WBB: Stanford 61 USC 74 - Printable Version
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RE: WBB: Stanford vs. USC 2pm Sunday Pac 12 Tourney Championship - BosCard - 03-10-2024
USC outrebounded us by 20. I don’t think our defense was bad, we just weren’t prepared to rebound from that defensive set. The guards needed to come back and help rebound because of all the help defense given to Watkins.
RE: WBB: Stanford vs. USC 2pm Sunday Pac 12 Tourney Championship - chrisk - 03-10-2024
(03-10-2024, 04:03 PM)BosCard Wrote: We had a bad game against one of the best teams in the country. Every team not named South Carolina has had some stinkers. Ohio St lost to a bad Maryland team. We have as good of a chance as any team not named South Carolina.
You should probably put USC West with USC East.
RE: WBB: Stanford vs. USC 2pm Sunday Pac 12 Tourney Championship - old spanish trail - 03-10-2024
We defended Juju well. I believe her ankle affected her elusiveness more than a little. We didn't plan a d for Forbes and she had a great day. Kiki wasn't as strong under the basket as she can be. Brink was good once she got going. Clardy earned way more playing time. Jump picked a bad time to be shy and then not to hit when she did shoot, our offense was disjointed too often, etc.
RE: WBB: Stanford vs. USC 2pm Sunday Pac 12 Tourney Championship - MV72018 - 03-10-2024
In
(03-10-2024, 03:46 PM)martyup Wrote:(03-10-2024, 03:44 PM)PVTree Wrote: Not our day.
Not rebounding, not hitting our 3s, not defending others than JuJu. Still think we get a #1 seed.
Yes
Maybe but far from clear whether we deserve it: South Carolina, Iowa, Texas, USC is Distinctly possible. USC had our number twice, with and without a big gsme from Watkins.
RE: WBB: Stanford vs. USC 2pm Sunday Pac 12 Tourney Championship - old spanish trail - 03-10-2024
(03-10-2024, 04:03 PM)BosCard Wrote: We had a bad game against one of the best teams in the country. Every team not named South Carolina has had some stinkers. Ohio St lost to a bad Maryland team. We have as good of a chance as any team not named South Carolina.
Yes. And, Carolina can have a bad day too.
RE: WBB: Stanford vs. USC 2pm Sunday Pac 12 Tourney Championship - MV72018 - 03-10-2024
(03-10-2024, 04:12 PM)BosCard Wrote: USC outrebounded us by 20. I don’t think our defense was bad, we just weren’t prepared to rebound from that defensive set. The guards needed to come back and help rebound because of all the help defense given to Watkins.
If what you say is true, and I tend to agree with you, then that massive disparity is on our coaches, especially since it continued into H2. Also no changes to defend Forbes better. Another shortcoming that’s on our coaches. I still think that Stanford is slow, unathletic, and without a good point guard, although Clardy has potential. She’s got to develop a shot, though.
RE: WBB: Stanford vs. USC 2pm Sunday Pac 12 Tourney Championship - old spanish trail - 03-10-2024
Btw, there's an aftergame on Pac 12
RE: WBB: Stanford vs. USC 2pm Sunday Pac 12 Tourney Championship - BosCard - 03-10-2024
(03-10-2024, 04:18 PM)MV72018 Wrote: In(03-10-2024, 03:46 PM)martyup Wrote:(03-10-2024, 03:44 PM)PVTree Wrote: Not our day.
Not rebounding, not hitting our 3s, not defending others than JuJu. Still think we get a #1 seed.
Yes
Maybe but far from clear whether we deserve it: South Carolina, Iowa, Texas, USC is Distinctly possible. USC had our number twice, with and without a big gsme from Watkins.
And what exactly has Texas done to earn a number one seed? I would say beating UCLA, Oregon State three times and Utah is better than anything Texas has done in the dumpster fire that is the Big 12.
RE: WBB: Stanford vs. USC 2pm Sunday Pac 12 Tourney Championship - jonnyss - 03-10-2024
(03-10-2024, 03:34 PM)TheWildJacko Wrote:MV72018 dateline='[url=tel:1710109778' Wrote: 1710109778[/url]']
BosCard dateline='[url=tel:1710109587' Wrote: 1710109587[/url]']
We need to rebound. We need to rebound. We need to rebound. That’s the only reason we are losing
I don't get the impression that Stanford bigs have learned the art of boxing out.
10 down 8:28 to go. Still time if that play smart.
That’s not the issue here. We’re not even sending players in for the rebound.
agreed. seems to some extent a strategy on offense to send everybody back on defense as soon as a shot goes up so juju doesn't run by us. also to some extent lazy play - i noticed one play in the 4th quarter where hannah stood at the 3-point line, left side, as her shot went up, made no attempt to follow it, forbes grabbed the rebound (with not a single stanford player in the key) and, if i recall correctly, ran back ahead of hannah and made a 3 herself. why we got no d-boards is a mystery to me. maybe everybody was told to watch juju after a shot goes up? but weird that on offense, when we didn't have to watch juju, usc's 3 ok posts far out-rebounded our 2 all-americans.
elena had a good game again, especially on defense. chloe had a good game. brooke and hannah were not good on d and only fair on o. hannah was 20' away from her player on several of usc's made 3s. half of those were triple-teaming juju, which imo was a coaching error - elena plus kiki was enough to slow juju; not worth it to triple team. the other half seemed to be simply losing track of her player. as others have pointed out numerous times, she likely plays too many minutes.
RE: WBB: Stanford vs. USC 2pm Sunday Pac 12 Tourney Championship - 81alum - 03-10-2024
Well, post mortems after big games are always hard. I'm not going to say too much until I see Tara's press conference.
1) It is a loss, and it is a disappointing loss, but at least it was interesting. We really got to see the mind of Tara at work reducing Watkins to 2-15. It was truly a sight to behold, after giving her 51. But of course, other things also needed to happen to get a win, and they did not.
2) We actually shot a few percentage points better than USC although it did not feel like it. But USC took 11 more shots than we did thanks to their 18 O-boards to our 6. That is where the game was lost, in my opinion. Our offense was not very good, but it was good enough to eek out a win if O-boards had been even. But giving them a 12 O-board advantage was deadly. That resulted in a 14-3 second chance points advantage to USC which was their entire lead and then some.
3) I know...I know...don't blame the officials, don't view the game from Stanford colored glasses, etc. But the style of officiating very much affects the style of play. Allowing so much physical contact gives the advantage to a team with stronger, more physical, more aggressive players and takes the advantage away from the game of movement. Brink is hurt by closely called games on defense, but she is helped by closely called games on offense. I don't like this style of officiating or the style of play that it encourages.
4) USC's defense was exactly the same as it was a year and a half ago when they beat us in LA. Pack the paint and smother Jump. It was not a brilliant strategy nor a new one, but it was effective. They denied entrance passes and dared us to shoot threes. We shot 7/19 which was not too bad, but we probably needed 12 of them to be competitive. Iriafen and Brink were fairly successful when they got the ball inside, but they didn't get it in position often enough. They both were turned somewhat into jump shooters, and they did fairly well with that, but not enough.
5) If I were looking for any positives to come out of this, it would be Bosgana's defense and Clardy's defense and steal. They both showed some poise and gave good contributions.
6) I said before the game that we would need to score in the upper 70s to win. Tah dah. We lost the game on offense, or as Tara said between the third and the fourth quarter, "we left our offense at the hotel." I wonder how much of this was Lepolo's limited minutes, or whether Lepolo got removed because the offense was not going well?
7) I wish we had involved Agara a little more on offense. I think she may have the right kind of body control to drive into traffic a bit in that packed paint.
Well, on to the NCAAs, hopefully a couple of games at Maples, and hopefully a better result than last year. I think we will have to get a bit lucky to face the kinds of teams we match up well against to advance deeply. USC is not the kind of team we want to play again.
Jskass - Jskass - 03-10-2024
Only question in my mind is whether we are a two in Portland (not USC’s) region or Albany. But first need to win two games.
RE: WBB: Stanford 61 USC 74 - TheWildJacko - 03-10-2024
We'll probably still get the 1 seed. But who knows.
RE: WBB: Stanford vs. USC 2pm Sunday Pac 12 Tourney Championship - BillBradley - 03-10-2024
Didn't play well enough to win, simple as that. Our defensive strategy was pretty cool IMO. It was a quasi-zone tactic, where Cam never left the middle, we forced Juju left, and whoever was guarding Davis or Marshall moved to double Juju. The risk with zones, as I mentioned, is rebounding and we got destroyed on the boards. Credit USC - they were tougher, stronger, more athletic, won most every 50/50 ball, etc. Plus Forbes and Padilla delivered. Congrats to USC, they deserve the trophy (hate saying that).
Other thoughts:
- Cam played well, Kiki a little sub par. Both fought and put up solid numbers. But as others have mentioned, the supporting cast didn't contribute much today. So stagnant and just not enough fight in the dog. Decent game by Bosgana, but Jump, Demetre, and Lepolo combined for 9 points and 1 rebound in 75 minutes of play. Those numbers are just simply not good enough to win games. It's one thing to not score, but you can always defend and rebound. And wow, did they look slowwwww. Brooke just handed them 4 points with 2 silly fouls. Not sure what's up with Hannah. Probably burnt and needs rest. One of the most painful plays of the game was the very first play of the 4th quarter. USC ran a simple baseline screen action for Padilla. We're down 53-44, still in the game, we tied the 3rd quarter, and starting to feel like we might get momentum. Hannah loses Padilla and then doesn't recover in time, bang, 3 pointer, down 12. Rough. I'm also concerned about Talana's knee. Hope it holds up in the tourney.
- Kudos to Clardy - she gave us great energy and toughness. Would have liked to have seen if Ogden or Harriel could have provided some offensive spark.
- Really hoping Cam continues to shoot open 3's. To make a deep tourney run, we need offensive alternatives.
- I'm still optimistic for the national tourney. Different posters have said we can't play offense and we can't play defense. There's a whole season of math that says we can play both, and very well. Massey has us as the #3 rated defense and the #5 rated offense in the country.
https://masseyratings.com/cbw/ncaa-d1/ratings. Likely we will still be a #1 seed and can make a deep run. Even if we're a #2, it doesn't much matter as long as we're not in So Carolina's region. Regardless, to make a deep run, we need everyone fighting.
RE: WBB: Stanford vs. USC 2pm Sunday Pac 12 Tourney Championship - jonnyss - 03-10-2024
(03-10-2024, 05:51 PM)BillBradley Wrote: Didn't play well enough to win, simple as that. Our defensive strategy was pretty cool IMO. It was a quasi-zone tactic, where Cam never left the middle, we forced Juju left, and whoever was guarding Davis or Marshall moved to double Juju. The risk with zones, as I mentioned, is rebounding and we got destroyed on the boards. Credit USC - they were tougher, stronger, more athletic, won most every 50/50 ball, etc. Plus Forbes and Padilla delivered. Congrats to USC, they deserve the trophy (hate saying that).
Other thoughts:
- Cam played well, Kiki a little sub par. Both fought and put up solid numbers. But as others have mentioned, the supporting cast didn't contribute much today. So stagnant and just not enough fight in the dog. Decent game by Bosgana, but Jump, Demetre, and Lepolo combined for 9 points and 1 rebound in 75 minutes of play. Those numbers are just simply not good enough to win games. It's one thing to not score, but you can always defend and rebound. And wow, did they look slowwwww. Brooke just handed them 4 points with 2 silly fouls. Not sure what's up with Hannah. Probably burnt and needs rest. One of the most painful plays of the game was the very first play of the 4th quarter. USC ran a simple baseline screen action for Padilla. We're down 53-44, still in the game, we tied the 3rd quarter, and starting to feel like we might get momentum. Hannah loses Padilla and then doesn't recover in time, bang, 3 pointer, down 12. Rough. I'm also concerned about Talana's knee. Hope it holds up in the tourney.
- Kudos to Clardy - she gave us great energy and toughness. Would have liked to have seen if Ogden or Harriel could have provided some offensive spark.
- Really hoping Cam continues to shoot open 3's. To make a deep tourney run, we need offensive alternatives.
- I'm still optimistic for the national tourney. Different posters have said we can't play offense and we can't play defense. There's a whole season of math that says we can play both, and very well. Massey has us as the #3 rated defense and the #5 rated offense in the country.
https://masseyratings.com/cbw/ncaa-d1/ratings. Likely we will still be a #1 seed and can make a deep run. Even if we're a #2, it doesn't much matter as long as we're not in So Carolina's region. Regardless, to make a deep run, we need everyone fighting.
ogden played - and immediately missed on both offense and defense.
RE: WBB: Stanford vs. USC 2pm Sunday Pac 12 Tourney Championship - BillBradley - 03-10-2024
(03-10-2024, 06:01 PM)jonnyss Wrote:She didn't come in until 2 mins left in the game. She's one of our more athletic and better scorers. Might have been helpful to sub for Hannah in Q2 or Q3.(03-10-2024, 05:51 PM)BillBradley Wrote: Didn't play well enough to win, simple as that. Our defensive strategy was pretty cool IMO. It was a quasi-zone tactic, where Cam never left the middle, we forced Juju left, and whoever was guarding Davis or Marshall moved to double Juju. The risk with zones, as I mentioned, is rebounding and we got destroyed on the boards. Credit USC - they were tougher, stronger, more athletic, won most every 50/50 ball, etc. Plus Forbes and Padilla delivered. Congrats to USC, they deserve the trophy (hate saying that).
Other thoughts:
- Cam played well, Kiki a little sub par. Both fought and put up solid numbers. But as others have mentioned, the supporting cast didn't contribute much today. So stagnant and just not enough fight in the dog. Decent game by Bosgana, but Jump, Demetre, and Lepolo combined for 9 points and 1 rebound in 75 minutes of play. Those numbers are just simply not good enough to win games. It's one thing to not score, but you can always defend and rebound. And wow, did they look slowwwww. Brooke just handed them 4 points with 2 silly fouls. Not sure what's up with Hannah. Probably burnt and needs rest. One of the most painful plays of the game was the very first play of the 4th quarter. USC ran a simple baseline screen action for Padilla. We're down 53-44, still in the game, we tied the 3rd quarter, and starting to feel like we might get momentum. Hannah loses Padilla and then doesn't recover in time, bang, 3 pointer, down 12. Rough. I'm also concerned about Talana's knee. Hope it holds up in the tourney.
- Kudos to Clardy - she gave us great energy and toughness. Would have liked to have seen if Ogden or Harriel could have provided some offensive spark.
- Really hoping Cam continues to shoot open 3's. To make a deep tourney run, we need offensive alternatives.
- I'm still optimistic for the national tourney. Different posters have said we can't play offense and we can't play defense. There's a whole season of math that says we can play both, and very well. Massey has us as the #3 rated defense and the #5 rated offense in the country.
https://masseyratings.com/cbw/ncaa-d1/ratings. Likely we will still be a #1 seed and can make a deep run. Even if we're a #2, it doesn't much matter as long as we're not in So Carolina's region. Regardless, to make a deep run, we need everyone fighting.
ogden played - and immediately missed on both offense and defense.
RE: WBB: Stanford 61 USC 74 - triangle2 - 03-10-2024
SC gets credit for their scout, and they benefited from refs who declined to make calls in the paint.
They took away Jump curling to her left off of the hand-off screen by switching instead of having her defender fight through. The player doing the hand-off needed to roll or establish post-position. It felt like we didn't expect the switch so the reaction was late. And, the post who switched out pressed Jump and didn't give her much of a passing lane into the post. That was a great strategic choice and something we'll have to address in the tournament, because that very obviously worked. The split action backdoor cut should have been open, but SC defended it well and guarded high enough to make those passes difficult.
SC decided that the plan was to force Brink to take shots off of her spots. We didn't move the ball around very well, so Brink lost patience and jacked up some bad shots. I haven't watched the presser, but I wouldn't be surprised if VanDerveer thinks the team lacked composure on the offensive end.
We tried to set low post screen for the guards to move through the paint. Here, SC just fouled the bleep out of anyone who was trying to come through. Pushing, grabbing, hip checking, holding. The refs get several demerits for going blind in the paint and then calling cheap-ass crap on screens and choosing selective rebounds to call fouls.
I personally liked the amoeba zone they were using to defend Watkins. Bosgana played really really solid against her. The scout was clearly to force her left and bring a post out to discourage shots. Live or die by those choices. SC made us pay for that, but I can't say I disagree with the plan.
This is the kind of game that we lose. Teams that defend high and put pressure on top disrupt the offensive flow. Also, the pretty motion game falls apart when the refs allow the defense to disrupt without calling the fouling. I imagine the coaches will need to remind Brink that she needs to be more patient, and we need move the ball around better to set up better post entry.
I loved most of Clardy's minutes. Although she's not as good as Lepolo as far as running the offense goes, her decision making is improving; and, she's a pest on defense, annoying, and persistent. She also hasn't yet showed that she's a reliable scorer. But, great minutes today.
RE: WBB: Stanford vs. USC 2pm Sunday Pac 12 Tourney Championship - TonyLima - 03-10-2024
(03-10-2024, 04:49 PM)jonnyss Wrote:(03-10-2024, 03:34 PM)TheWildJacko Wrote:MV72018 dateline='[url=tel:1710109778' Wrote: 1710109778[/url]']
BosCard dateline='[url=tel:1710109587' Wrote: 1710109587[/url]']
We need to rebound. We need to rebound. We need to rebound. That’s the only reason we are losing
I don't get the impression that Stanford bigs have learned the art of boxing out.
10 down 8:28 to go. Still time if that play smart.
That’s not the issue here. We’re not even sending players in for the rebound.
agreed. seems to some extent a strategy on offense to send everybody back on defense as soon as a shot goes up so juju doesn't run by us. also to some extent lazy play - i noticed one play in the 4th quarter where hannah stood at the 3-point line, left side, as her shot went up, made no attempt to follow it, forbes grabbed the rebound (with not a single stanford player in the key) and, if i recall correctly, ran back ahead of hannah and made a 3 herself. why we got no d-boards is a mystery to me. maybe everybody was told to watch juju after a shot goes up? but weird that on offense, when we didn't have to watch juju, usc's 3 ok posts far out-rebounded our 2 all-americans.
elena had a good game again, especially on defense. chloe had a good game. brooke and hannah were not good on d and only fair on o. hannah was 20' away from her player on several of usc's made 3s. half of those were triple-teaming juju, which imo was a coaching error - elena plus kiki was enough to slow juju; not worth it to triple team. the other half seemed to be simply losing track of her player. as others have pointed out numerous times, she likely plays too many minutes.
Terrific analysis! TYVM.
(03-10-2024, 06:47 PM)triangle2 Wrote: SC gets credit for their scout, and they benefited from refs who declined to make calls in the paint.
They took away Jump curling to her left off of the hand-off screen by switching instead of having her defender fight through. The player doing the hand-off needed to roll or establish post-position. It felt like we didn't expect the switch so the reaction was late. And, the post who switched out pressed Jump and didn't give her much of a passing lane into the post. That was a great strategic choice and something we'll have to address in the tournament, because that very obviously worked. The split action backdoor cut should have been open, but SC defended it well and guarded high enough to make those passes difficult.
SC decided that the plan was to force Brink to take shots off of her spots. We didn't move the ball around very well, so Brink lost patience and jacked up some bad shots. I haven't watched the presser, but I wouldn't be surprised if VanDerveer thinks the team lacked composure on the offensive end.
We tried to set low post screen for the guards to move through the paint. Here, SC just fouled the bleep out of anyone who was trying to come through. Pushing, grabbing, hip checking, holding. The refs get several demerits for going blind in the paint and then calling cheap-ass crap on screens and choosing selective rebounds to call fouls.
I personally liked the amoeba zone they were using to defend Watkins. Bosgana played really really solid against her. The scout was clearly to force her left and bring a post out to discourage shots. Live or die by those choices. SC made us pay for that, but I can't say I disagree with the plan.
This is the kind of game that we lose. Teams that defend high and put pressure on top disrupt the offensive flow. Also, the pretty motion game falls apart when the refs allow the defense to disrupt without calling the fouling. I imagine the coaches will need to remind Brink that she needs to be more patient, and we need move the ball around better to set up better post entry.
I loved most of Clardy's minutes. Although she's not as good as Lepolo as far as running the offense goes, her decision making is improving; and, she's a pest on defense, annoying, and persistent. She also hasn't yet showed that she's a reliable scorer. But, great minutes today.
Have you copyrighted "amoeba zone?" If not, get on it.
(03-10-2024, 05:51 PM)BillBradley Wrote: - Kudos to Clardy - she gave us great energy and toughness. Would have liked to have seen if Ogden or Harriel could have provided some offensive spark.
MOAЯ FROШ!!
RE: WBB: Stanford 61 USC 74 - 81alum - 03-10-2024
(03-10-2024, 06:47 PM)triangle2 Wrote: ...
We tried to set low post screen for the guards to move through the paint. Here, SC just fouled the bleep out of anyone who was trying to come through. Pushing, grabbing, hip checking, holding. The refs get several demerits for going blind in the paint and then calling cheap-ass crap on screens and choosing selective rebounds to call fouls....
Also, the pretty motion game falls apart when the refs allow the defense to disrupt without calling the fouling. .
Exactly right.
The Presser:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wylxF_1izpI&t=18s
One piece of information: Demetre got hit on the forehead and has a goose egg.
RE: WBB: Stanford 61 USC 74 - TheWildJacko - 03-10-2024
Apologies in advance for the rant, but I just have to say this: I am so sick of the announcers saying players are “clever” for being physical and getting away with hard fouls. That is BS. The refs should call the fouls when committed and it isn’t clever on the players’ part, it’s just sh**ty play that the refs are letting slide and the announcers are giving credit that isn’t due. The refs aren’t doing their jobs, the players are getting away with obvious fouls and it isn’t clever, it’s just dangerous and unwarranted and the announcers shouldn’t be praising them when the refs don’t call them on their $&!t.
Then again, we couldn’t beat USC last time when we fouled out 3 of their post players, so…
RE: WBB: Stanford 61 USC 74 - BillBradley - 03-10-2024
I hear ya Jacko, it's maddening watching it. Hannah got hacked twice in a row shooting 3's in the 4th. That's 6 points. No whistle. But this is the reality of the postseason and we HAVE to adapt. Right or wrong, this is how it is. We all know it's coming - it's not a surprise. It's a different argument, but I do think the refs are doing their job, as long as it's called the same way for both sides. And as 81 mentioned, if they call it close it works against us too because Cam ends up sitting - and we all know what that means. So we don't really want that either.
This aggressive style only becomes an advantage to the other team if our players don't fight back in the same way. We have to match the physicality. Cam does. She is in there battling and hacking and could have been called for 10 fouls herself.
Some specific examples...Hannah can't get open because they are grabbing and pushing her around when she cuts. Elena gets knocked off the ball when attacking. Cam and Kiki are mauled down low. Yet Forbes kept making shot after shot and never got knocked down once. We continued to "get a hand up" and "stay in position". Think she would have made 12 shots if we were doing the same thing to her? I highly doubt it. How about we get under their skin too?
Potential responses to this could be "that's not us", or "that's dirty", or "that's not how the game should be played" or "I hate watching that" or "someone could get hurt"... Everyone gets to look at it how they want and I respect all views. Personally, I wish we would match the physicality and quit whining about it. Show the other team we won't be intimidated. In my mind, if we don't, we can be the finesse team that watches the Final 4 on TV.
(03-10-2024, 06:47 PM)triangle2 Wrote: This is the kind of game that we lose. Teams that defend high and put pressure on top disrupt the offensive flow. Also, the pretty motion game falls apart when the refs allow the defense to disrupt without calling the fouling. I imagine the coaches will need to remind Brink that she needs to be more patient, and we need move the ball around better to set up better post entry.Spot on T2.