Sinking in the P12 North--and beyond

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Sinking in the P12 North--and beyond - gailtate - 10-07-2020

When's the last time Stanford was projected to finish BELOW Cal?
When's the last time the program was projected to finish FOURTH in a 6-team division -- and God knows where in the greater P12?
Where is the OUTRAGE that this program is sinking into vanilla irrelevance?
Where is the OUTRAGE that Shaw, who inherited a fortune, is failing to replenish it and watching it melt away like a glacier in ozone?
How does it feel to be the second-rated football program in the frickin' Bay Area?

This is what we're looking at today. C'mon, cheerleaders, I want to hear your howling apologies.

lex24 - lex24 - 10-07-2020

“Give me outrage for $500 Alex. And the answer is: “get a grip.” The question: “what is a rational response to this ridiculous post.”

There’s a whole lot going on around the world right now. I’m not gonna get “outraged” over anything having to do with how a sports team does. No matter how big a fan I am. I’ll save my “outrage” for more important things.

Hopefully I’ll be entertained this year and Stanford will be have a solid season. If they don’t, I think I’ll get over it. As for apologies? What are you talking about. Nobody that has supported this program or this coach has anything to apologize for. Given the fact that we have witnessed the best run the program has had during our lifetime and nothing comes freaking close.

If it goes down the toilet so be it. They have been there before. They’ll eventually get a new coach. So you’ll be thrilled and then we’ll see where they go from there. But outrage? Give me a break .

RE: lex24 - teejers1 - 10-07-2020

(10-07-2020, 08:41 PM)lex24 Wrote: “Give me outrage for $500 Alex. And the answer is: “get a grip.” The question: “what is a rational response to this ridiculous post.”

There’s a whole lot going on around the world right now. I’m not gonna get “outraged” over anything having to do with how a sports team does. No matter how big a fan I am. I’ll save my “outrage” for more important things.

Hopefully I’ll be entertained this year and Stanford will be have a solid season. If they don’t, I think I’ll get over it. As for apologies? What are you talking about. Nobody that has supported this program or this coach has anything to apologize for. Given the fact that we have witnessed the best run the program has had during our lifetime and nothing comes freaking close.

If it goes down the toilet so be it. They have been there before. They’ll eventually get a new coach. So you’ll be thrilled and then we’ll see where they go from there. But outrage? Give me a break .

Gail, get with the program. Coach Squander is the best. Don't ever forget that.

RE: Sinking in the P12 North--and beyond - donkey687 - 10-07-2020

(10-07-2020, 08:10 PM)gailtate Wrote: When's the last time Stanford was projected to finish BELOW Cal?
When's the last time the program was projected to finish FOURTH in a 6-team division -- and God knows where in the greater P12?
Where is the OUTRAGE that this program is sinking into vanilla irrelevance?
Where is the OUTRAGE that Shaw, who inherited a fortune, is failing to replenish it and watching it melt away like a glacier in ozone?
How does it feel to be the second-rated football program in the frickin' Bay Area?

This is what we're looking at today. C'mon, cheerleaders, I want to hear your howling apologies.

I am going to get worked up over not getting a first down, turning the ball over and losing a game that we shouldn't lose. I am not going to get worked up over a preseason media poll. I think Cal is overrated and Stanford is underrated, but what I think or what the media thinks is pretty irrelevant. It will get played out in the field (hopefully). I will save my outrage over the decline of the program if we do indeed lose more games than we win.

RE: Sinking in the P12 North--and beyond - donkey687 - 10-07-2020

(10-07-2020, 08:10 PM)gailtate Wrote: When's the last time Stanford was projected to finish BELOW Cal?
When's the last time the program was projected to finish FOURTH in a 6-team division -- and God knows where in the greater P12?
Where is the OUTRAGE that this program is sinking into vanilla irrelevance?
Where is the OUTRAGE that Shaw, who inherited a fortune, is failing to replenish it and watching it melt away like a glacier in ozone?
How does it feel to be the second-rated football program in the frickin' Bay Area?

This is what we're looking at today. C'mon, cheerleaders, I want to hear your howling apologies.

lex24 - lex24 - 10-07-2020

(10-07-2020, 08:57 PM)teejers1 Wrote:
(10-07-2020, 08:41 PM)lex24 Wrote: “Give me outrage for $500 Alex. And the answer is: “get a grip.” The question: “what is a rational response to this ridiculous  post.”

There’s a whole lot going on around the world right now. I’m not gonna get “outraged” over anything having to do with how a sports team does. No matter how big a fan I am. I’ll save my “outrage” for more important things.

Hopefully I’ll be entertained this year and Stanford will be have a solid season. If they don’t, I think I’ll get over it. As for apologies? What are you talking about. Nobody that has supported this program or this coach has anything to apologize for. Given the fact that we have witnessed the best run the program has had during our lifetime and nothing comes freaking close.

If it goes down the toilet so be it. They have been there before. They’ll eventually get a new coach.  So you’ll be thrilled and then we’ll see where they go from there. But outrage? Give me a break .

Gail, get with the program.  Coach Squander is the best. Don't ever forget that.

Hooked. See I can get you as well.......:)

My point Teejers, is I truly don’t care much right now. I’m just going to follow the Jeff Kent rule and enjoy the game. Whatever happens vis a vis Shaw and the program will play itself out. He had a good run. Maybe it’s over. Time will tell.

RE: Sinking in the P12 North--and beyond - JohnR34231 - 10-08-2020

I'll save my outrage until I see what actually happens this season.
I can't get all that excited about what a bunch of media types think is going to happen. Besides, given what happened last year, I don't think their projections are totally unrealistic. Hopefully we'll do better.
Why do I think that if we had been projected much higher, the "Shaw sucks" people on this board would be talking about how delusional they are?

RE: Sinking in the P12 North--and beyond - Phogge - 10-08-2020

I am outraged. Over the lack of sense displayed by fans in the South especially in Athens, Georgia. Over Stanford football? Ha.

RE: Sinking in the P12 North--and beyond - Mick - 10-08-2020

I've been a Stanford football fan for nearly five decades, since the Ralston Rose Bowls. I've attended Stanford games every season since the Ralston Rose Bowl years, and I'll continue to do so, whatever the outcome. I've enjoyed every season, though I have to admit that I didn't enjoy Teevens or Harris very much at all. For a variety of reasons, I enjoyed the different coaching styles of Walsh, Green, and yes, even Willingham. For a long time, I thought that the Willingham era was going to be the best we could do, and his teams beat Cal every year, went to four bowls in seven seasons, and a Rose Bowl. Given Stanford's recruiting limitations, I thought that was the best we could ever do. And as we suffered through Harris and Teevens, I merely hoped Stanford football would survive as a D1A/FBS division team.

Then the scales fell from my eyes, so to speak, when Harbaugh arrived. I don't think any of us thought he'd create a juggernaut. He'd had a succesful NFL career, did very well at San Diego, but had no substantive D1 head coaching experience. He brought EUTM, which was a great thing, but I don't think any of us knew what to expect. I thought that, if he could recruit at USD, he surely could recruit to Stanford, and he did. And to be candid, I think we all knew he was batsxxt crazy, but I think we all hoped it would be in a good way. And he was 12-1 in his final year with a 40-12 Orange Bowl over VaTech.

Then Shaw took over and extended the success in ways that we didn't expect. I don't think any of us expected eight consecutive bowls with three Rose Bowls in four years with a 5-3 bowl record, and the three losses were by 2, 3 and 4 points. We've all been ecstatic since.

At the same time, Shaw has (at least) three unfortunate tendencies. He turtles, his offenses are predictable, and he's not recruiting well. Let this little factoid sink in:

Buddy Teevens had better records (4-7) in two of his three seasons than Shaw did last year (4-8).

I think we're all worried about direction. I know I am. I predicted 2-5 because I don't expect any better. I really, really hope I'm wrong.

RE: lex24 - slide - 10-08-2020

(10-07-2020, 08:57 PM)teejers1 Wrote: Gail, get with the program. Coach Squander is the best. Don't ever forget that.

too funny.

ESPN forecast 4-2 for us before crossover. I think they are overly optimistic, but we'll see. 5 of 6 QBs we face will be newbies (if I am reading the reports correctly). if ever a year for Coach Sq to surprise on the upside, it is this year. if not, well, Lex has provided us some of the readied excuses.

lex24 - lex24 - 10-08-2020

(10-08-2020, 11:33 AM)slide Wrote:
(10-07-2020, 08:57 PM)teejers1 Wrote: Gail, get with the program. Coach Squander is the best. Don't ever forget that.

too funny.

ESPN forecast 4-2 for us before crossover. I think they are overly optimistic, but we'll see. 5 of 6 QBs we face will be newbies (if I am reading the reports correctly). if ever a year for Coach Sq to surprise on the upside, it is this year. if not, well, Lex has provided us some of the readied excuses.

I’m hurt..... :). I don’t see excuses in my response. Just not “outrage” over the predicted fall. Certainly the talent level has dropped, as have my expectations. Excuses moving forward is not the same as appreciation for the past.

RE: Sinking in the P12 North--and beyond - Believer - 10-08-2020

After watching last season I'll make my assumptions based on my own experiences and observations and not get upset at what a few local sports writers think. Their attempt to analyze the game and predict the outcome of a 2020 season is strictly viewed by me as pure entertainment. While 4th place is not far fetched being that Cal, Oregon and UW will be (for good reasons) formifable opponents. I will look to my own criteria on why I believe that a 4th place finish is as likely as a 1st place finish:

-In 2019, 18 true freshman saw legit play time

-An injury descimated offensive line with a true Freshman OT, true freshman OG's provided ptotection that only allowed 29 sacks and paved the way for over 1200 yards rushing. The group was anchored by a DUDE who I think could be an All American Center in 2020. With a TE and a T&F athlete walk-on as the only depth at one point. This group is built on adversity. 2020 brings health and depth and an opportunity to shine this year. (In 2019 Stanford QBs were sacked 29 times in 444 attempts. Compare that with Cal-47/366, Oregon-41/446 and UW-29/411. All along leaning on arguably the greenist OL in P5 football- too me thats a miracle)

-Stanford secondary also saw an injury bug and rolled out a true freshman safety starter who played with the spark of a veteran and a freshman corner who ran stride for stride with most every WR faced

-Two freshman RB's played maningful snaps and showed that they could have started on many if not most P5 squads. (Austin Jones averaging 5.0 yards per carry and Nathaniel Peat going for 6.3 yards per carry) all while playing behind a line playing way over their head

-Break out WR play: likely one of the most talented WR rooms in recent memory if not ever. No injuries, no opting out, and adding to the room with talented 2020 players

-QB position that in 2019 had a question mark from week to week/play to play but still manage to toss for more yards in one game than any other QB in the history of Stanford Football all the while playing and competing in games that that they had no business being in with such an injury stricken program. And that QB (the former #1 High School QB in America) is back. And hes backed up by another very talented QB

Meanwhile in Oregon they lose a QB that is/was likely the most underrated QB in the NFL draft and possibly the best QB in the Class of 19' (only time will tell) They also lost 4 of their best eligible players who were active last year that have opted out to prepare for the draft. Thats a hit! Fact is, Oregon had a DUDE in Herbert and knowing what I know now, its likely that Oregon underachieved with him. How will they perform now that they don't have one of the best QB's in America?

In Cal you have a team that could barely beat us when they were at their best and when we were at our worst. While I give Wilcox credit, and see the same momentum as everyone else, they are still grossly under staffed when comparing rosters with Stanford. Its not close. (side note: Cal just lost prized 2020 4* TE who up and quit before his first camp began. Its the 2nd TE in two seasons with a promising future that quit the program. Not a good look for Wilcox who trying his hardest to build up a dominant TE room)

UW no longer has one of the best coaches they have ever had. Changes in the coaching carousel outside of the head coaches office arent going to help them either. Anyway you look at it, first year college head coaches are challenged. UW will still be a fight, but without the crowd, I will put my Stanford

RE: Sinking in the P12 North--and beyond - murky - 10-08-2020

Am I the only one who isn't counting this season?

I think the circumstances are too arbitrary and shaken up to put much stock in the football outcomes of the 6 or so games that may or may not get played this season.

Barring transgressions along immoral or unethical lines, I'll consider this a mulligan.

If we somehow have a great season, I suppose that will have to be taken with a grain of salt too.

RE: Sinking in the P12 North--and beyond - Brickcity - 10-08-2020

(10-08-2020, 04:21 PM)murky Wrote: Am I the only one who isn't counting this season?

I think the circumstances are too arbitrary and shaken up to put much stock in the football outcomes of the 6 or so games that may or may not get played this season.

Barring transgressions along immoral or unethical lines, I'll consider this a mulligan.

If we somehow have a great season, I suppose that will have to be taken with a grain of salt too.

I'm simply having a hard time caring about the program anymore. A big part of it is the nature of this season (Covid.) The other issue - which I think is now endemic to the program - is Shaw's apparent lack of competitive fire. I'm referring mainly to his lack of recruiting effort - which tells me that HE doesn't really care about winning. So, why should I? I'm all in on the basketball program and, to a lesser extent baseball. Haase is a guy who oozes with competitiveness. And for anyone who wants to say, "what has he done at Stanford?," I shall pre-empt you by saying that he did not inherit the number 4 ranked team in the nation when he arrived. Far from it!

RE: Sinking in the P12 North--and beyond - BostonCard - 10-08-2020

(10-08-2020, 05:44 PM)Brickcity Wrote: The other issue - which I think is now endemic to the program - is Shaw's apparent lack of competitive fire.

I think anyone who knows Shaw would dispute this characterization.

BC

RE: Sinking in the P12 North--and beyond - Phogge - 10-08-2020

In this case if he has fire in his stool like Harballs he should show it to the fan base once in a while. You don't have to be a hard case to show emotion.

RE: Sinking in the P12 North--and beyond - BostonCard - 10-08-2020

(10-08-2020, 06:22 PM)Phogge Wrote: In this case if he has fire in his stool like Harballs he should show it to the fan base once in a while. You don't have to be a hard case to show emotion.

That's a different complaint than allegations that he lacks competitive fire. He is clearly not as demonstrative as other coaches, and that clearly rubs some fans the wrong way, but you shouldn't assume that proves Shaw lacks fire.

BC

lex24 - lex24 - 10-08-2020

Ok, I stopped being a ball dude in ‘16. Started in 09. For 6 years for home games I spent most the game standing next to Shaw. He had plenty of fire. That was one of the criticisms that always bugged me. You don’t need to scream and yell on the sidelines jump up and down and go through a bunch of histrionics to be effective with referees to show fire etc. Hell, Bill Walsh wasn’t a bad coach and about the only expression he got on his face is that when things went really poorly he looked like he was exceedingly constipated. Tom Landry not a bad coach he didn’t scream yell etc. Shaw came after Harbaugh who obviously was much more animated. But the suggestion that Shaw “lacked” fire was, imo, nonsense.

Shaw worked refs very effectively. One specific example. Shaw called a jump ball at the goal line (shocking I know). There was passing interference didn’t get called. Shaw called the ref over said he missed it and he said we will go back to that play another point in this game so watch for it. They did, (again shocking) there was pass interference, this time the same ref threw the the flag. Didn’t matter because it was caught for a TD.

RE: Sinking in the P12 North--and beyond - old spanish trail - 10-08-2020

I believe in Believer because.....why not?

Oregon still has some good dudes, but Cal is over rated, WSU coachless and player deprived, Wash new coach might be good enuf, OSU improving but not there yet. So..5-2.

RE: Sinking in the P12 North--and beyond - Brickcity - 10-08-2020

(10-08-2020, 06:53 PM)BostonCard Wrote:
(10-08-2020, 06:22 PM)Phogge Wrote: In this case if he has fire in his stool like Harballs he should show it to the fan base once in a while. You don't have to be a hard case to show emotion.

That's a different complaint than allegations that he lacks competitive fire. He is clearly not as demonstrative as other coaches, and that clearly rubs some fans the wrong way, but you shouldn't assume that proves Shaw lacks fire.

BC

Dude, I'm not talking about Shaw's sideline demeanor. Among other areas, I'm referring to the fact that the man is passive when it comes to recruiting. The defensive line recruit (don't remember his name) who recently committed to Cal because their coaching staff recruited him harder is a case in point. The kid said something to the effect that Shaw's approach, while unusual, "works for him." Well, apparently it doesn't. I can't imagine that this kid is the only recruit Stanford has lost due to Shaw's passivity.

Want another example? Miller Moss. I don't know the reason why Shaw didn't offer him. But, a competitive coach would have taken that kid in a heartbeat: he wanted to come to Stanford, he was the most highly regarded QB in his class, is by all accounts a great kid, and was highly admit-able. My assumption is that Shaw didn't take him because he was worried that either Moss or Tanner McKee - whoever ended up losing the starting job in a few years - would transfer out. An ultra competitive coach doesn't worry about that possibility. Hell, whatever Shaw's reason was, it was inexcusable.

BTW, a poster noted the other day that it was Miller Moss who helped sway one of our cornerback recruits to flip his verbal to USC...so he could switch to wide receiver. Apparently, Moss is a big time recruiter more generally now for U$C. I actually remember reading a story from RJ (TOS) BEFORE Shaw passed on Moss in which RJ pointed out that Moss was the kind of kid, wherever he ended up going, who would attract others to the class. Shaw had to have known this too. But, he still passed on him.

Shaw's lack of competitiveness also manifests itself outside recruiting. Early in Shaw's tenure as a head coach, he mentioned how he makes a point of not pushing his assistants to work late into the evening. I gave him props for that at the time because it showed his humanity. But, let's get real: this ain't high school football. And, virtually all of the coaching staffs he's going up against every week ARE working into the evening precisely in order to beat Stanford on Saturday. A highly competitive coach doesn't encourage his coaches to leave at 5:00 or 6:00 during the season.

Speaking of assistant coaches, have you ever heard of a head coach who, over nearly a decade of service, has NEVER fired an assistant? The fact he hasn't (or at least not any I can think of) tells me he forsakes having a great coaching staff because...Hell, I don't know why...I guess he's afraid of having the uncomfortable task of actually firing someone. Again, a competitive coach doesn't worry about that crap. He always has his eye on the prize and is trying to figure out how to improve his program.

For the record, I had the chance to meet Shaw about five years ago. He was incredibly nice. I remember telling my wife how much I instantly liked the guy. So, it's nothing personal. He just doesn't have the fire in his belly.