Outside Topic SF Giants 2025 - Printable Version
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RE: SF Giants 2025 - Giants - 02-02-2025
Mick dateline='[url=tel:1738439781' Wrote: 1738439781[/url]']
I really hope Buster was deking the entire baseball world when he stated that we were done with the lineup that we have. We missed the wild card spot by nine games which is a big number. Also missing the playoffs, but in front of us were the DBacks (89 wins), the Cubs and Cardinals (83 each).
The odds of making the playoffs are stacked against SF this year. My expectations are focused on seeing more athleticism, better defense and timely hitting. While that doesn’t necessarily mean the Giants are playoff bound, it does mean they will be moving back towards being a contender down the road. If nothing else, I am hopeful the days of taking pitches down the middle are over. Good riddance to Zaidi baseball.
I don't see the Dodgers (98 wins), Philllies (95), Brewers (93) or Padres (93) falling off much, though the Brewers may drop back a bit. The Braves, Mets and Diamondbacks all won 89.
It will take a minor miracle for the Giants to sniff the playoffs. We lost Snell (2.1), Soler (1.1), Conforto (1.3) and Ta. Rogers (1.1), but not much else. Sabol (0.3). Estrada was -0.5.
This is addition by subtraction. I was happy to see all of those guys leave.
Here's what I think needs to happen -- at least 75% of this -- for the Giants to get into the playoffs:
1. Adames needs to keep form, in fact improve a bit from his 3.1 WAR...seems odd his WAR was that low with 32 HRs.
He had a poor year defensively. That had a significant impact on his WAR. Playing league average SS should pump his WAR by at least a point.
2. Chapman can't slip, needs at least 6.0 WAR (had 7.1).
Yep.
3. Wade and Flores needs to return to form and get near .800 OPS (up from .761 and .595 and I sure hope it was just the knee for Wilmer).
Keeping the seat warm for Eldridge by playing league average both at bat and in the field is pretty all we can hope for.
4. Fitzgerald needs to avoid the sophomore slump and keep it up for a full year. It could happen.
Yep.
5. Yaz needs a 2.5 WAR year
I don’t see Yaz being the key to creating a plus situation in RF. SF needs either Matos or Luciano to step up this year and post some numbers.
6. Bailey needs to extend his hitting from May through the rest of the year. Big ask, I know but he came around in September so it could happen. And a backup catcher needs to emerge.
It’s all about sustaining his spring stats into summer. Can he do it? If the Giants want to contend in the future, Bailey has to produce. He may be the most important player on the team.
7. Jung Hoo Lee needs to be a legitimate leadoff man, .375 OBP up from .310. With his contact skills (only 13 strikeouts in 145 ABs) he could get there. Most importantly, he needs to figure it out against the good teams. He kills it against the Nationals, Rockies, Marlins and D'Backs.
It’s anyone’s guess regarding how he will do. Due to his injury, he is really a rookie heading into the season.
8. Oddly enough, I'm not worried about fielding. Ramos/Lee/Yaz should be fine in the OF, we have gold glovers at C, 3B and SS. When healthy, both Wade and Flores are more than competent. But we need to have a big rebound.
I agree. As a whole, it will be nice to finally watch guys who can field their position effectively.
9. Would be nice if Encarnacion could improve, and after a MLB season if he could get to .750 OPS (from .701), that would be acceptable. Failing that, Matos or Luciano would have to improve -- a lot. Hopefully, one of them will be the Ramos of 2025.
I think we will see a lot of mixing and matching at the DH spot. League average might be all we can hope for.
10. I'm cautiously optimistic about the starting pitching. I realize they're overloaded with starters, and I sure hope they can find five that don't suck.
This is an area where I am optimistic. I’m looking forward to seeing what the young guys can do. The future depends on them making significant headway this season.
11. Webb needs some fielding support.
And I think he will get it.
12. Robbie Ray needs a full return from surgery. This is his year.
We will know by June whether picking him up was a smart decision. I have my doubts.
13. Whatever was bothering Doval needs to be gone. Walker will be the closer, but Doval is still necessary.
Yep.
14. The good pitchers can't fall back; e.g., Tyler Rogers and Hjelle.
I believe this is the best unit on the team. I have a lot of confidence that the bullpen will be effective this year because the starters won’t need consistent bailing out after four innings. They shouldn’t be worn out by August (as in years past).
15. The injured pitchers from last year need to step up (Hicks, Beck, Winn, etc.).
A new regime equals better staff management.
16. Hicks needs to extend. He did 109 innings, would be nice if he could get to 140.
He learned a lot last year. Applying those learnings will yield at least 140 innings.
17. The young pitchers on the cusp of greatness need to step up. Birdsong, Harrison, Roupp, Bivens, Black, etc.
I think that at least a couple of them will.
18. Verlander needs to win 13.
Wow! That’s optimistic. I think 10 is pretty much all we can expect.
19. We need strong seasons from three of these five: Meckler, Wisely, McCray, Villar and/or Schmitt.
Another Wow! Comment. Heck, if even one of that group produces at league average, I would be surprised.
20. A big minor league or free agent surprise, maybe Sam Huff who had a great 2023.
While I do not expect anyone will come out of spring training with Randy Elliot numbers, I do expect a big mid-season deal if the Giants are reasonably close to the group vying for a playoff spot. Unlike his predecessor, I think Posey will be a player at the trade deadline.
I think 15 of the 20 need to happen for the Giants to have a shot at the playoffs.
As noted earlier, I believe the playoffs are a long shot at best this year. At this point, I’m in the 75-80 wins camp. Once we get closer to Opening Day, it will be time to post the annual prediction.
The Giants finished 17th in runs per game at 4.28, below MLB average of 4.39.
The Giants finished 16th in runs allowed per game at 4.31, just better than the 4.39 average.
The Giants finished 27th in Rtot (-46) in fielding. That's not good. They were average in errors and fielding percentage, actually finished 8th in DPs.
WAR by position. Disastrous at most positions:
3B 1st. Stay healthy, Chappy.
RF 12th. Congrats, Yaz, you get to keep your job.
1B 15th. Eldridge can't come fast enough.
RP 15th. Relief pitching was slightly better than average.
LF 17th. Ramos should improve that.
C 19th. If Bailey bats better, this should improve.
CF 21st. Lee should improve that.
DH 21st. Can Jerar do better?
SP 21st. Starting pitchers should do better this year.
SS 23rd...but Milwaukee (Adames) was only 19th. Hmmmm.
2B 28th. Hopefully Fitzpatrick changes that.
It's said you need to be strong up the middle. C, CF, SS and 2B don't look particularly strong.
Thoughts?
RE: SF Giants 2025 - Mick - 02-03-2025
Thoughts on your thoughts...
It will take a minor miracle for the Giants to sniff the playoffs. We lost Snell (2.1), Soler (1.1), Conforto (1.3) and Ta. Rogers (1.1), but not much else. Sabol (0.3). Estrada was -0.5.
This is addition by subtraction. I was happy to see all of those guys leave. Same...all easily replaceable with what we have and for much less $$$. BTW, just wondering...Brandon Belt. He hasn't formally retired. .858 OPS in 2023 with Toronto. Only Yaz and Wade are full-time lefty bats. Excellent fielding first baseman, 43 career Rtot at 1B, better than average range. Why not invite him to camp?
6. Bailey needs to extend his hitting from May through the rest of the year. Big ask, I know but he came around in September so it could happen. And a backup catcher needs to emerge.
It’s all about sustaining his spring stats into summer. Can he do it? If the Giants want to contend in the future, Bailey has to produce. He may be the most important player on the team. Have to agree. I'm at a loss as to why he broke down so much and so quickly. Hopefully he has the stamina this year.
7. Jung Hoo Lee needs to be a legitimate leadoff man, .375 OBP up from .310. With his contact skills (only 13 strikeouts in 145 ABs) he could get there. Most importantly, he needs to figure it out against the good teams. He kills it against the Nationals, Rockies, Marlins and D'Backs.
It’s anyone’s guess regarding how he will do. Due to his injury, he is really a rookie heading into the season. Hopefully he can adjust. He's not a kid, he's 26 this year.
8. Oddly enough, I'm not worried about fielding. Ramos/Lee/Yaz should be fine in the OF, we have gold glovers at C, 3B and SS. When healthy, both Wade and Flores are more than competent. But we need to have a big rebound.
I agree. As a whole, it will be nice to finally watch guys who can field their position effectively. The Giants had the fifth-largest difference between ERA and FIP in MLB which augurs well for better fielding If they perform average to better-than-average defense...which they did three years ago...maybe they give up fewer runs. I'm torn because the Giants allowed the second fewest unearned runs (46) in MLB which argues the other direction. Conversely, they were 24th in WHIP. If, between the improvement of the young pitchers, the addition of the new pitchers, the subtraction of the ineffective pitchers they can get to just average in WHIP (from 1.301 to 1.248), then maybe they give up 40 fewer runs. The Giants were 24-24 in one-run games last year. If they go 32-16, that's a eight game improvement.
10. I'm cautiously optimistic about the starting pitching. I realize they're overloaded with starters, and I sure hope they can find five that don't suck.
This is an area where I am optimistic. I’m looking forward to seeing what the young guys can do. The future depends on them making significant headway this season. If we can get into the top 1/3rd of pitching, I think we can win in the high 80s.
12. Robbie Ray needs a full return from surgery. This is his year.
We will know by June whether picking him up was a smart decision. I have my doubts. I take his July vs. August splits as a good thing. His July batting-against splits were .212 .350 .485 .835 and his August splits were materially improved at .178 .307 .343 .649. So I think he should work out.
13. Whatever was bothering Doval needs to be gone. Walker will be the closer, but Doval is still necessary.
Yep. Doval was all over the map last year. Had an okay April March and a great May. Flat out tanked in June and July. Had a terrific August and a mediocre Sept/Oct. I know the pitching coach can speak Spanish, hope there are fewer communications issues.
15. The injured pitchers from last year need to step up (Hicks, Beck, Winn, etc.).
A new regime equals better staff management. I think we'll see more discipline, fewer stupid errors, fewer lineup idiocies (if Farhan was really dictating lineups...man, I don't even know what to say about that), and fewer injuries.
16. Hicks needs to extend. He did 109 innings, would be nice if he could get to 140.
He learned a lot last year. Applying those learnings will yield at least 140 innings. Maybe. Last year's 109 was 40 more than the 65 2/3 he threw in 2023. Be nice if he can extend.
17. The young pitchers on the cusp of greatness need to step up. Birdsong, Harrison, Roupp, Bivens, Black, etc.
I think that at least a couple of them will. I have the greatest confidence in this, actually. I think the additional year, better discipline, current pitching coach will result in collective improvement.
19. We need strong seasons from three of these five: Meckler, Wisely, McCray, Villar and/or Schmitt.
Another Wow! Comment. Heck, if even one of that group produces at league average, I would be surprised. I think two will be league average or better. Schmitt has figured it out. He'll have a very strong year. Villar was actually better than his career average last year (.727 OPS vs. .688) and was close to league average. The other three...meh. Wisely...it would be a surprise. He improved materially from 2023 to 2024 (.497 OPS to .623) but his splits gradually worsened by month, from .845 OPS in May to .495 in Sept/Oct. Meckler wasn't even with the big club though he OPS of .866 in Sacto and cut way down on strikeouts. And I will stipulate that McCray is unlikely to have a strong season. But he's only 24.
20. A big minor league or free agent surprise, maybe Sam Huff who had a great 2023.
While I do not expect anyone will come out of spring training with Randy Elliot numbers, I do expect a big mid-season deal if the Giants are reasonably close to the group vying for a playoff spot. Unlike his predecessor, I think Posey will be a player at the trade deadline. I think you're right, if we're within 2-3 games of a playoff spot by July 30. And I think Huff will do well....258/.313/.455/.768 career numbers for Texas. He's 27. Had fielding issues in 2022, but fielded well in 2023 and 2024, no passed balls or errors. He can play some 1B, BTW. Huff did well in the 2019 futures game, hit a two run home run and was the MVP.
The Giants finished 17th in runs per game at 4.28, below MLB average of 4.39.
The Giants finished 16th in runs allowed per game at 4.31, just better than the 4.39 average.
The Giants finished 27th in Rtot (-46) in fielding. That's not good. They were average in errors and fielding percentage, actually finished 8th in DPs.
As noted earlier, I believe the playoffs are a long shot at best this year. At this point, I’m in the 75-80 wins camp. Once we get closer to Opening Day, it will be time to post the annual prediction. If we can finish 9th in runs allowed per game, 8th in fielding and 12th in runs scored...all of which are within reach, assuming better management, better coaching, better training, better discipline, fewer injuries, more maturity, less field-level meddling from the front office and a judicious acquisition at the trade deadline...then I think our 80 wins become 88 wins and maybe we sneak into the playoffs. Particularly with injuries. We had T6th most injured players (25), 6th most lost payroll, and 12th most days lost of all MLB teams.
RE: SF Giants 2025 - Giants - 02-03-2025
A quick note re: why getting to 88 will be a struggle - the NL West is loaded. It is probably the best overall division in baseball. Unfortunately for SF, that means playing thirteen games v. LA, SD, AZ (and the Rockies) while their wild card rivals in the other divisions only play them six times.
I think the playoffs are a bridge too far…..
RE: SF Giants 2025 - Mick - 02-03-2025
(02-03-2025, 01:32 PM)Giants Wrote: A quick note re: why getting to 88 will be a struggle - the NL West is loaded. It is probably the best overall division in baseball. Unfortunately for SF, that means playing thirteen games v. LA, SD, AZ (and the Rockies) while their wild card rivals in the other divisions only play them six times.
I think the playoffs are a bridge too far…..
I wonder about that. The Giants actually did slightly better against their division than the rest of baseball last year. They were 26-26 against the teams you mentioned (.500) and 54-56 against the rest of MLB (.491). They went 23-23 against the AL (.500) and 31-33 against the NL teams not in the West division (.484).
Their real problems are against the better teams and the teams just ahead of them. They only won 2 of 7 against Philly and 1 of 6 against St. Louis. They were 3-6 against the three AL division champs and 8-18 against the NL division champs.
RE: SF Giants 2025 - Giants - 02-03-2025
(02-03-2025, 03:06 PM)Mick Wrote:(02-03-2025, 01:32 PM)Giants Wrote: A quick note re: why getting to 88 will be a struggle - the NL West is loaded. It is probably the best overall division in baseball. Unfortunately for SF, that means playing thirteen games v. LA, SD, AZ (and the Rockies) while their wild card rivals in the other divisions only play them six times.
I think the playoffs are a bridge too far…..
I wonder about that. The Giants actually did slightly better against their division than the rest of baseball last year. They were 26-26 against the teams you mentioned (.500) and 54-56 against the rest of MLB (.491). They went 23-23 against the AL (.500) and 31-33 against the NL teams not in the West division (.484).
Their real problems are against the better teams and the teams just ahead of them. They only won 2 of 7 against Philly and 1 of 6 against St. Louis. They were 3-6 against the three AL division champs and 8-18 against the NL division champs.
Yeah, the Rockies are a real punching bag. SF was 10-3 v. Colorado last year. Maybe SF can petition to switch a series from LA to Denver.
RE: SF Giants 2025 - Mick - 02-03-2025
(02-03-2025, 05:11 PM)Giants Wrote:(02-03-2025, 03:06 PM)Mick Wrote:(02-03-2025, 01:32 PM)Giants Wrote: A quick note re: why getting to 88 will be a struggle - the NL West is loaded. It is probably the best overall division in baseball. Unfortunately for SF, that means playing thirteen games v. LA, SD, AZ (and the Rockies) while their wild card rivals in the other divisions only play them six times.
I think the playoffs are a bridge too far…..
I wonder about that. The Giants actually did slightly better against their division than the rest of baseball last year. They were 26-26 against the teams you mentioned (.500) and 54-56 against the rest of MLB (.491). They went 23-23 against the AL (.500) and 31-33 against the NL teams not in the West division (.484).
Their real problems are against the better teams and the teams just ahead of them. They only won 2 of 7 against Philly and 1 of 6 against St. Louis. They were 3-6 against the three AL division champs and 8-18 against the NL division champs.
Yeah, the Rockies are a real punching bag. SF was 10-3 v. Colorado last year. Maybe SF can petition to switch a series from LA to Denver.
They smoked the Rockies, true. And they got smoked by the Dodgers (4-9). They basically played the Padres and Diamondbacks to a near-standstill, going 6-7 against each.
RE: SF Giants 2025 - Giants - 02-03-2025
How timely….
Today, Baseball Prospectus published their PECOTA (Player Empirical Comparison and Optimization Test Algorithim) projections for the 2025 season.
Here are the NL projected win totals:
LA 103.8
ATL 92.4
CHI 90.6
NY 88.9
PHI 87.5
AZ 86.4
SD 82.5
MIL 80.2
STL 78.6
SF 78.0
PIT 75.1
WAS 74.2
CIN 73.5
MIA 62.3
COL 55.5
I would increase the Dodger win total, reverse the Braves and Mets figures and bump St. Louis down a couple wins. Otherwise, I think it is as good a look forward as we will see between now and the end of March.
A couple additional notes relating to the Giants:
Projected chance to make the playoffs: 15%
Projected runs scored 663 (4.09/gm)
Projected runs against 691 (4.27/gm)
RE: SF Giants 2025 - Mick - 02-04-2025
Do you think former Giant OF Kenny Lofton belongs in the Hall of Fame?
Rk Player Age From To G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GIDP HBP SH SF IBB
1 Kenny Lofton 24-40 1991 2007 2103 9235 8120 1528 2428 383 116 130 781 622 160 945 1016 .299 .372 .423 .794 107 3433 111 32 72 65 43
2 Ichiro Suzuki 27-45 2001 2019 2653 10734 9934 1420 3089 362 96 117 780 509 117 647 1080 .311 .355 .402 .757 107 3994 92 55 50 48 181
Lofton had more WAR, career runs, doubles, triples, home runs, RBIs, stolen bases (and caught stealing), walks, OBP, SLG, OPS.
Ichiro had far more ABs (1,800+ more), singles, strikeouts, batting average, gold gloves, all-star appearances, batting titles and silver sluggers
Both had 107 OPS+
Ichiro Suzuki vs. Kenny Lofton: Head-to-Head Stats Comparison | Stathead.com
RE: SF Giants 2025 - BobK - 02-04-2025
No on Lofton Great Basketball player also
RE: SF Giants 2025 - BostonCard - 02-04-2025
Ichiro got started later due to playing in the Japanese league.
BC
RE: SF Giants 2025 - Giants - 02-04-2025
(02-04-2025, 10:32 AM)BobK Wrote: No on Lofton Great Basketball player also
I agree with Bob.
RE: SF Giants 2025 - Mick - 02-04-2025
This is a list of prominent second basemen, listed by offensive statistics in declining order of OPS+, with WAR and JAWS. Their names are excluded. Based upon these stats, which are in the Hall of Fame? BTW, six of them played for the Giants at one time or another.
WAR JAWS OPS+
127 100.5 175
106.9 83.5 150
124.3 94.3 142
63.9 57.7 133
100.6 80 132
81.2 65.5 131
84.7 68.8 125
55.4 45.6 123
47.6 40.8 121
55.6 50.2 120
67 55 116
51.4 44.1 115
67.9 57.5 114
65.5 53.6 112
57.4 47.6 112
71.8 58.3 110
52.5 40.9 107
47.7 40.5 106
49.4 43.3 94
44.8 38.8 94
36.5 31.3 84
RE: SF Giants 2025 - Mick - 02-05-2025
(02-04-2025, 04:08 PM)Mick Wrote: This is a list of prominent second basemen, listed by offensive statistics in declining order of OPS+, with WAR and JAWS. Their names are excluded. Based upon these stats, which are in the Hall of Fame? BTW, six of them played for the Giants at one time or another.
WAR JAWS OPS+
127 100.5 175
106.9 83.5 150
124.3 94.3 142
63.9 57.7 133
100.6 80 132
81.2 65.5 131
84.7 68.8 125
55.4 45.6 123
47.6 40.8 121
55.6 50.2 120
67 55 116
51.4 44.1 115
67.9 57.5 114
65.5 53.6 112
57.4 47.6 112
71.8 58.3 110
52.5 40.9 107
47.7 40.5 106
49.4 43.3 94
44.8 38.8 94
36.5 31.3 84
All are Hall of Famers, save for one former Giant.
WAR JAWS OPS+
Rogers Hornsby HOF 127 100.5 175 Giants
Nap Lajoie HOF 106.9 83.5 150
Eddie Collins HOF 124.3 94.3 142
Jackie Robinson HOF 63.9 57.7 133
Joe Morgan HOF 100.6 80 132 Giants
Rod Carew HOF 81.2 65.5 131
Charlie Gehringer HOF 84.7 68.8 125
Jeff Kent 55.4 45.6 123 Giants
Tony Lazzeri HOF 47.6 40.8 121 Giants
Joe Gordon HOF 55.6 50.2 120
Roberto Alomar HOF 67 55 116
Bobby Doerr HOF 51.4 44.1 115
Ryne Sandberg HOF 67.9 57.5 114
Craig Biggio HOF 65.5 53.6 112
Billy Herman HOF 57.4 47.6 112
Frankie Frisch HOF 71.8 58.3 110 Giants
Bid McPhee HOF 52.5 40.9 107
Johnny Evers HOF 47.7 40.5 106
Nellie Fox HOF 49.4 43.3 94
Red Schoendienst HOF 44.8 38.8 94 Giants
Bill Mazeroski HOF 36.5 31.3 84
triangle2 - triangle2 - 02-05-2025
Of course, the topic of second basemen excluded from the hall brings to mind the superb Lou Whitaker (75.1 WAR, 56.5 JAWS, 117 OPS+). Kent obviously had more home run power, but Whitaker had three Gold Gloves.
RE: triangle2 - Giants - 02-05-2025
(02-05-2025, 11:16 AM)triangle2 Wrote: Of course, the topic of second basemen excluded from the hall brings to mind the superb Lou Whitaker (75.1 WAR, 56.5 JAWS, 117 OPS+). Kent obviously had more home run power, but Whitaker had three Gold Gloves.
[quote="triangle2" pid='427499' dateline='1738779403']
Of course, the topic of second basemen excluded from the hall brings to mind the superb Lou Whitaker (75.1 WAR, 56.5 JAWS, 117 OPS+). Kent obviously had more home run power, but Whitaker had three Gold Gloves.
Plus, Whitaker has something Jeff Kent lacks - a World Series ring.
Whitaker - yes
Kent - no
Someday, the Veterans committee will have the final say on both of these guys.
RE: triangle2 - Mick - 02-05-2025
(02-05-2025, 12:43 PM)Giants Wrote:(02-05-2025, 11:16 AM)triangle2 Wrote: Of course, the topic of second basemen excluded from the hall brings to mind the superb Lou Whitaker (75.1 WAR, 56.5 JAWS, 117 OPS+). Kent obviously had more home run power, but Whitaker had three Gold Gloves.
[quote="triangle2" pid='427499' dateline='1738779403']
Of course, the topic of second basemen excluded from the hall brings to mind the superb Lou Whitaker (75.1 WAR, 56.5 JAWS, 117 OPS+). Kent obviously had more home run power, but Whitaker had three Gold Gloves.
Plus, Whitaker has something Jeff Kent lacks - a World Series ring.
Whitaker - yes
Kent - no
Someday, the Veterans committee will have the final say on both of these guys.
Whitaker does have a WS ring and Kent doesn't. Kent crushed it in post-season play (.276 .340 .500 .840), Lou did not come close to Kent's metrics in the post-season (.204 .350 .306 .656.)
Kent was MVP, Lou was not.
Both were 4x Silver Sluggers. Both were 5x All Stars. Neither ever led the league in any important hitting category.
You could actually make the case that Bobby Grich was more deserving than either. He led the league in HRs one year, had a higher OPS+ than either Kent or Whitaker, let the league in HBP one year, four consecutive gold gloves with most putouts and assists four years in a row. Higher WAR and JAWS than Kent or Whitaker.
Robinson Cano was better than any of the three, and he should get in when he's eligible.
RE: SF Giants 2025 - BobK - 02-05-2025
Baseball America ranks the Giant farm system at 24. Ugh
RE: triangle2 - Giants - 02-05-2025
(02-05-2025, 01:07 PM)Mick Wrote:(02-05-2025, 12:43 PM)Giants Wrote:(02-05-2025, 11:16 AM)triangle2 Wrote: Of course, the topic of second basemen excluded from the hall brings to mind the superb Lou Whitaker (75.1 WAR, 56.5 JAWS, 117 OPS+). Kent obviously had more home run power, but Whitaker had three Gold Gloves.
[quote="triangle2" pid='427499' dateline='1738779403']
Of course, the topic of second basemen excluded from the hall brings to mind the superb Lou Whitaker (75.1 WAR, 56.5 JAWS, 117 OPS+). Kent obviously had more home run power, but Whitaker had three Gold Gloves.
Plus, Whitaker has something Jeff Kent lacks - a World Series ring.
Whitaker - yes
Kent - no
Someday, the Veterans committee will have the final say on both of these guys.
Whitaker does have a WS ring and Kent doesn't. Kent crushed it in post-season play (.276 .340 .500 .840), Lou did not come close to Kent's metrics in the post-season (.204 .350 .306 .656.)
Kent was MVP, Lou was not.
Both were 4x Silver Sluggers. Both were 5x All Stars. Neither ever led the league in any important hitting category.
You could actually make the case that Bobby Grich was more deserving than either. He led the league in HRs one year, had a higher OPS+ than either Kent or Whitaker, let the league in HBP one year, four consecutive gold gloves with most putouts and assists four years in a row. Higher WAR and JAWS than Kent or Whitaker.
Robinson Cano was better than any of the three, and he should get in when he's eligible.
Unfortunately for Cano, he will be in the same group as Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa and Roger Clemens. Guys that should be in the Hall but are not for reasons that make no sense to me.
RE: SF Giants 2025 - BostonCard - 02-05-2025
I don't know, while one might disagree with excluding known PED users from the hall of fame, I don't know how it is a reason that makes no sense. Lots of people agree with you (for example, Bonds appeared on 66% of ballots in his last go around), but enough voters believe that PEDs are an absolute disqualification that he did not get in.
BC
RE: SF Giants 2025 - Giants - 02-05-2025
(02-05-2025, 05:57 PM)BostonCard Wrote: I don't know, while one might disagree with excluding known PED users from the hall of fame, I don't know how it is a reason that makes no sense. Lots of people agree with you (for example, Bonds appeared on 66% of ballots in his last go around), but enough voters believe that PEDs are an absolute disqualification that he did not get in.
BC
I do not understand how some voters can claim the moral high ground when there is no way anyone can absolutely say all players elected in the modern era disdained the use of PED’s. That is what makes no sense to me.