[TonyLima]

Spartans’ transgender controversy runs into another twist with foe

Likely paywalled. Let me know if you’d like a pdf. 

[TonyLima]

Spartans’ transgender controversy runs into another twist with foe

Likely paywalled. Let me know if you’d like a pdf. 

[paloalto]

As a college WVB fan I've been following this all season.   I didn't start a thread because I thought it might lead to political fighting and hard feelings among fellow Cardinal fans.

I'll just say this about the latest development as I understand it.  The San Jose team has to travel to Nevada to find out if there will be a game.  Since the Nevada players voted to not play and the University has stated the players won't be punished if they don't play, there is likely to be no game.

My only comment; there should be a way to decide if there will be a game or not before the San Jose team travels and their players miss out on some class time.

[paloalto]

As a college WVB fan I've been following this all season.   I didn't start a thread because I thought it might lead to political fighting and hard feelings among fellow Cardinal fans.

I'll just say this about the latest development as I understand it.  The San Jose team has to travel to Nevada to find out if there will be a game.  Since the Nevada players voted to not play and the University has stated the players won't be punished if they don't play, there is likely to be no game.

My only comment; there should be a way to decide if there will be a game or not before the San Jose team travels and their players miss out on some class time.

[Mick]

Interesting to me that the four religious colleges on SJSU's schedule (SCU, USF, St. Mary's, Cal Baptist) all participated in the matches, whereas the four forfeiting universities are non-California state schools (Wyoming, Utah St. Boise St., UNReno).

SJSU (9-3) s a good team. SCU (5-10) took them to a five set tiebreaker.

[Mick]

Interesting to me that the four religious colleges on SJSU's schedule (SCU, USF, St. Mary's, Cal Baptist) all participated in the matches, whereas the four forfeiting universities are non-California state schools (Wyoming, Utah St. Boise St., UNReno).

SJSU (9-3) s a good team. SCU (5-10) took them to a five set tiebreaker.

[TonyLima]

As a college WVB fan I've been following this all season.   I didn't start a thread because I thought it might lead to political fighting and hard feelings among fellow Cardinal fans.

I'll just say this about the latest development as I understand it.  The San Jose team has to travel to Nevada to find out if there will be a game.  Since the Nevada players voted to not play and the University has stated the players won't be punished if they don't play, there is likely to be no game.

My only comment; there should be a way to decide if there will be a game or not before the San Jose team travels and their players miss out on some class time.

All excellent points. But some of the Nevada players must be considering transfers. They’ve seen their school administrators don’t have their backs.

[TonyLima]

As a college WVB fan I've been following this all season.   I didn't start a thread because I thought it might lead to political fighting and hard feelings among fellow Cardinal fans.

I'll just say this about the latest development as I understand it.  The San Jose team has to travel to Nevada to find out if there will be a game.  Since the Nevada players voted to not play and the University has stated the players won't be punished if they don't play, there is likely to be no game.

My only comment; there should be a way to decide if there will be a game or not before the San Jose team travels and their players miss out on some class time.

All excellent points. But some of the Nevada players must be considering transfers. They’ve seen their school administrators don’t have their backs.

[BobK]

The timing doesn’t suggest that Tony

[BobK]

The timing doesn’t suggest that Tony

[fullmetal]

Interesting to me that the four religious colleges on SJSU's schedule (SCU, USF, St. Mary's, Cal Baptist) all participated in the matches, whereas the four forfeiting universities are non-California state schools (Wyoming, Utah St. Boise St., UNReno).

The forfeiting universities might also fall along certain intersections of rural/urban and conservative/secular divides in addition to the California/non-California divide.  It is their right to do so, though they could certainly be more gracious about it, if such a descriptor could be applied.

[fullmetal]

Interesting to me that the four religious colleges on SJSU's schedule (SCU, USF, St. Mary's, Cal Baptist) all participated in the matches, whereas the four forfeiting universities are non-California state schools (Wyoming, Utah St. Boise St., UNReno).

The forfeiting universities might also fall along certain intersections of rural/urban and conservative/secular divides in addition to the California/non-California divide.  It is their right to do so, though they could certainly be more gracious about it, if such a descriptor could be applied.

[ColoradoTree]

FWIW, a different non-California state school (Colorado State from just up the road) chose to play SJSU. CSU won in a sweep: 25-18, 25-20, 25-20.

[ColoradoTree]

FWIW, a different non-California state school (Colorado State from just up the road) chose to play SJSU. CSU won in a sweep: 25-18, 25-20, 25-20.

[Mick]

FWIW, a different non-California state school (Colorado State from just up the road) chose to play SJSU. CSU won in a sweep: 25-18, 25-20, 25-20.

I didn't mean to imply that SJSU's out-of-state opponents categorically refused to play them. Iowa, Delaware, La Tech. and the other Nevada state school (UNLV), all played SJSU. UNLV beat SJSU, 3-1. And SJSU plays Air Force in Colorado on Saturday.

[Mick]

FWIW, a different non-California state school (Colorado State from just up the road) chose to play SJSU. CSU won in a sweep: 25-18, 25-20, 25-20.

I didn't mean to imply that SJSU's out-of-state opponents categorically refused to play them. Iowa, Delaware, La Tech. and the other Nevada state school (UNLV), all played SJSU. UNLV beat SJSU, 3-1. And SJSU plays Air Force in Colorado on Saturday.

[ColoradoTree]

FWIW, a different non-California state school (Colorado State from just up the road) chose to play SJSU. CSU won in a sweep: 25-18, 25-20, 25-20.

I didn't mean to imply that SJSU's out-of-state opponents categorically refused to play them. Iowa, Delaware, La Tech. and the other Nevada state school, UNLV, all played SJSU. UNLV beat SJSU, 3-1. And SJSU plays Air Force in Colorado on Saturday.

Oh, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise! I just remembered that tidbit from the Denver Post and other local news when it happened and figured I'd share with the group. Reaction here in Colorado seemed pretty positively inclined toward the Rams' "we don't care who we play, we're gonna beat 'em" attitude.

[ColoradoTree]

FWIW, a different non-California state school (Colorado State from just up the road) chose to play SJSU. CSU won in a sweep: 25-18, 25-20, 25-20.

I didn't mean to imply that SJSU's out-of-state opponents categorically refused to play them. Iowa, Delaware, La Tech. and the other Nevada state school, UNLV, all played SJSU. UNLV beat SJSU, 3-1. And SJSU plays Air Force in Colorado on Saturday.

Oh, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise! I just remembered that tidbit from the Denver Post and other local news when it happened and figured I'd share with the group. Reaction here in Colorado seemed pretty positively inclined toward the Rams' "we don't care who we play, we're gonna beat 'em" attitude.

[martyup]

FWIW, a different non-California state school (Colorado State from just up the road) chose to play SJSU. CSU won in a sweep: 25-18, 25-20, 25-20.

The outcome of the matches is irrelevant to the issues involved.

[martyup]

FWIW, a different non-California state school (Colorado State from just up the road) chose to play SJSU. CSU won in a sweep: 25-18, 25-20, 25-20.

The outcome of the matches is irrelevant to the issues involved.

[TonyLima]

The timing doesn’t suggest that Tony

Please elaborate.

[TonyLima]

The timing doesn’t suggest that Tony

Please elaborate.

[needle]

I feel like there's no villain here, though my sympathies lie with the San Jose State women. You can't make athletes play if they feel unsafe playing.

[needle]

I feel like there's no villain here, though my sympathies lie with the San Jose State women. You can't make athletes play if they feel unsafe playing.

[Mick]

I feel like there's no villain here, though my sympathies lie with the San Jose State women. You can't make athletes play if they feel unsafe playing.

The SJSU player in question recently six-packed an opposing player, meaning hit the player in the face with a spike before she could get her hands up to protect herself. It usually happens to back-row players, but in this case it happened at the net. At close range, it's no fun at all. Happened to one of my fellow players in a match against UC Santa Cruz. He couldn't see for about an hour and he got a concussion. It's a rarity in women's volleyball.

Etymology of six-pack term...if you were playing beach volleyball and an opposing player hit you in the face with the ball, you owed him a six-pack.

[Mick]

I feel like there's no villain here, though my sympathies lie with the San Jose State women. You can't make athletes play if they feel unsafe playing.

The SJSU player in question recently six-packed an opposing player, meaning hit the player in the face with a spike before she could get her hands up to protect herself. It usually happens to back-row players, but in this case it happened at the net. At close range, it's no fun at all. Happened to one of my fellow players in a match against UC Santa Cruz. He couldn't see for about an hour and he got a concussion. It's a rarity in women's volleyball.

Etymology of six-pack term...if you were playing beach volleyball and an opposing player hit you in the face with the ball, you owed him a six-pack.

[BostonCard]

https://www.latimes.com/sports/story/202...te-lawsuit

Haley Hodson...

"In the UCLA match, Hodson tried to block a hard shot. The ball ricocheted off her forehead and into the stands."

BC

[BostonCard]

https://www.latimes.com/sports/story/202...te-lawsuit

Haley Hodson...

"In the UCLA match, Hodson tried to block a hard shot. The ball ricocheted off her forehead and into the stands."

BC

[BobK]

In the last two matches I was at Stanford to watch there were several players hit in the face. It happens.

I’ll comment on Hopson later other that the hit resulted in NIL

[BobK]

In the last two matches I was at Stanford to watch there were several players hit in the face. It happens.

I’ll comment on Hopson later other that the hit resulted in NIL

[Leftcoast]

Yeah, we were playing mid level club volleyball against a team with powerful hitters.  In our defense one player from the backrow would pull up to cover dinks (light touches designed to lift the ball over the block) and on this play I was the lucky backrow player.

Normally our block was pretty good and simply hammering the ball into a well set block was a losing strategy but for some reason the front row OLB I was backing DID NOT go up for the block. This left us open to a HARD hit coming straight down ... at me. Hard enough to break my glasses over my nose and send me reeling and bloodied.  An embarassing six pack that had me seeing stars and needing a few minutes to catch my breath.  Luckily I had contact lenses available and was able to replace my glasses and rejoin the game in the next set.

But on that play, I had no chance.

[Leftcoast]

Yeah, we were playing mid level club volleyball against a team with powerful hitters.  In our defense one player from the backrow would pull up to cover dinks (light touches designed to lift the ball over the block) and on this play I was the lucky backrow player.

Normally our block was pretty good and simply hammering the ball into a well set block was a losing strategy but for some reason the front row OLB I was backing DID NOT go up for the block. This left us open to a HARD hit coming straight down ... at me. Hard enough to break my glasses over my nose and send me reeling and bloodied.  An embarassing six pack that had me seeing stars and needing a few minutes to catch my breath.  Luckily I had contact lenses available and was able to replace my glasses and rejoin the game in the next set.

But on that play, I had no chance.

[Bruce Wang]

As the father of a female athlete with collegiate athletic aspirations in a team sport with contact, I oppose athletes born male competing against women.  It's a fairness and safety issue.  I would pull my daughter from such a contest.  What I find perplexing is why people are scared to venture this opinion.

[Bruce Wang]

As the father of a female athlete with collegiate athletic aspirations in a team sport with contact, I oppose athletes born male competing against women.  It's a fairness and safety issue.  I would pull my daughter from such a contest.  What I find perplexing is why people are scared to venture this opinion.

[cardcrimson]

As the father of a female athlete with collegiate athletic aspirations in a team sport with contact, I oppose athletes born male competing against women.  It's a fairness and safety issue.  I would pull my daughter from such a contest.  What I find perplexing is why people are scared to venture this opinion.

Was in the same situation for the last few years, as my daughter played water polo, was a goalie, and had several D1 offers. Posted similarly, especially as during a high school boys game, I watched a goalie take a shot off his forehead, and go straight up about 20 feet. Don't think my daughter could have survived that. Then during a few camps, the guy goalies sucked and my daughter and another girl goalie ended up playing with the boys. While the other girl goalie was amazing, my daughter did just fine. 

While I strongly agree about the safety issues, I'd be a hypocrite if my daughter were in a similar situation as SJSU's opponents and I pulled her. Competitive fairness, though is as big an issue as safety, and neither should be ignored.

[cardcrimson]

As the father of a female athlete with collegiate athletic aspirations in a team sport with contact, I oppose athletes born male competing against women.  It's a fairness and safety issue.  I would pull my daughter from such a contest.  What I find perplexing is why people are scared to venture this opinion.

Was in the same situation for the last few years, as my daughter played water polo, was a goalie, and had several D1 offers. Posted similarly, especially as during a high school boys game, I watched a goalie take a shot off his forehead, and go straight up about 20 feet. Don't think my daughter could have survived that. Then during a few camps, the guy goalies sucked and my daughter and another girl goalie ended up playing with the boys. While the other girl goalie was amazing, my daughter did just fine. 

While I strongly agree about the safety issues, I'd be a hypocrite if my daughter were in a similar situation as SJSU's opponents and I pulled her. Competitive fairness, though is as big an issue as safety, and neither should be ignored.

[ColoradoTree]

FWIW, a different non-California state school (Colorado State from just up the road) chose to play SJSU. CSU won in a sweep: 25-18, 25-20, 25-20.

The outcome of the matches is irrelevant to the issues involved.

I'm not so sure it is. These issues aren't easy, but some of these situations strike me as implicating competitive fairness issues, while others just don't seem like they're as big of a deal. Lia Thomas certainly wasn't a safety issue, but on the more extreme end of a competitive fairness issue, and while I sympathized with all concerned in that situation, it didn't feel fundamentally fair to have Thomas--who had only recently transitioned and who was dominating competition and setting records--competing against cisgender women. 

But from what I've been able to gather, this isn't the same situation. SJSU isn't going to win a national title. Their 4-3 conference Mountain West record is aided by three of those Ws being forfeits that almost certainly would've been losses otherwise. This player isn't going to the Olympics or anything. She started playing women's college volleyball four years ago and no one has said boo before. She played girls' high school and club volleyball all through high school and apparently no one said boo then either. She appears to have transitioned a long time ago. "Born male" is only one piece of the puzzle. When the transition occurred also matters. The degree of dominance of the individual player matters. And yeah, the physical profile of the individual player matters. Here, she's a tall, skinny woman who looks like a tall, skinny woman--the media reports seem to float the idea of some hulking behemoth who's out here injuring competitors left and right, but this ain't that. 

I agree that player safety is important. But why is player safety a paramount concern this year for the University of Wyoming when it beat SJSU 3-0 and 3-1 last year with this player on SJSU's roster? Same question for Utah State, which beat SJSU 3-0 twice last year. Same question for Boise State, which beat SJSU 3-0 twice last year. The results of past matchups are indicative of the veracity of the stated justification for these cancellations. It seems demonstrably true that it was safe for these teams to play SJSU with this player last year. She didn't put on 50 pounds of muscle in the offseason. The only thing that appears to have changed is that now those teams know that she was born male. And that makes me question how much players' legitimate concerns for their own safety--or whether there is a reasonably objective safety issue--is really driving this particular discussion. 

Again, player safety is fundamental. And players who feel unsafe need to be heard and respected. But precisely because issues about trans women competing against cis women are so complex and fraught, I try to take these situations on a case by case basis. And my instinct when I heard about this in the first place was that it was just not that big of a deal. And everything I've learned since has only reinforced that.

[ColoradoTree]

FWIW, a different non-California state school (Colorado State from just up the road) chose to play SJSU. CSU won in a sweep: 25-18, 25-20, 25-20.

The outcome of the matches is irrelevant to the issues involved.

I'm not so sure it is. These issues aren't easy, but some of these situations strike me as implicating competitive fairness issues, while others just don't seem like they're as big of a deal. Lia Thomas certainly wasn't a safety issue, but on the more extreme end of a competitive fairness issue, and while I sympathized with all concerned in that situation, it didn't feel fundamentally fair to have Thomas--who had only recently transitioned and who was dominating competition and setting records--competing against cisgender women. 

But from what I've been able to gather, this isn't the same situation. SJSU isn't going to win a national title. Their 4-3 conference Mountain West record is aided by three of those Ws being forfeits that almost certainly would've been losses otherwise. This player isn't going to the Olympics or anything. She started playing women's college volleyball four years ago and no one has said boo before. She played girls' high school and club volleyball all through high school and apparently no one said boo then either. She appears to have transitioned a long time ago. "Born male" is only one piece of the puzzle. When the transition occurred also matters. The degree of dominance of the individual player matters. And yeah, the physical profile of the individual player matters. Here, she's a tall, skinny woman who looks like a tall, skinny woman--the media reports seem to float the idea of some hulking behemoth who's out here injuring competitors left and right, but this ain't that. 

I agree that player safety is important. But why is player safety a paramount concern this year for the University of Wyoming when it beat SJSU 3-0 and 3-1 last year with this player on SJSU's roster? Same question for Utah State, which beat SJSU 3-0 twice last year. Same question for Boise State, which beat SJSU 3-0 twice last year. The results of past matchups are indicative of the veracity of the stated justification for these cancellations. It seems demonstrably true that it was safe for these teams to play SJSU with this player last year. She didn't put on 50 pounds of muscle in the offseason. The only thing that appears to have changed is that now those teams know that she was born male. And that makes me question how much players' legitimate concerns for their own safety--or whether there is a reasonably objective safety issue--is really driving this particular discussion. 

Again, player safety is fundamental. And players who feel unsafe need to be heard and respected. But precisely because issues about trans women competing against cis women are so complex and fraught, I try to take these situations on a case by case basis. And my instinct when I heard about this in the first place was that it was just not that big of a deal. And everything I've learned since has only reinforced that.

[martyup]

How can you have a fair non-subjective rule that applies on a case-by-case basis?  Who decides that one athlete is too strong to compete against women and another is not?  There is a reason we have genders at birth, and it's not just for reproduction.  The easiest, non-subjective, and most fair test IMO is gender at birth.

[martyup]

How can you have a fair non-subjective rule that applies on a case-by-case basis?  Who decides that one athlete is too strong to compete against women and another is not?  There is a reason we have genders at birth, and it's not just for reproduction.  The easiest, non-subjective, and most fair test IMO is gender at birth.