity was waning.  But the reason its popularity was waning had to do with growing concerns over health, and the two deaths confirmed those fears and put an end to it.

Stanford had a boxing team right up to the end, under coach Ray Lunny--later inducted into the World Boxing Hall of Fame.  Stanford student Ed Rothman placed second in his division at the last championships in 1960.