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RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 11-30-2023
(11-29-2023, 02:23 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(11-28-2023, 09:55 PM)PAsportsfan Wrote: This is for OutsiderFan. Reporter asks Klay Thompson about moving to the bench.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/5s7MoNz87xo
That might be one of the most projecting defensive responses to a question that wasn't asked that I've ever seen. Now here is Klay getting ready to talk with Steve about going to bench.
Not exactly the team-first mentality needed to win by Klay.
Draymond is putting his personal beefs above the team.
And Curry is not doing anything to reduce his turnovers and set the example to cherish the ball, something the W's must do given how small their error margin is.
![[Image: giphy.gif]](https://media.giphy.com/media/l3V0ma60jQqGCoJyM/giphy.gif)
I get that Klay wants in. But...he'll be 34 in two months. He didn't play for two and a half years. He was fine in last year's regular season but tanked in a big way in the playoffs. He has the worst numbers of his career -- by far -- in FG%, 3FG% and eFG% (tied with his second year). Rebounds down from last year. Assists down last two years in a row. Turnovers up, two years in a row. Personal fouls up, two years in a row.
Klay had all-defensive votes every year from 2013 through 2019...and none since then. His defensive ratings have declined six of the past seven years he was active and is now at a career-high 117...he's the #403rd ranked defensive player in the NBA. In terms of net rating, he's at #290, right behind Kevon Looney at #289 (both are -3.1).
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced?CF=MIN*GE*15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=-1&sort=DEF_RATING
Know who's the highest ranked net defensive/offensive rated player on the warriors? Here's the list:
#81 Podziemski
#155 Paul
#166 Payton
#192 Saric
#196 Moody
#243 Kuminga
#267 Curry
#289 Looney
#290 Thompson
#303 Green
#351 Wiggins
#432 Poole (just for fun)
RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 11-30-2023
GTFO of here with Giants talk in the NBA/Warriors thread please.
RE: NBA Discussion - lex24 - 12-01-2023
Mick dateline='[url=tel:1701371237' Wrote: 1701371237[/url]']
OutsiderFan dateline='[url=tel:1701293027' Wrote: 1701293027[/url]']
PAsportsfan dateline='[url=tel:1701233735' Wrote: 1701233735[/url]']
This is for OutsiderFan. Reporter asks Klay Thompson about moving to the bench.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/5s7MoNz87xo
Y
That might be one of the most projecting defensive responses to a question that wasn't asked that I've ever seen. Now here is Klay getting ready to talk with Steve about going to bench.
Not exactly the team-first mentality needed to win by Klay.
Draymond is putting his personal beefs above the team.
And Curry is not doing anything to reduce his turnovers and set the example to cherish the ball, something the W's must do given how small their error margin is.
I get that Klay wants in. But...he'll be 34 in two months. He didn't play for two and a half years. He was fine in last year's regular season but tanked in a big way in the playoffs. He has the worst numbers of his career -- by far -- in FG%, 3FG% and eFG% (tied with his second year). Rebounds down from last year. Assists down last two years in a row. Turnovers up, two years in a row. Personal fouls up, two years in a row.
Klay had all-defensive votes every year from 2013 through 2019...and none since then. His defensive ratings have declined six of the past seven years he was active and is now at a career-high 117...he's the #403rd ranked defensive player in the NBA. In terms of net rating, he's at #290, right behind Kevon Looney at #289 (both are -3.1).
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced?CF=MIN*GE*15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=-1&sort=DEF_RATING
Know who's the highest ranked net defensive/offensive rated player on the warriors? Here's the list:
#81 Podziemski
#155 Paul
#166 Payton
#192 Saric
#196 Moody
#243 Kuminga
#267 Curry
#289 Looney
#290 Thompson
#303 Green
#351 Wiggins
#432 Poole (just for fun)
But what are their Batting Averages……. :)
RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 12-01-2023
I'm suppose to believe there are 266 better players than Steph Curry? That just doesn't seem right to me.
Once again, the Warriors bench outplayed the starters in win vs. Clips. The only start with a + was Klay Thompson, but he also played a lot with the second unit.
Even without Chris Paul and GP2 the non-starters are better than the starters? WTF is going on here?
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 12-01-2023
(12-01-2023, 08:32 AM)lex24 Wrote:Mick dateline='[url=tel:1701371237' Wrote: 1701371237[/url]']
OutsiderFan dateline='[url=tel:1701293027' Wrote: 1701293027[/url]']
PAsportsfan dateline='[url=tel:1701233735' Wrote: 1701233735[/url]']
This is for OutsiderFan. Reporter asks Klay Thompson about moving to the bench.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/5s7MoNz87xo
Y
That might be one of the most projecting defensive responses to a question that wasn't asked that I've ever seen. Now here is Klay getting ready to talk with Steve about going to bench.
Not exactly the team-first mentality needed to win by Klay.
Draymond is putting his personal beefs above the team.
And Curry is not doing anything to reduce his turnovers and set the example to cherish the ball, something the W's must do given how small their error margin is.
I get that Klay wants in. But...he'll be 34 in two months. He didn't play for two and a half years. He was fine in last year's regular season but tanked in a big way in the playoffs. He has the worst numbers of his career -- by far -- in FG%, 3FG% and eFG% (tied with his second year). Rebounds down from last year. Assists down last two years in a row. Turnovers up, two years in a row. Personal fouls up, two years in a row.
Klay had all-defensive votes every year from 2013 through 2019...and none since then. His defensive ratings have declined six of the past seven years he was active and is now at a career-high 117...he's the #403rd ranked defensive player in the NBA. In terms of net rating, he's at #290, right behind Kevon Looney at #289 (both are -3.1).
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced?CF=MIN*GE*15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=-1&sort=DEF_RATING
Know who's the highest ranked net defensive/offensive rated player on the warriors? Here's the list:
#81 Podziemski
#155 Paul
#166 Payton
#192 Saric
#196 Moody
#243 Kuminga
#267 Curry
#289 Looney
#290 Thompson
#303 Green
#351 Wiggins
#432 Poole (just for fun)
But what are their Batting Averages……. :)
(11-30-2023, 01:29 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: GTFO of here with Giants talk in the NBA/Warriors thread please.
:D
This is a strange team...close losses and close wins over both good and bad teams. Former All-Stars who haven't played well but have shown juuuuust enough to keep them starting. Here's the +/- for the team in their close win over the Clippers (and maybe +/-, given its limitations, is the "batting average" for the NBA). Remember, they didn't have Chris Paul, Wiggins or GP3:
Starters
Green, -11
Moody, -9
Looney, -6
Curry, -4
Thompson, +8
Subs
Saric, +15
Kuminga, +13
Joseph, +12
Podziemski, +12
Starters failed, three of their key rotation players were out. Thompson did great with the subs, subs basically pulled it out.
Where does Kerr go from here?
RE: NBA Discussion - lex24 - 12-01-2023
Mick dateline='[url=tel:1701446193' Wrote: 1701446193[/url]']
lex24 dateline='[url=tel:1701444729' Wrote: 1701444729[/url]']
Mick dateline='[url=tel:1701371237' Wrote: 1701371237[/url]']
OutsiderFan dateline='[url=tel:1701293027' Wrote: 1701293027[/url]']
PAsportsfan dateline='[url=tel:1701233735' Wrote: 1701233735[/url]']
This is for OutsiderFan. Reporter asks Klay Thompson about moving to the bench.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/5s7MoNz87xo
Y
That might be one of the most projecting defensive responses to a question that wasn't asked that I've ever seen. Now here is Klay getting ready to talk with Steve about going to bench.
Not exactly the team-first mentality needed to win by Klay.
Draymond is putting his personal beefs above the team.
And Curry is not doing anything to reduce his turnovers and set the example to cherish the ball, something the W's must do given how small their error margin is.
I get that Klay wants in. But...he'll be 34 in two months. He didn't play for two and a half years. He was fine in last year's regular season but tanked in a big way in the playoffs. He has the worst numbers of his career -- by far -- in FG%, 3FG% and eFG% (tied with his second year). Rebounds down from last year. Assists down last two years in a row. Turnovers up, two years in a row. Personal fouls up, two years in a row.
Klay had all-defensive votes every year from 2013 through 2019...and none since then. His defensive ratings have declined six of the past seven years he was active and is now at a career-high 117...he's the #403rd ranked defensive player in the NBA. In terms of net rating, he's at #290, right behind Kevon Looney at #289 (both are -3.1).
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced?CF=MIN*GE*15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=-1&sort=DEF_RATING
Know who's the highest ranked net defensive/offensive rated player on the warriors? Here's the list:
#81 Podziemski
#155 Paul
#166 Payton
#192 Saric
#196 Moody
#243 Kuminga
#267 Curry
#289 Looney
#290 Thompson
#303 Green
#351 Wiggins
#432 Poole (just for fun)
But what are their Batting Averages……. :)
OutsiderFan dateline='[url=tel:1701376159' Wrote: 1701376159[/url]']
GTFO of here with Giants talk in the NBA/Warriors thread please.
:D
This is a strange team...close losses and close wins over both good and bad teams. Former All-Stars who haven't played well but have shown juuuuust enough to keep them starting. Here's the +/- for the team in their close win over the Clippers (and maybe +/-, given its limitations, is the "batting average" for the NBA). Remember, they didn't have Chris Paul, Wiggins or GP3:
Starters
Green, -11
Moody, -9
Looney, -6
Curry, -4
Thompson, +8
Subs
Saric, +15
Kuminga, +13
Joseph, +12
Podziemski, +12
Starters failed, three of their key rotation players were out. Thompson did great with the subs, subs basically pulled it out.
Where does Kerr go from here?
They simply aren’t very good. Time waits for no one. The core is old. Even older than their years given all the playoff games. Draymond has become a liability. Klay is a shell of his former self. Very little size. Not particularly athletic compared to the elite teams. If they don’t shoot well, forget it.
Kerr talks about how he “likes their depth”. Sounds like ‘23 Giants. The “depth” being a bunch of average, at best, players.
It’s Curry and not much else at this point. Especially with Wiggins being Wiggins.
To me, they are like the 2016 Giants. Maybe enough to slip into playoffs and lose early. Then it’s done. All good things end.
RE: NBA Discussion - TrumpCard - 12-01-2023
Plus/Minus is part about the player, part about the other players on the court with him, and part about the opponent. Also, the stat inherently makes backups look better than they really are because backups tend to play other backups. But if you keep those limitations in mind and compare like to like, then plus/minus has some use as a stat over the course of a season. But looking at just one game is folly. Too much randomness to make conclusions about whether Starter A is playing better than Backup Z.
TrumpCard - TrumpCard - 12-12-2023
Might be time for a significant suspension. There has to be a consequence for trying to injure people:
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/39102311/draymond-green-ejected-2nd-half-golden-state-warriors
Pasportsfan - PAsportsfan - 12-13-2023
I’m moving on from “outraged” to a “sad” phase. Guessing he’ll be suspended eight games.
TrumpCard - TrumpCard - 12-13-2023
He got 5 games less than a month ago, and then committed criminal battery on the court tonight. I’d go with 20 this time because I like a good redemption story, but he deserves more.
RE: Pasportsfan - MV72018 - 12-13-2023
(12-13-2023, 12:26 AM)PAsportsfan Wrote: I’m moving on from “outraged” to a “sad” phase. Guessing he’ll be suspended eight games.
As far as I'm concerned, Green, although still a major contributor, should be dropped from the team. He has hurt the Warriors multiple times this year, has not acknowledged that he'd done anything wrong, is proud of his thuggish behavior and won't change, Steve Kerr's imploring him to do so notwithstanding. What he did to Golbert, to Sabonis, and now to Nurkic is unforgivable. It's time for Draymond Green to go. He's too much of a distraction for the team and coaches. Start Kominga.
RE: Pasportsfan - Goose - 12-13-2023
(12-13-2023, 12:48 AM)MV72018 Wrote:I agree with you that the Warriors should let him go. His unwillingness to control himself is simply not acceptable. IMO the NBA should remove the option. They should suspend him for the remainder of the season and inform him that if he plays next year the first time he slugs somebody it is a lifetime ban. The Warriors probably won't keep him under those conditions and it will be problematic for him to sign elsewhere.(12-13-2023, 12:26 AM)PAsportsfan Wrote: I’m moving on from “outraged” to a “sad” phase. Guessing he’ll be suspended eight games.
As far as I'm concerned, Green, although still a major contributor, should be dropped from the team. He has hurt the Warriors multiple times this year, has not acknowledged that he'd done anything wrong, is proud of his thuggish behavior and won't change, Steve Kerr's imploring him to do so notwithstanding. What he did to Golbert, to Sabonis, and now to Nurkic is unforgivable. It's time for Draymond Green to go. He's too much of a distraction for the team and coaches. Start Kominga.
This is unfortunate for Draymond, but not unjust. You simply can't assault fellow players and get away with it. The punishments so far (over a period of YEARS) haven't been effective, so the "nuclear" option is IMO the only real option.
TrumpCard - TrumpCard - 12-13-2023
Too long of a suspension might bail out the Warriors from their record setting luxury tax bill. Interesting unintended consequence.
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 12-13-2023
I wish the Warriors hadn't re-upped Draymond Green, but that deed is done. I think he'll get a 10-game suspension. He's become more easily baited by other players and referees, and he loses his temper more easily. The Warriors have lost at least one championship because of his churlish ways, by his own admission.
The fact remains that he's under contract and the Warriors, in general, do better with him on the court than when he's off the court. So Kerr will play him when he comes back. Part of what affects DG, I suspect, is that as Wiggins and Thompson (and Looney, to a lesser extent) have absolutely tanked, Green's recognition that the team that won a championship 18 months ago is no longer that team...or at least not with those players. And that affects his mindset.
RE: NBA Discussion - gocard14 - 12-13-2023
(12-13-2023, 09:23 AM)Mick Wrote: I wish the Warriors hadn't re-upped Draymond Green, but that deed is done. I think he'll get a 10-game suspension. He's become more easily baited by other players and referees, and he loses his temper more easily. The Warriors have lost at least one championship because of his churlish ways, by his own admission.
The fact remains that he's under contract and the Warriors, in general, do better with him on the court than when he's off the court. So Kerr will play him when he comes back. Part of what affects DG, I suspect, is that as Wiggins and Thompson (and Looney, to a lesser extent) have absolutely tanked, Green's recognition that the team that won a championship 18 months ago is no longer that team...or at least not with those players. And that affects his mindset.
That may be part of it. With Dray on court frustration seems to be a trigger for outbursts like this, which is unacceptable. I think this thread overstates the incident. He swung and hit nurkic with his arm, who then solid the contact and flopped like a fish.
Worthy of ejection? Absolutely. Worthy of a suspension? For any other player either no or maybe one game, obviously Draymond is a repeat offender so probably longer, but talk of 10-20 games or season long is ridiculous. This was a minor infraction compared to a deliberate 20 second headlock.
As for my W's, it is becoming clear that unfortunately we can't just wait for Klay and Wiggins (and Looney) to get right. With Klay it just may not happen due to age/injury, and who knows whats going on with wiggins. We are just a better team with Paul, Moody or Podziemski on the court instead of those two.
I'm normally not the "trade everyone!" guy, but we owe it to Steph to make some moves while he remains in his extended prime. At some point we just have to rip off the band aid and break up the big 3, which probably means trading Kuminga as well to sweeten the pot. With Klay (and likely CP3) coming off the books next year, we could even afford to extend a player we trade for.
A few players I would target:
Donovan Mitchell. It's an open secret that he is not resigning with Cleveland and is not a good fit with Garland, who needs the ball in his hands. Much better fit with Steph who can play off ball. Cleveland probably won't deal him unless they know they're not a title contender, and it may end up being a rental so we can't give up all the assets, but if he would extend with us that would be a brobdingnagian get.
Siakam: He's an interesting player to fit around given his lack of spacing, but having a dominant post player and great wing defender would add a brobdingnagian wrinkle to the W's. Also an expiring deal, but would give us a half season to assess the fit prior to extending him.
Kuzma: He's a solid "do everything" guy, can score, ball handle, pass, defend, without being really elite at anything. His numbers are inflated by playing on a terrible team, so not sure he moves the needle enough, but he's just a good player.
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 12-13-2023
(12-13-2023, 10:25 AM)gocard14 Wrote:(12-13-2023, 09:23 AM)Mick Wrote: I wish the Warriors hadn't re-upped Draymond Green, but that deed is done. I think he'll get a 10-game suspension. He's become more easily baited by other players and referees, and he loses his temper more easily. The Warriors have lost at least one championship because of his churlish ways, by his own admission.
The fact remains that he's under contract and the Warriors, in general, do better with him on the court than when he's off the court. So Kerr will play him when he comes back. Part of what affects DG, I suspect, is that as Wiggins and Thompson (and Looney, to a lesser extent) have absolutely tanked, Green's recognition that the team that won a championship 18 months ago is no longer that team...or at least not with those players. And that affects his mindset.
That may be part of it. With Dray on court frustration seems to be a trigger for outbursts like this, which is unacceptable. I think this thread overstates the incident. He swung and hit nurkic with his arm, who then solid the contact and flopped like a fish.
Worthy of ejection? Absolutely. Worthy of a suspension? For any other player either no or maybe one game, obviously Draymond is a repeat offender so probably longer, but talk of 10-20 games or season long is ridiculous. This was a minor infraction compared to a deliberate 20 second headlock.
As for my W's, it is becoming clear that unfortunately we can't just wait for Klay and Wiggins (and Looney) to get right. With Klay it just may not happen due to age/injury, and who knows whats going on with wiggins. We are just a better team with Paul, Moody or Podziemski on the court instead of those two.
I'm normally not the "trade everyone!" guy, but we owe it to Steph to make some moves while he remains in his extended prime. At some point we just have to rip off the band aid and break up the big 3, which probably means trading Kuminga as well to sweeten the pot. With Klay (and likely CP3) coming off the books next year, we could even afford to extend a player we trade for.
A few players I would target:
Donovan Mitchell. It's an open secret that he is not resigning with Cleveland and is not a good fit with Garland, who needs the ball in his hands. Much better fit with Steph who can play off ball. Cleveland probably won't deal him unless they know they're not a title contender, and it may end up being a rental so we can't give up all the assets, but if he would extend with us that would be a of immense proportions get.
Siakam: He's an interesting player to fit around given his lack of spacing, but having a dominant post player and great wing defender would add a of immense proportions wrinkle to the W's. Also an expiring deal, but would give us a half season to assess the fit prior to extending him.
Kuzma: He's a solid "do everything" guy, can score, ball handle, pass, defend, without being really elite at anything. His numbers are inflated by playing on a terrible team, so not sure he moves the needle enough, but he's just a good player.
I've heard Siakam's name a lot...also heard Zach LaVine and Laurie Markkonen. Have heard package of Kyle Lowry, Duncan Robinson and the Miami 2024 first round pick. I just don't think Steph would countenance a Klay Thompson trade, under any circumstances.
BTW, prior to the season, the Warriors offered Klay a two year extension at $48 mms. annually. He turned it down
Warriors reportedly offered five-time All-Star two-year extension
Gilbert Arenas, incidentally, is not a fan of Klay, basically says he's just a spot shooter and never improved.
Gilbert Arenas rips four-time Warriors champion: 'Never improved'
RE: NBA Discussion - Leftcoast - 12-13-2023
Draymond's response is in the ESPN video here:
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/39102311/draymond-green-ejected-2nd-half-golden-state-warriors
RE: NBA Discussion - TrumpCard - 12-13-2023
I don't understand "proposed" Klay trades in which the Warriors get valuable assets. He's a mediocre player on a high-priced contract. The only "value" proposition is for a team trying to shed salary in future years by taking Klay's expiring contract. Donovan Mitchell, for example, is worth a lot to the Cavs as long as he's willing to stay, and he's worth multiple first rounders if he's leaving.
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 12-13-2023
(12-13-2023, 12:26 PM)TrumpCard Wrote: I don't understand "proposed" Klay trades in which the Warriors get valuable assets. He's a mediocre player on a high-priced contract. The only "value" proposition is for a team trying to shed salary in future years by taking Klay's expiring contract. Donovan Mitchell, for example, is worth a lot to the Cavs as long as he's willing to stay, and he's worth multiple first rounders if he's leaving.
An expiring contract is no small thing, especially if Klay is packaged with another player. Here's the net/net offensive rating vs. defensive ratings for each Warriors player along with their NBA rank:
Rank, name, off rating minus def rating
65. Podziemski (+9.7)
121. Saric (+5.4)
134. Paul (+4.8)
146. Payton (+4.0)
163. Kuminga (+3.4)
then a substantial dropoff to...
275. Thompson (-1.2)
287. Moody (-1.9)
299. Curry (-2.6)
319. Looney (-4.4)
349. Green (-6.7)
370. Wiggins (-8.3)
That's a pretty grim list. Interesting how low Curry is, that Moody's net/net isn't positive, that Green's net/net is very low and Wiggins' net/net is terrible. 458 players are included in the stats. And I realize the built-in limitation that the starters are largely playing against starters, and the subs are largely playing against subs. Still...not good.
All data from www.nba.com, here's the link:
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced?CF=MIN*GE*15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=A&sort=NET_RATING
RE: NBA Discussion - gocard14 - 12-13-2023
TrumpCard dateline='[url=tel:1702495598' Wrote: 1702495598[/url]']
I don't understand "proposed" Klay trades in which the Warriors get valuable assets. He's a mediocre player on a high-priced contract. The only "value" proposition is for a team trying to shed salary in future years by taking Klay's expiring contract. Donovan Mitchell, for example, is worth a lot to the Cavs as long as he's willing to stay, and he's worth multiple first rounders if he's leaving.
Agreed. Klay is sadly a salary dump. To get good players back (unless they are on a bad contract) we will need to bundle assets, likely Kuminga and draft picks.