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RE: WBB Stanford WNBA - Nobadeer - 06-03-2025

The Fever sans Caitlin Clark beat the Mystics in the Commissioners Cup, 85-76. 

A good game for LSJU alums - Hull started, played 36 minutes, 14 pts (all second half; 6 of 9 FG), 6 reb 4 ast 1 stl, and the game's best +/- at + 19. One of her best games in the WNBA.

Iriafen started for Washington, played 27 minutes, 20 pts (9 of 11 FG), 9 reb.

And the Dallas Wings, sans Beuckers, lost 83-77 to the Storm in their Cup game. N. Ogwumike played 31 minutes for the Storm, 14 pts, 9 reb. Katie Samuelson was out with injury. Carrington was the game's high scorer with her season high of 22 pts for Dallas, with 8 reb and 4 ast. If only she and Tara had gotten along better . . .

And Minnesota crushed Phx by 88-65 in the other Cup game. Karlie Samuelson had her season high of 9 pts (3 for 3 on threes) for the victorious Lynx.

RE: WBB Stanford WNBA - mbdude - 06-04-2025

and Alanna had 13 pts  5 assists  2 blocks. 2nd in league in blocks to date

RE: WBB Stanford WNBA - joemontes - 06-04-2025

Lexie HULL has really vastly improved and wonderfully elevated her game in the WNBA. From being a seldomly used bench player during her first two seasons, she is now the starting SF and currently averaging 10.7 ppg while leading the league in 3-point efficiency with a .556 clip.

RE: WBB Stanford WNBA - Spiny_Norman - 06-06-2025

(06-03-2025, 02:27 PM)stopandpop Wrote:  Brink on "Celebrity Jeopardy" tonight on ABC.

It was Celebrity Wheel of Fortune. 

She finished 3rd. 
https://andynwof.wordpress.com/2025/06/03/celebrity-wof-recap-june-3-2025/

RE: WBB Stanford WNBA - crackpot - 06-06-2025

(06-06-2025, 06:40 PM)Spiny_Norman Wrote:  
(06-03-2025, 02:27 PM)stopandpop Wrote:  Brink on "Celebrity Jeopardy" tonight on ABC.

It was Celebrity Wheel of Fortune. 

She finished 3rd. 
https://andynwof.wordpress.com/2025/06/03/celebrity-wof-recap-june-3-2025/

Made myself watch it. I find Pat Sajak SO hard to stomach.

But I was screaming "You have one!" and she finally got "CHAMPIONSHIP."

RE: WBB Stanford WNBA - mbdude - 06-08-2025

Jones waived again, by Phoenix this time

RE: WBB Stanford WNBA - bl82 - 06-08-2025

In 4 games and 47 minutes for Phoenix, she took a grand total of 2 threes and she was 1-2. I'm wondering if the biggest issue is that she just does not have the quickness to keep up with most perimeter WNBA players on defense.

RE: WBB Stanford WNBA - BillBradley - 06-09-2025

(06-08-2025, 04:34 PM)bl82 Wrote:  In 4 games and 47 minutes for Phoenix, she took a grand total of 2 threes and she was 1-2.  I'm wondering if the biggest issue is that she just does not have the quickness to keep up with most perimeter WNBA players on defense.
I think that's part of it for sure. She just looks like she struggles to keep up. 

Haley reminds me of a very common story on the boys side...the early maturing player. Goes through junior high as the bigger, stronger kid who scores 20 a game all within 10 feet of the hoop. No one can stop him because he's way ahead physically (facial hair in 7th grade, you all know what I'm talking about). But at some point, that player gets in trouble because everyone else catches up. At that point, the kid needs to be able to fall back on other skills (shooting, passing, ball handling), but he doesn't have them because he never needed them. Now I'm not saying that Haley was an early maturing player - I don't really even know a thing about that. But her game and journey reminds me of that kid. She made bank, even in college, playing big and physical basketball. Great rebounder. Really knew how to get to her spots down low. Had a really nice midrange pullup. Beautiful back to the basket moves. And she could handle it a little bit, so she was able to play guard. But against the size and quickness in the W?  Just doesn't translate. IMO, she really needed to play the 3 as a "big guard". Not the 1. Not the 4 or 5. That way, she wouldn't have to guard the 1's and 2's, or the 4's and 5's. She absolutely can guard players like, say, Kia Nurse. 6' to 6'2, but not crazy athletic. Unfortunately, to be a 3, you have to be a knock down perimeter shooter. And that's the rub.

RE: WBB Stanford WNBA - CompSci87 - 06-09-2025

Very accurate take.

RE: WBB Stanford WNBA - 2006alum - 06-09-2025

(06-09-2025, 12:30 PM)BillBradley Wrote:  
(06-08-2025, 04:34 PM)bl82 Wrote:  In 4 games and 47 minutes for Phoenix, she took a grand total of 2 threes and she was 1-2.  I'm wondering if the biggest issue is that she just does not have the quickness to keep up with most perimeter WNBA players on defense.
I think that's part of it for sure. She just looks like she struggles to keep up. 

Haley reminds me of a very common story on the boys side...the early maturing player. Goes through junior high as the bigger, stronger kid who scores 20 a game all within 10 feet of the hoop. No one can stop him because he's way ahead physically (facial hair in 7th grade, you all know what I'm talking about). But at some point, that player gets in trouble because everyone else catches up. At that point, the kid needs to be able to fall back on other skills (shooting, passing, ball handling), but he doesn't have them because he never needed them. Now I'm not saying that Haley was an early maturing player - I don't really even know a thing about that. But her game and journey reminds me of that kid. She made bank, even in college, playing big and physical basketball. Great rebounder. Really knew how to get to her spots down low. Had a really nice midrange pullup. Beautiful back to the basket moves. And she could handle it a little bit, so she was able to play guard. But against the size and quickness in the W?  Just doesn't translate. IMO, she really needed to play the 3 as a "big guard". Not the 1. Not the 4 or 5. That way, she wouldn't have to guard the 1's and 2's, or the 4's and 5's. She absolutely can guard players like, say, Kia Nurse. 6' to 6'2, but not crazy athletic. Unfortunately, to be a 3, you have to be a knock down perimeter shooter. And that's the rub.

Spot in analysis, imho. Haley is a very poor catch and shoot player, and she needs the ball in her hands to make things happen, but she's neither a fast enough as a 2 nor a big enough 4 to create consistently herself. And as a 3, she can't do the one thing you need a 3 to always be able to do: catch and shoot.

Wild that Karlie and Dijonai have found their place in multiple starting lineups and Haley has likely played her last game in the W barring another 7 day contract. Really goes to show how much effort matters in the long run. 

As one reddit poster put it, "everything about her game can be summarized in the title of her podcast." Harsh, but true.

RE: WBB Stanford WNBA - BostonCard - 06-09-2025

Let's be clear that succeeding in the WNBA is *hard* for anyone, given that there are only 13 teams, each with 12 players (156 total players) and that most players, even very good ones will not get a sniff of the league.  There is no shame in being the 160th best women's basketball player in the world even though that means you are probably on the outside looking in on a WNBA career. While you hope that being the former top rated player coming out of high school increases those likelihoods, it is still really hard.  I think the analysis by Bill Bradley is probably right; the only thing I would add is that you can't will yourself to being an effective shooter.  The undercurrent in this thread and in other posts is that she didn't work on developing her shot and that it was a lack of effort that limited her.  That is certainly possible (and maybe there is some anecdotal evidence that she didn't), but work and effort are necessary but not sufficient to ensure success.  Sometimes no amount of trying is going to overcome limitations.  Case in point, Shaquille O'Neill was very cognizant of the fact that his poor free throw shooting was hurting his overall game. And yet, despite practicing extensively (and, apparently, being able to hit free throws consistently in practice) he never was even a fair free throw shooter.  For whatever reason, Jones never developed a consistent three point shot... she is still a better basketball player than 99.9999% of women out there, but to really succeed in the WNBA, she probably needed another digit.

BC

RE: WBB Stanford WNBA - jonnyss - 06-09-2025

(06-09-2025, 04:00 PM)2006alum Wrote:  Wild that Karlie and Dijonai have found their place in multiple starting lineups and Haley has likely played her last game in the W barring another 7 day contract. Really goes to show how much effort matters in the long run. 

As one reddit poster put it, "everything about her game can be summarized in the title of her podcast." Harsh, but true.

painful to me that folks keep trashing the young woman who gave us the national championship. finals mvp, anyone?

i agree that as a tweener, she has trouble finding a place in the wnba. she is a too-small power forward.

i agree that she's not a good enough 3-point shooter to play the 3.

i disagree that she has no 3-point shot (and is too short to play the 4) because of lack of effort. misguided and mean-spirited. not to mention ungrateful. 

isaiah thomas (the older) had a career 3-point % of 29%

would kevon looney like to shoot the 3 as well as quinten post? of course! lack of effort? no way. other big men w no 3-point game; rudy gobert, clint capela, mitchell robinson, steven adams.

and by the way, folks, it's no surprise that dijonai is a star. she was a top-10 prospect in hs until her knee injury. she was injured and underutilized at stanford. she was a star at baylor for her senior year. she would have beaten uconn basically single-handedly in the NCAA semi's except for a blatant no-call. for those who keep blaming lauren betts' transfer on haley, i...don't..think...so. betts transferred for playing time and respect, same as dijonai.

RE: WBB Stanford WNBA - 2006alum - 06-09-2025

(06-09-2025, 05:16 PM)jonnyss Wrote:  
(06-09-2025, 04:00 PM)2006alum Wrote:  Wild that Karlie and Dijonai have found their place in multiple starting lineups and Haley has likely played her last game in the W barring another 7 day contract. Really goes to show how much effort matters in the long run. 

As one reddit poster put it, "everything about her game can be summarized in the title of her podcast." Harsh, but true.

painful to me that folks keep trashing the young woman who gave us the national championship. finals mvp, anyone?

i agree that as a tweener, she has trouble finding a place in the wnba. she is a too-small power forward.

i agree that she's not a good enough 3-point shooter to play the 3.

i disagree that she has no 3-point shot (and is too short to play the 4) because of lack of effort. misguided and mean-spirited. not to mention ungrateful. 

isaiah thomas (the older) had a career 3-point % of 29%

would kevon looney like to shoot the 3 as well as quinten post? of course! lack of effort? no way. other big men w no 3-point game; rudy gobert, clint capela, mitchell robinson, steven adams.

and by the way, folks, it's no surprise that dijonai is a star. she was a top-10 prospect in hs until her knee injury. she was injured and underutilized at stanford. she was a star at baylor for her senior year. she would have beaten uconn basically single-handedly in the NCAA semi's except for a blatant no-call. for those who keep blaming lauren betts' transfer on haley, i...don't..think...so. betts transferred for playing time and respect, same as dijonai.

Uh, I didn't say she was too small to play the 4 for lack of effort. I just said she hasn't put the work in the retrain her jump shot, something many here have said is what's holding her back. Maybe she won't, maybe she can't, I don't know. But I've seen players refine their shot over time, and unlike players like Karlie (and Hannah and Nneka and Clardy and Candice and Cam), none of the coaches, that I can recall, ever particularly praised Jones's work ethic. And anecdotally, she herself has made comments on her podcast about not loving getting in the gym or doing training. So this isn't just totally wild slander.

And BTW, I really like her. I wanted her to succeed in the W, and I'm incredibly grateful for our championship, which absolutely would not have happened but for her. But it's clear what she's needed to do to get to the next level since her junior year of college, and now four years later, she still hasn't. I guess I'd like to think it's effort, because the alternative conclusion is that she was doomed all along, and I don't buy that.

RE: WBB Stanford WNBA - liveoak - 06-09-2025

(06-09-2025, 05:01 PM)BostonCard Wrote:    I think the analysis by Bill Bradley is probably right; the only thing I would add is that you can't will yourself to being an effective shooter.  The undercurrent in this thread and in other posts is that she didn't work on developing her shot and that it was a lack of effort that limited her.  That is certainly possible (and maybe there is some anecdotal evidence that she didn't), but work and effort are necessary but not sufficient to ensure success.  Sometimes no amount of trying is going to overcome limitations. 

I don't completely agree with this. Hailey shot three pointers her freshman but didn't really look for it afterwards and there is no evidence that she ever worked on her shot. In my view, she was a good enough shooter to improve with work and I do believe that you can improve your shooting with work. 

The lack of a three-point shot was the big defect with her game and teams would pack the paint to stop her drives and force her to shoot from long range. The Pac-12 tournament game against UCLA her senior year was an example of this - they knew that if Hailey could drive to the basket she could score at will.

Yes, she has phenomenal basketball skills...and I will always wonder if she could have been better by working on her shot.

RE: WBB Stanford WNBA - BostonCard - 06-09-2025

Maybe you have insights into what she did in practice that the rest of us do not, but otherwise the evidence that she didn’t work on her three point shot seems to be that her three point shot never got better.  But I take it as axiomatic that there are asymptotic limits to how good you can get at anything with practice. If all it took was working on it, then there is no reason that any player couldn’t be as accurate as Caitlyn Clark or Steph Curry.  We accept the premise that “you can’t teach height” and that quickness is engrained, but somehow shooting ability is simply a matter of working on it. But there is probably a physical limit to how precise and consistent one can make a shot.  At a three point distance, even small differences in launch angle and initial velocity can be the difference between a make and a miss, and while practice can improve the neuromuscular connections to improve that consistency, there is undoubtably an upper bound for everyone, and for some people it is simply harder to get that mind/body connection to ensure the shot goes out at the appropriate angle and velocity each and every time.

BC

RE: WBB Stanford WNBA - BobK - 06-10-2025

Take another former Stanford star Brook Lopez. Brook didn’t make a three his first 8 years as a pro. Last 9 years he has averaged about 1.7 per game at about 36%

RE: WBB Stanford WNBA - 2006alum - 06-10-2025

(06-10-2025, 05:48 AM)BobK Wrote:  Take another former Stanford star Brook Lopez. Brook didn’t make a three his first 8 years as a pro.  Last 9 years he has averaged about 1.7 per game at about 36%
Bobk, great point - even late in his career Brook was still growing as a player. And Brook started all but a handful of games his first 6 years in the league, averaged 20ppg, was a nearly 80% ft shooter (as a big), shot roughly 50% and averaged around 7rbs per game. In other words, he did everything he was asked to do as a big, and as his role shifted to more of a stretch forward 3-and-D type player, he added the three ball to evolve into a new role. 

The problem for Jones has just been that she doesn't serve any role especially well. By comparison, she started more than half of her games last season (during a very depleted roster) but averaged only around 4ppg, 70% ft shooting, 2RBs, 2As (paired with 1.7TOs), and an effective fg% of. 418, including 21.4% from outside. Those stats don't suggest she was serving any particular role well, and her most obvious role (as a wing who can also drive to the basket) requires better shooting.

Again, I really like Haley, and I'm looking forward to her future off the court. But as BC said, the W is a very competitive league and requires a player to evolve their game over time. For whatever reason, that hasn't happened with Jones the way it has with other players, including Brook.

RE: WBB Stanford WNBA - BillBradley - 06-10-2025

I agree that players can work on their shot every hour of every day and not be able to shoot like Steph, but I don't think the discussion is about Haley becoming the best shooter on the planet. She's a guard, and she needed to develop a perimeter shot. That's not a tall order. The vast majority of professional basketball guards, when left open, will hit way more than 40% of their 3's. The reason that 40% is the watermark for a great 3 point shooter is that a lot of shots are somewhat contested, off-balance, out of range, etc. There are lots of high level, even all-star caliber players (e.g. Arike Ogunbowale, Sabrina Ionescu,...) who are mid-30's 3 point percentage shooters - nothing to write home about. But you cannot leave them open on the 3 point line. They will easily hit over 50% of wide open 3's. I'm highly confident that Haley could have developed at least a competent shot (meaning, not Steph Curry level) so that opposing defenses couldn't leave her wide open. Did she try? Probably. Did she REALLY try? As in shooting coach, 500 makes a day, every day, every summer? Highly doubtful. I'm pretty sure that if she did she would have become a competent shooter.

RE: WBB Stanford WNBA - jonnyss - 06-10-2025

fwiw haley's contemporary college star, aari mcdonald is on a hardship contract as well - after being an all wnba rookie.

RE: WBB Stanford WNBA - martyup - 06-10-2025

Maybe Jones can play overseas and improve her game.