Outside Topic SoCal Fires - Printable Version
+- The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board)
+-- Forum: C-House! (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: Outside Topic SoCal Fires (/thread-25390.html)
+- The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board)
+-- Forum: C-House! (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: Outside Topic SoCal Fires (/thread-25390.html)
RE: SoCal Fires - Goose - 01-10-2025
(01-10-2025, 07:59 PM)jacket3ree Wrote: This is exactly right. I've designed municipal water systems for nearly 40 years and we do not design them with massive wildfires in mind. Those are natural disaster, Force Majure, Act of God scenarios (even if god is an electric company) and no one can afford water systems capable of fighting that. I've done systems across California, on Maui, and Santa Rose after the Coffee Fire that melted underground distribution piping.It is amazing the expertise that resides on the Cardboard! Thanks for posting this.
I would imagine that the pumping capacity to refill the tanks is at best sized to keep up with the "normal" drain over a 24 hour period plus a safety factor. After all, the water usage isn't constant every hour of the day. The inflow only needs to be adequate to refill the tank at a rate such that it never drops below some desired minimum in "normal" use. If there is a wildfire and the firemen are opening all the hydrants I would guess the pumps could not come close to keeping up with the outflow, even if they were all working 100% full blast. Is that correct? I would also guess that the input water supply is not unlimited either, and if all the surrounding zones are suddenly pumping at full capacity that supply could also become a limiting factor. Is that correct? Thanks again for sharing what you do for your "day job" :-).
RE: SoCal Fires - Mick - 01-10-2025
The Santa Ynez Reservoir in Pacific Palisades was offline because of repairs to its cover...a 117-million gallon reservoir has been empty and offline since February 2024. Would that have alleviated the loss of water to the hydrants?
RE: SoCal Fires - ADPinWDC - 01-10-2025
The level of damage is unconsciounable --
Those responsible for leaving the reservoir unfilled going into fire season WITH WARNINGS, and those responsible for cutting Fire Dept expenses, and failing to train and simulate for these kind of conditions should be held responsible (recalled, asked to resign) -- TO REDUCE FUTURE DAMAGE.
That is not political -- it is called public accountability; their Political Party doesn't matter.
Who made the decisions? Or failed to?
>$150 BILLION in damage, plus deaths and injuries.
A shoulder shrug and prayers are not sufficient.
People will discover now how difficult it will be to get insurance for recovery.
Why were budgets cut, when we know these fires are coming? To save money?
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/gov-newsom-cut-fire-budget-100m-months-lethal-california-fires
RE: SoCal Fires - BostonCard - 01-10-2025
(01-10-2025, 10:36 PM)Mick Wrote: The Santa Ynez Reservoir in Pacific Palisades was offline because of repairs to its cover...a 117-million gallon reservoir has been empty and offline since February 2024. Would that have alleviated the loss of water to the hydrants?
Quote:Those responsible for leaving the reservoir unfilled going into fire season WITH WARNINGS
I would encourage both of you to read Jacketree's lengthy discussion. Unless I completely misread what he wrote, having that reservoir completely filled would not have made any difference in the water pressure of the hydrants because the water pressure is dictated by the availability of water in the local pressure zones, and those systems are designed to deliver enough water for peak use plus a single structure fire, and whatever tanks are in that pressure zone.
No municipal water system is designed to provide enough water from hydrants to fight multiple house fires and wild fire at the same time, full stop. The reservoir being unfilled might have been a sign of poor governance, but if I read jacketree's post correctly, it is not responsible for the inability to fight the fire.
BC
RE: SoCal Fires - jacket3ree - 01-10-2025
(01-10-2025, 10:00 PM)Goose Wrote:(01-10-2025, 07:59 PM)jacket3ree Wrote: This is exactly right. I've designed municipal water systems for nearly 40 years and we do not design them with massive wildfires in mind. Those are natural disaster, Force Majure, Act of God scenarios (even if god is an electric company) and no one can afford water systems capable of fighting that. I've done systems across California, on Maui, and Santa Rose after the Coffee Fire that melted underground distribution piping.It is amazing the expertise that resides on the Cardboard! Thanks for posting this.
I would imagine that the pumping capacity to refill the tanks is at best sized to keep up with the "normal" drain over a 24 hour period plus a safety factor. After all, the water usage isn't constant every hour of the day. The inflow only needs to be adequate to refill the tank at a rate such that it never drops below some desired minimum in "normal" use. If there is a wildfire and the firemen are opening all the hydrants I would guess the pumps could not come close to keeping up with the outflow, even if they were all working 100% full blast. Is that correct? I would also guess that the input water supply is not unlimited either, and if all the surrounding zones are suddenly pumping at full capacity that supply could also become a limiting factor. Is that correct? Thanks again for sharing what you do for your "day job" :-).
This is correct. In a "normal" system, demand is highest in summer and usually twice a day (before work and after work) in a diurnal pattern. Water drains from storage tanks during those periods and fills more slowly during off peak hours based on pumping capacity, or sometimes we'll fill lower zones from higher zones, but that means we need to replenish the tanks in the higher zones from some source.
Most often available fire flows are constrained by the pipe distribution network, particularly the size of pipes and how well they are networked or looped on public and sometimes private streets. Looking at a map of Pacific Palisades, there are a lot of long and dead end streets. It isn't a city block system, which is easier to loop the water lines. Having adequate fire flow in Pacific Palisades is probably challenging. Opposed to say, North San Jose, where we have 18-inch mains and plenty of 12-inch loops and really high residual system pressures all fed by a large turnout and big booster pumps with very large storage tanks. We had a contract to do the fire flow modeling and testing. We would routinely pull 8,000 gpm from several hydrants at an intersection with almost no drop in pressure. Once the police car flipped after the officer volunteered to "block" the flow coming out of our giant sock (we advised against for the record), we convinced Muni Water that there is no reason to perform fire flow tests in NSJ because the system is so robust. But if every commercial building was on fire at the same time? Yeah, they would run out of water.
I don't want to give the impression there are no problems with municipal water systems. Like I said, I make part of my living fixing them. The system in Maui was so not up to snuff, that case settled out after deposition and part of the settlement was to build a new system. That was a fun job in a great location. Most if not all systems have deficiencies. Probably where most of us live. Some have major deficiencies. When water rates go up, that's part of the reason. I can't speak to various systems in L.A. We worked once on a waterline on the PCH in Hermosa Beach. Maybe 30 years ago.
(01-10-2025, 10:36 PM)Mick Wrote: The Santa Ynez Reservoir in Pacific Palisades was offline because of repairs to its cover...a 117-million gallon reservoir has been empty and offline since February 2024. Would that have alleviated the loss of water to the hydrants?
I would need to see system schematics to understand how it all works, but most likely the answer is "no". Maybe they could have held out a little longer, but the distribution systems are simply not sized to deliver that much flow to such a large area all at once.
This is simplistic, but let's try to assess the scale of it all. The idea behind fire fighting is not to save individual buildings per se, but to prevent loss of life and prevent the fire from spreading to more buildings. Codes have established that for a typical single story residential home that requirement is something like 1,500 gallons per minute for two hours. The water distribution system needs to be able to get 1,500 gpm on top of all the other simultaneous demands (normally domestic use and irrigation) without too much loss in pressure. The higher the pressure the better. With the Santa Inez Reservoir out of service, the pressure zones it was feeding had to be switched to something else (another reservoir or pumps or fed through an even higher pressure zone). I don't know if that new controlling pressure was higher or lower.
So if we are only trying to save houses, the 180,000 gallons needed to put out that one fire must come from storage (Santa Ynez) or pumps. Again, what replaced the normal operating storage of Santa Ynez? Likely moot, because they weren't putting out one fire. Everything was on fire. I read that 5,300 structures were lost in the Palisades Fire. Plus how many were saved? I can't find that number, but 2,900 acres were burned. At a density of 3+ homes per acre, let's say there were a total of 9,000 structures threatened, so something like a 60% casualty rate. The fire didn't burn 2,900 acres at once, but it moved fast. To protect say 1,000 homes over two hours requires 1.5 million gallons per minute distributed in the system (pretty unlikely to do that) and 90 million gallons out of storage. That's most of the reservoir's stored water assuming it was full when the fire started and without complicating things, a 1,500 gpm or 4,000 gpm fire flow is a criterion used to evaluate and design systems. What flows out of an open hydrant is a function of the system itself, available water pressure during the event, how many pump trucks are hooked up, how many hoses are going, and other things. As I mentioned elsewhere with our San Jose fire tests, they could be pulling even 20,000 gpm over a few city blocks. A massive fire like that is going to drain all the storage no matter what. As Goose said, there is just no way to fill it up quickly enough, and the systems are not designed to deliver that kind of flow rate for so long. It doesn't matter what is happening at the Hollywood Reservoir or in the Owens River Valley, or Colorado River. This is a water storage and delivery limitation, not a water supply limitation.
A full Sanchez Reservoir probably buys them less than two hours before it is empty (or at least so low that there is no longer operating pressure) and the fire rages on. With winds the way they were, who is to say that even those first thousand homes "saved" while they had water in storage (never mind whether it could actually be delivered without collapsing pipes) would remain saved. I'm sure that people will be simulating that after the fact and taking it to court.
One addendum. Reservoirs do need periodic maintenance and refurbishment and are taken offline. You don't do that at the height of summer demand or the summer/fall fire season. You do it in the normally wettest months with lowest demand. The winter. Like now. Expecting them to have known this was going to happen is grossly unfair. Act of Nature.
RE: SoCal Fires - terry - 01-11-2025
Very interesting info. Thanks, jacket3ree.
RE: SoCal Fires - 82lsju - 01-11-2025
(01-10-2025, 11:24 PM)jacket3ree Wrote:(01-10-2025, 10:00 PM)Goose Wrote:(01-10-2025, 07:59 PM)jacket3ree Wrote: This is exactly right. I've designed municipal water systems for nearly 40 years and we do not design them with massive wildfires in mind. Those are natural disaster, Force Majure, Act of God scenarios (even if god is an electric company) and no one can afford water systems capable of fighting that. I've done systems across California, on Maui, and Santa Rose after the Coffee Fire that melted underground distribution piping.It is amazing the expertise that resides on the Cardboard! Thanks for posting this.
I would imagine that the pumping capacity to refill the tanks is at best sized to keep up with the "normal" drain over a 24 hour period plus a safety factor. After all, the water usage isn't constant every hour of the day. The inflow only needs to be adequate to refill the tank at a rate such that it never drops below some desired minimum in "normal" use. If there is a wildfire and the firemen are opening all the hydrants I would guess the pumps could not come close to keeping up with the outflow, even if they were all working 100% full blast. Is that correct? I would also guess that the input water supply is not unlimited either, and if all the surrounding zones are suddenly pumping at full capacity that supply could also become a limiting factor. Is that correct? Thanks again for sharing what you do for your "day job" :-).
This is correct. In a "normal" system, demand is highest in summer and usually twice a day (before work and after work) in a diurnal pattern. Water drains from storage tanks during those periods and fills more slowly during off peak hours based on pumping capacity, or sometimes we'll fill lower zones from higher zones, but that means we need to replenish the tanks in the higher zones from some source.
Most often available fire flows are constrained by the pipe distribution network, particularly the size of pipes and how well they are networked or looped on public and sometimes private streets. Looking at a map of Pacific Palisades, there are a lot of long and dead end streets. It isn't a city block system, which is easier to loop the water lines. Having adequate fire flow in Pacific Palisades is probably challenging. Opposed to say, North San Jose, where we have 18-inch mains and plenty of 12-inch loops and really high residual system pressures all fed by a large turnout and big booster pumps with very large storage tanks. We had a contract to do the fire flow modeling and testing. We would routinely pull 8,000 gpm from several hydrants at an intersection with almost no drop in pressure. Once the police car flipped after the officer volunteered to "block" the flow coming out of our giant sock (we advised against for the record), we convinced Muni Water that there is no reason to perform fire flow tests in NSJ because the system is so robust. But if every commercial building was on fire at the same time? Yeah, they would run out of water.
I don't want to give the impression there are no problems with municipal water systems. Like I said, I make part of my living fixing them. The system in Maui was so not up to snuff, that case settled out after deposition and part of the settlement was to build a new system. That was a fun job in a great location. Most if not all systems have deficiencies. Probably where most of us live. Some have major deficiencies. When water rates go up, that's part of the reason. I can't speak to various systems in L.A. We worked once on a waterline on the PCH in Hermosa Beach. Maybe 30 years ago.
(01-10-2025, 10:36 PM)Mick Wrote: The Santa Ynez Reservoir in Pacific Palisades was offline because of repairs to its cover...a 117-million gallon reservoir has been empty and offline since February 2024. Would that have alleviated the loss of water to the hydrants?
I would need to see system schematics to understand how it all works, but most likely the answer is "no". Maybe they could have held out a little longer, but the distribution systems are simply not sized to deliver that much flow to such a large area all at once.
This is simplistic, but let's try to assess the scale of it all. The idea behind fire fighting is not to save individual buildings per se, but to prevent loss of life and prevent the fire from spreading to more buildings. Codes have established that for a typical single story residential home that requirement is something like 1,500 gallons per minute for two hours. The water distribution system needs to be able to get 1,500 gpm on top of all the other simultaneous demands (normally domestic use and irrigation) without too much loss in pressure. The higher the pressure the better. With the Santa Inez Reservoir out of service, the pressure zones it was feeding had to be switched to something else (another reservoir or pumps or fed through an even higher pressure zone). I don't know if that new controlling pressure was higher or lower.
So if we are only trying to save houses, the 180,000 gallons needed to put out that one fire must come from storage (Santa Ynez) or pumps. Again, what replaced the normal operating storage of Santa Ynez? Likely moot, because they weren't putting out one fire. Everything was on fire. I read that 5,300 structures were lost in the Palisades Fire. Plus how many were saved? I can't find that number, but 2,900 acres were burned. At a density of 3+ homes per acre, let's say there were a total of 9,000 structures threatened, so something like a 60% casualty rate. The fire didn't burn 2,900 acres at once, but it moved fast. To protect say 1,000 homes over two hours requires 1.5 million gallons per minute distributed in the system (pretty unlikely to do that) and 90 million gallons out of storage. That's most of the reservoir's stored water assuming it was full when the fire started and without complicating things, a 1,500 gpm or 4,000 gpm fire flow is a criterion used to evaluate and design systems. What flows out of an open hydrant is a function of the system itself, available water pressure during the event, how many pump trucks are hooked up, how many hoses are going, and other things. As I mentioned elsewhere with our San Jose fire tests, they could be pulling even 20,000 gpm over a few city blocks. A massive fire like that is going to drain all the storage no matter what. As Goose said, there is just no way to fill it up quickly enough, and the systems are not designed to deliver that kind of flow rate for so long. It doesn't matter what is happening at the Hollywood Reservoir or in the Owens River Valley, or Colorado River. This is a water storage and delivery limitation, not a water supply limitation.
A full Sanchez Reservoir probably buys them less than two hours before it is empty (or at least so low that there is no longer operating pressure) and the fire rages on. With winds the way they were, who is to say that even those first thousand homes "saved" while they had water in storage (never mind whether it could actually be delivered without collapsing pipes) would remain saved. I'm sure that people will be simulating that after the fact and taking it to court.
One addendum. Reservoirs do need periodic maintenance and refurbishment and are taken offline. You don't do that at the height of summer demand or the summer/fall fire season. You do it in the normally wettest months with lowest demand. The winter. Like now. Expecting them to have known this was going to happen is grossly unfair. Act of Nature.
and given the number of houses burning even if you had unlimited water there are only so many fire crews to use the water. In our Northern CA town of ~10,000 households (Los Altos), most of them are in single family homes and we're mostly flat with only a small part of the town in hilly terrain, most are on 1/4 acre lots. There is one fire station in town. Yes there are others in neighboring towns but if our entire town was on fire there would not be enough firefighters. The terrain in Los Altos Hills is more like that in Pacific Palisades, they also have one fire station in town (at Foothill College), there are ~3,000 homes there and they are spaced much further apart as most of Los Altos Hills has one acre lot minimum (and many even larger lots). Lots of the homes are in heavily wooded areas. A fire there would be devastating.
RE: SoCal Fires - Mick - 01-11-2025
Thanks for the multiple responses, jacket3ree. I was curious because the reservoir had been offline for nearly a year for what had been termed minor repairs. But I don't know anything about these things, though I find them interesting...and your expertise is most welcome. I appreciate it.
RE: SoCal Fires - GK3 - 01-11-2025
(01-10-2025, 10:39 PM)ADPinWDC Wrote: The level of damage is unconsciounable --
Those responsible for leaving the reservoir unfilled going into fire season WITH WARNINGS, and those responsible for cutting Fire Dept expenses, and failing to train and simulate for these kind of conditions should be held responsible (recalled, asked to resign) -- TO REDUCE FUTURE DAMAGE.
That is not political -- it is called public accountability; their Political Party doesn't matter.
Who made the decisions? Or failed to?
>$150 BILLION in damage, plus deaths and injuries.
A shoulder shrug and prayers are not sufficient.
People will discover now how difficult it will be to get insurance for recovery.
Why were budgets cut, when we know these fires are coming? To save money?
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/gov-newsom-cut-fire-budget-100m-months-lethal-california-fires
I can understand your frustration, but I think saying that "...we knew the fires were coming'" is a bit over the top. Yes, everyone who lives, or has lived in Souithern California knows the Santa Ana winds will almost always come, but you don't know where they will be strongest, nor do you know how strong they will be or how long they will last. As the previous poster points out city hydrant systems are not designed to fight these kinds of fires. As he point out another fire in Northern California was hot enough to melt the pipe in the ground. I do not think hydrant systems are designed to provide enough water to cool things down enough to make any difference. The further the hydrant is from the water source the more often the pipe feeding it is smaller than the pipe feeding those closer to the source. Pipe I believe has to be narrowed to keep pressure up. Smaller pipe means less water comes out for the same pressure. The fire department apparently felt it needed to do other things than inspect fire abatement in areas of greater risk. That seems like a poor decision if in fact that happened. As others have said this disaster is pretty much an Act of God. More important to focus on how we can help those affected. The State is going to have to figure out how to deal with the future insurance problem. SGE is going to have to think about burying power lines serving high risk areas.
Now I will get on my soap box and say that the State should not be allowed to pass all of their losses on to rate payers as PG&E has pretty much been allowed to do in parts of Northern California. Another question is what do we do about all the old developments build 60 or 70 years ago and still close to brushy areas and which have too many houses, too close together and streets too narrow? How many of these houses still have dried out shingle roofs rather than something far more fire retardent? When people look back on this they are going to find lots and lots of things that could have been done differently over the years preceeding this disaster and contributed to it. But the principal culprit will still turn out to be the extraordinary winds, the lack of moisture and too many highly combustible things too close together.
RE: SoCal Fires - M T - 01-11-2025
There are different natural disasters that befall the US that damage and destroy structures. In addition to wildfires, there are hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes. Those are somewhat regional in extent. Communities prepare for their perceived risks with policies and infrastructure. There is a balance between preparation for a risk and all the other pressing needs of society. For example, it would be unwise and unpopular for California to institute a draft to have a very large firefighting force available, just in case. You wouldn't want to build a 20-foot sea wall across Miami Beach, just in case.
By the way, a nice touch in the coverage is the automatic overlay of roads on live video from helicopters. I wish they also put a North indicator, and preferably an inset to show where the scene is in a wider view.
If you aren't aware, you can look at the permanent wildfire cams.
I thought the Cal Fire site map showed air resources, but I don't see it updating. You can look at the general aircraft maps such as PlaneFinder to see the aircraft as they move around.
It struck me that I didn't know how fire retardant works. Wikipedia helped on that. Interestingly, there are products that homeowners could use to try to protect their property.
Quote:Phos-Chek also has a consumer-based fire retardant spray called Wildfire Home Defense that is effective immediately after application and that remains effective until it is washed off with heavy water levels. It is designed to be applied to fuel beds around homes and outbuildings to create a firebreak in the fuels leading up to each structure.
Ember Bloc is another consumer-based fire retardant gel that can be applied to the exterior of one's house and nearby structures to help protect against both embers and flames in a wildfire. It has a unique ability to cling onto the side of a house to withstand high heat and windy conditions
I'm going to think about what I'd grab to take with me... if I have 5 minutes, 15 minutes, or 15 hours to evacuate. I was also reminded to take a video of the contents & exterior of my house (and store it offsite).
Cal Fire has a nice pamphlet showing the various aircraft they use (14 types of fixed wing aircraft and 19 kinds of helicopters).
RE: SoCal Fires - fullmetal - 01-11-2025
Thank you, jacket3ree, for that pretty comprehensive analysis. There is so much that the layperson doesn't know!
I read this insightful article from the LA Times today:
Inconvenient truths about the fires burning in Los Angeles from two fire experts
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2025-01-11/fire-experts-asses-los-angeles-blazes-amid-changing-times
Quote:“We have fire departments that are continually telling us that they’re going to protect us,” he said, “when they can’t during the extreme wildfire conditions. It’s time to recognize the reality and start asking questions about how it is that we’re failing to prevent this disaster.”
Cohen calls it a sense of entitlement that we will be protected, a feeling that is reinforced by fire protection agencies, even when it’s unrealistic.
The National Fire Prevention Assn., a national nonprofit that provides standards for fire suppression operations, calls for a minimum of three engines or 15 firefighters for a single-residence fire, a number that is impossible to attain when fighting a fire on the scale of the Palisades or Eaton fires.
“We’re not recognizing, analyzing, questioning how we’re failing,” Cohen said. “We just think we need more airplanes and more helicopters flying 24 hours a day.”
More CL-415 super-scoopers or Firehawk helicopters will not help when water is being dropped into 60 mph wind gusts.
“We don’t necessarily need a trillion-dollar program and a fire czar to get control of the fire problem,” Pyne said. “What we need are a thousand things that tweak the environment in favorable ways such that we can prevent these eruptions.”
The different ways by which fires spread in an urban environment necessitate a lot of community work to prevent/harden neighborhoods against suburban fire spreading (much like a pandemic response, I'm wondering).
RE: SoCal Fires - jacket3ree - 01-11-2025
(01-11-2025, 11:57 AM)M T Wrote: There are different natural disasters that befall the US that damage and destroy structures. In addition to wildfires, there are hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes. Those are somewhat regional in extent. Communities prepare for their perceived risks with policies and infrastructure. There is a balance between preparation for a risk and all the other pressing needs of society. For example, it would be unwise and unpopular for California to institute a draft to have a very large firefighting force available, just in case. You wouldn't want to build a 20-foot sea wall across Miami Beach, just in case.
By the way, a nice touch in the coverage is the automatic overlay of roads on live video from helicopters. I wish they also put a North indicator, and preferably an inset to show where the scene is in a wider view.
If you aren't aware, you can look at the permanent wildfire cams.
I thought the Cal Fire site map showed air resources, but I don't see it updating. You can look at the general aircraft maps such as PlaneFinder to see the aircraft as they move around.
It struck me that I didn't know how fire retardant works. Wikipedia helped on that. Interestingly, there are products that homeowners could use to try to protect their property.
Quote:Phos-Chek also has a consumer-based fire retardant spray called Wildfire Home Defense that is effective immediately after application and that remains effective until it is washed off with heavy water levels. It is designed to be applied to fuel beds around homes and outbuildings to create a firebreak in the fuels leading up to each structure.
Ember Bloc is another consumer-based fire retardant gel that can be applied to the exterior of one's house and nearby structures to help protect against both embers and flames in a wildfire. It has a unique ability to cling onto the side of a house to withstand high heat and windy conditions
I'm going to think about what I'd grab to take with me... if I have 5 minutes, 15 minutes, or 15 hours to evacuate. I was also reminded to take a video of the contents & exterior of my house (and store it offsite).
Well said. Thanks. And as as fullmetal notes, there are many inconvenient truths that will be hashed out in court and in public hearings as they should. We all make decisions relative to risk. (You can add flooding to your list of natural disasters.) It is less than one percent of my practice, but I've done forensics and testimony for many years. We do "but for" analyses and assess whether actors acted reasonably. All subject to judge and jury interpretation. Often this statement will pop up: "I can't believe they live here, it's so risky!" [I came up with the edit and think it applies.]
RE: SoCal Fires - old spanish trail - 01-11-2025
(01-10-2025, 10:39 PM)ADPinWDC Wrote: The level of damage is unconsciounable --
Those responsible for leaving the reservoir unfilled going into fire season WITH WARNINGS, and those responsible for cutting Fire Dept expenses, and failing to train and simulate for these kind of conditions should be held responsible (recalled, asked to resign) -- TO REDUCE FUTURE DAMAGE.
That is not political -- it is called public accountability; their Political Party doesn't matter.
Who made the decisions? Or failed to?
>$150 BILLION in damage, plus deaths and injuries.
A shoulder shrug and prayers are not sufficient.
People will discover now how difficult it will be to get insurance for recovery.
Why were budgets cut, when we know these fires are coming? To save money?
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/gov-newsom-cut-fire-budget-100m-months-lethal-california-fires
ADP, it's unfortunate that Jacketree's great analysis won't get to Fox News and Breitbart, and wouldn't be used if it did. You, at least, have it at your disposal. I hope you will read it.
RE: SoCal Fires - cardcrimson - 01-11-2025
Last month, the LA Fire Chief sent a letter to the mayor and the council members complaining about the lack of funding, that the financial restrictions were preventing them from preparing for a natural disaster such as a wildfire or earthquake. Apparently, the chief went on TV and complained about it a couple of days ago. Quite a brouhaha erupted afterwards between her and the mayor. A link to the letter is in the article from the LA Times below:
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2025-01-11/l-a-fire-chief-raises-alarm-over-funding-saying-the-city-failed-her-agency
Not sure of the accuracy of this, but the story is making the rounds on the internet. Apparently Bass demanded another $49 million in cuts from the fire department, according to a leaked copy of the email sent from the leadership of department to station chiefs. The demand came just days before the fires:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14271021/los-angeles-mayor-karen-bass-fires-department-budget-cuts.html
jacketree. Thanks for the info; great expertise! Lots to understand. Biden has commented on two different occasions that the utilities cut the power off due to concerns over the winds and power lines and that's why the hydrants ran dry. I'd think that the pumping stations would have their own power supplies, is that not the case?
(01-11-2025, 01:16 PM)old spanish trail Wrote:(01-10-2025, 10:39 PM)ADPinWDC Wrote: The level of damage is unconsciounable --
Those responsible for leaving the reservoir unfilled going into fire season WITH WARNINGS, and those responsible for cutting Fire Dept expenses, and failing to train and simulate for these kind of conditions should be held responsible (recalled, asked to resign) -- TO REDUCE FUTURE DAMAGE.
That is not political -- it is called public accountability; their Political Party doesn't matter.
Who made the decisions? Or failed to?
>$150 BILLION in damage, plus deaths and injuries.
A shoulder shrug and prayers are not sufficient.
People will discover now how difficult it will be to get insurance for recovery.
Why were budgets cut, when we know these fires are coming? To save money?
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/gov-newsom-cut-fire-budget-100m-months-lethal-california-fires
ADP, it's unfortunate that Jacketree's great analysis won't get to Fox News and Breitbart, and wouldn't be used if it did. You, at least, have it at your disposal. I hope you will read it.
Um, did you read Jacketree's last line? "This came up on something I was watching making dinner. (CNN maybe?) 'How can the hydrants run dry?Incompetence!' I had to turn it off."
This has been a great discussion, we don't need political shots that could get it shut down.
RE: SoCal Fires - ADPinWDC - 01-11-2025
This is not about politics.
LA Times here (Dec 13) and weather services ALL had the high winds forecast TWO WEEKS before the disaster " in bone dry conditions".
These are not tornadoes.
Dec. 13 LA Times: They knew...
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-12-13/when-will-the-fire-threat-in-southern-california-finally-die-down
Plenty of time to fill the Reservoir for Palisades.
Enough time to pre position and stock up Fire Dept resources (trucks, firefighters, drop planes, logistical equipment, temporary gen sets... )
We have all seen these fires before. Everyone knows how quick and damaging the potential disaster can be.
Not me, not the Republican legislators, but Gov Newsom himself, a Democrat, is ordering an investigation into the poor preparation.
Two days ago, the Fire Chief Crowley herself, confirmed to reporters that the City Council and Mayor "failed" the efforts by cutting LAFD Budget. She said that. Not me.
Mayor Bass left for Ghana on Saturday Jan 4, knowing the forecast for "High winds, and dangerous conditions" across her entire jurisdiction, which was widely publicized.
Where was the order to fill the reservoirs and prepare?
How did DWP prepare? Newsom is investigating.
How is LA going to "rebuild" when they have no idea where Insurance Cos and funds are going to come from for >$200 BILLION in damages (the fires are sadly still burning)? FEMA and SBA are providing some initial assistance in small amounts. Not $billions, not close.
Finally, some of the Natl Guard are mobilized.
Example: Back in Feb 2021, for the Texas Freeze Fiasco and $16 billion in emergency energy costs (my mostly for power and fuel delivered -- the entire Board of ERCOT was DISMISSED for cause, poor preparation planning and miserable execution. Political Party doesn't matter.
Who is accountable to the public for preparation fail on a grand scale? How can this be prevented?!
SoCal has suffered permanent damage from this -- and I lived there from 1980-98. Each of my four kids were born in the Pasadena area. One still lives there in Pasadena; she evacuated to Oregon and now Palm Springs.
A lot of small businesses are just torched.
Some will not return. Schools will suffer further.
Palisades looks like Gaza.
The local tax base cannot support rebuilding.
State and Federal budgets are very strained.
Future funding sources do not have confidence in the LA leadership.
SAD.
RE: SoCal Fires - BostonCard - 01-11-2025
This thread keeps getting reported. Let’s please stick to just discussion of the current state of the fires and how they are being faught, and supporting affected individuals. Whether you like it or not, recriminations, “coulda, woulda, ahoulda”’s etc are going to be viewed as political so please stop.
BC
RE: SoCal Fires - 82lsju - 01-11-2025
(01-10-2025, 08:53 PM)martyup Wrote: North Idaho fire departments sent crews and equipment 1300 miles south to assist in fighting the LA basin fires.
https://www.facebook.com/plugins/post.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FNorthIdahoNews%2Fposts%2Fpfbid0nAgL3DnkvZcQNMi2NRvt4P9PECDwtMGSrRqDMXEMrnq36Aj8eFVzQPMQucMge2j3l&show
as well as help from Canada
https://globalnews.ca/news/10952465/los-angeles-wildfires-canada-support-rcaf/
unfortunately one of the Canadian "super scooper" planes was damaged by a drone
https://www.cnn.com/2025/01/10/us/super-scooper-drone-collision-la-fire-canada-hnk-intl/index.html
RE: SoCal Fires - oldalum - 01-11-2025
My neighbor's son is the crew boss of a Washington State Forest Service firefighter team. They specialize in fighting mountain forest fires. They had been stationed in SoCal for a couple weeks in December, then returned to Washington. Drove down again and have been assigned to the Eaton fire. I'm sure other teams from Washington are there now, too.
RE: SoCal Fires - cardcrimson - 01-11-2025
(01-11-2025, 06:24 PM)oldalum Wrote: My neighbor's son is the crew boss of a Washington State Forest Service firefighter team. They specialize in fighting mountain forest fires. They had been stationed in SoCal for a couple weeks in December, then returned to Washington. Drove down again and have been assigned to the Eaton fire. I'm sure other teams from Washington are there now, too.
Thank him and his team for their service. Why were they here in December?
RE: SoCal Fires - Nobadeer - 01-11-2025
Interesting info from Jacket and ADP-WDC (does ADP stand for the Alpha Delts? cool house on lake Lag. although I don't remember the ADPs getting too worked up about anything!).
LA, like many large US cities, seems to function precariously even under the best of ideal circumstances. I wonder if the IOC is reconsidering the 2028 Olympics.
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2025-01-11/fire-experts-asses-los-angeles-blazes-amid-changing-times