Never thought it would become this ugly - Printable Version
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Never thought it would become this ugly - gailtate - 10-05-2024
We are staring into the abyss. The heart of darkness. The horror! The horror.!
RE: Never thought it would become this ugly - 82lsju - 10-05-2024
(10-05-2024, 06:26 PM)gailtate Wrote: We are staring into the abyss. The heart of darkness. The horror! The horror.!
I'm not sure we're quite to 2006 level of despair...
RE: Never thought it would become this ugly - d4cohn - 10-05-2024
Yes, who could have imagined that the team might struggle having to start their third string QB whose limitations throwing the football
are pretty apparent.
All we need is someone to argue that this is somehow David Shaw's fault.
RE: Never thought it would become this ugly - CowboyIndian - 10-05-2024
(10-05-2024, 06:37 PM)d4cohn Wrote: All we need is someone to argue that this is somehow David Shaw's fault.
Glad to oblige. Miller Moss is having a really nice year at $C. That's just for starters.
RE: Never thought it would become this ugly - d4cohn - 10-05-2024
(10-05-2024, 06:41 PM)CowboyIndian Wrote:(10-05-2024, 06:37 PM)d4cohn Wrote: All we need is someone to argue that this is somehow David Shaw's fault.
Glad to oblige. Miller Moss is having a really nice year at $C. That's just for starters.
Troy Taylor brought Lamson in as a transfer QB (not Shaw). So TT had the ability to, and did, upgrade the QB position through the portal to make up for any "empty cupboard" Shaw left.
If TT utilized his QB transfer on a quarterback who threw for barely 100 yards, averaged 4.3 yards per completion, and had 1 fewer TD pass than his RB, perhaps TT didn't do a good job evaluating the QB's in the transfer portal. A QB from New Mexico State who transferred to Vandy this year (so he had a strong enough academic profile to grad transfer to Vandy) just led his team to an upset of #1 ranked Alabama.
I have never heard Miller even considered Stanford, particularly in this NIL era when players like Austin Jones and Kiki Irafen went from Stanford to SC (not the other way around).
RE: Never thought it would become this ugly - MV72018 - 10-05-2024
(10-05-2024, 06:59 PM)d4cohn Wrote:(10-05-2024, 06:41 PM)CowboyIndian Wrote:(10-05-2024, 06:37 PM)d4cohn Wrote: All we need is someone to argue that this is somehow David Shaw's fault.
Glad to oblige. Miller Moss is having a really nice year at $C. That's just for starters.
Troy Taylor brought Lamson in as a transfer QB (not Shaw). So TT had the ability to, and did, upgrade the QB position through the portal to make up for any "empty cupboard" Shaw left.
If TT utilized his QB transfer on a quarterback who threw for barely 100 yards, averaged 4.3 yards per completion, and had 1 fewer TD pass than his RB, perhaps TT didn't do a good job evaluating the QB's in the transfer portal. A QB from New Mexico State who transferred to Vandy this year (so he had a strong enough academic profile to grad transfer to Vandy) just led his team to an upset of #1 ranked Alabama.
I have never heard Miller even considered Stanford, particularly in this NIL era when players like Austin Jones and Kiki Irafen went from Stanford to SC (not the other way around).
That is a devastating analysis. As I asked earlier, why would TAt have brought Lamson in as a transfer, just to run an occasional QB sneak.
RE: Never thought it would become this ugly - d4cohn - 10-05-2024
While I was looking for any articles linking Miller Moss to Stanford, I came across this:
https://www.tmz.com/2024/09/03/miller-moss-usc-investigation-2022/
Miller apparently stole and talked about stealing other belongings from his roommate.
RE: Never thought it would become this ugly - oldalum - 10-05-2024
Vandy's grad-transfer (from New Mexico State) QB Pavia was never available to Stanford. Pavia went to Vandy with his longtime mentor, coach Kill. According to the Athletic article: "[Vandy head coach Clark] Lea was a believer after trying to figure out how the heck New Mexico State destroyed Auburn 31-10 on the road last season. He studied the game footage like a film student pores over “Citizen Kane.” He saw Pavia, playing for head coach Kill and offensive coordinator Tim Beck, shredding the Tigers with his arm and legs." Kill retired after that season and Pavia was headed for Nevada with a "substantial" NIL package. But then Lea hired Beck as offensive coordinator, and Kill as chief consultant/senior offensive advisor. Pavia followed his mentor Kill to Vandy.
Also, the SEC in 2020 began allowing grad transfers to pursue a second undergraduate major at their new school instead of enrolling in a graduate program. The move obviously greased the way for top graduating non-SEC players to transfer to the SEC. I don't know if that's what Pavia is doing, but according to a USA Today article he is a 5th year senior at Vandy. I doubt that's available at Stanford.
RE: Never thought it would become this ugly - marchballer - 10-05-2024
I feel like it’s not all that bad. We had a bad game today but we’re clearly better in many areas than last year. We clearly need an upgrade at QB to help us at the next level.
I do worry that Taylor isn’t gonna be able to get us past the 5/6 win mark. For an elite offensive coach, we’ve only scored 21 points in the last two games. We’re clearly unable to mask our weaknesses at the QB position.
RE: Never thought it would become this ugly - Goose - 10-05-2024
(10-05-2024, 07:17 PM)MV72018 Wrote: That is a devastating analysis. As I asked earlier, why would TAt have brought Lamson in as a transfer, just to run an occasional QB sneak.At that point in history it was not obvious that Lamson couldn't be an effective passer. Remember that last year Lamson and Daniels both got a shot at the starting position. It wasn't a one game only thing. Both QBs at times throw very good on target passes into tight windows. Unfortunately both QBs throw more passes that are barely in the right zip code (or directly into the wrong zip code). Daniels was and is a better passer, but he also has received the benefit of lots more reps after he won the starting job. TT needed a QB. Patu was never the answer. TT took what he could get. It wasn't perfect.
RE: Never thought it would become this ugly - d4cohn - 10-05-2024
(10-05-2024, 08:31 PM)Goose Wrote:(10-05-2024, 07:17 PM)MV72018 Wrote: That is a devastating analysis. As I asked earlier, why would TAt have brought Lamson in as a transfer, just to run an occasional QB sneak.At that point in history it was not obvious that Lamson couldn't be an effective passer. Remember that last year Lamson and Daniels both got a shot at the starting position. It wasn't a one game only thing. Both QBs at times throw very good on target passes into tight windows. Unfortunately both QBs throw more passes that are barely in the right zip code (or directly into the wrong zip code). Daniels was and is a better passer, but he also has received the benefit of lots more reps after he won the starting job. TT needed a QB. Patu was never the answer. TT took what he could get. It wasn't perfect.
My analysis of Lamson was in response to the argument that, almost two years after he left the job, somehow David Shaw is at fault for the state of affairs. If people are going to criticize a 3-time Pac-12 winning coach and the winningest coach in program history two years after he left for the current state of the program, then I think it is completely fair to criticize TT for either his evaluation and/or development of Lamson. GMs don't pick players, nor coaches recruit players, that they think will not be able to perform. The GMs and coaches are evaluated on the results regardless. At a program like Stanford, you get at most one bite of the transfer portal apple. Neither may not be fair, but both are the reality of college football and coaching at Stanford respectively.
RE: Never thought it would become this ugly - chrisk - 10-05-2024
(10-05-2024, 09:43 PM)d4cohn Wrote:(10-05-2024, 08:31 PM)Goose Wrote:(10-05-2024, 07:17 PM)MV72018 Wrote: That is a devastating analysis. As I asked earlier, why would TAt have brought Lamson in as a transfer, just to run an occasional QB sneak.At that point in history it was not obvious that Lamson couldn't be an effective passer. Remember that last year Lamson and Daniels both got a shot at the starting position. It wasn't a one game only thing. Both QBs at times throw very good on target passes into tight windows. Unfortunately both QBs throw more passes that are barely in the right zip code (or directly into the wrong zip code). Daniels was and is a better passer, but he also has received the benefit of lots more reps after he won the starting job. TT needed a QB. Patu was never the answer. TT took what he could get. It wasn't perfect.
My analysis of Lamson was in response to the argument that, almost two years after he left the job, somehow David Shaw is at fault for the state of affairs. If people are going to criticize a 3-time Pac-12 winning coach and the winningest coach in program history two years after he left for the current state of the program, then I think it is completely fair to criticize TT for either his evaluation and/or development of Lamson. GMs don't pick players, nor coaches recruit players, that they think will not be able to perform. The GMs and coaches are evaluated on the results regardless. At a program like Stanford, you get at most one bite of the transfer portal apple. Neither may not be fair, but both are the reality of college football and coaching at Stanford respectively.
The QB room became rather empty pretty quickly. Northwestern has been relying on transfer QBs in recent years. Some work out well, most do not. Stanford is probably better off recruiting HS QBs.
RE: Never thought it would become this ugly - Goose - 10-06-2024
(10-05-2024, 10:24 PM)chrisk Wrote:IMO Stanford is better off doing both. Relying on transfers is going to be difficult for programs that are not "football destinations", which right now Stanford clearly is not. "Can't miss" prospects will go elsewhere. The transfer also has to get admitted. Stanford needed a "quick fix" when TT arrived. He didn't have a wide selection of possibilities available to him. He did the best he could with what was available. I can't fault him for his "talent evaluation" at this point because I have no idea what it actually was. What did he forgo by taking Lamson? Who would have gotten those reps and started yesterday instead and why would that have been better? I have no idea.(10-05-2024, 09:43 PM)d4cohn Wrote:(10-05-2024, 08:31 PM)Goose Wrote:(10-05-2024, 07:17 PM)MV72018 Wrote: That is a devastating analysis. As I asked earlier, why would TAt have brought Lamson in as a transfer, just to run an occasional QB sneak.At that point in history it was not obvious that Lamson couldn't be an effective passer. Remember that last year Lamson and Daniels both got a shot at the starting position. It wasn't a one game only thing. Both QBs at times throw very good on target passes into tight windows. Unfortunately both QBs throw more passes that are barely in the right zip code (or directly into the wrong zip code). Daniels was and is a better passer, but he also has received the benefit of lots more reps after he won the starting job. TT needed a QB. Patu was never the answer. TT took what he could get. It wasn't perfect.
My analysis of Lamson was in response to the argument that, almost two years after he left the job, somehow David Shaw is at fault for the state of affairs. If people are going to criticize a 3-time Pac-12 winning coach and the winningest coach in program history two years after he left for the current state of the program, then I think it is completely fair to criticize TT for either his evaluation and/or development of Lamson. GMs don't pick players, nor coaches recruit players, that they think will not be able to perform. The GMs and coaches are evaluated on the results regardless. At a program like Stanford, you get at most one bite of the transfer portal apple. Neither may not be fair, but both are the reality of college football and coaching at Stanford respectively.
The QB room became rather empty pretty quickly. Northwestern has been relying on transfer QBs in recent years. Some work out well, most do not. Stanford is probably better off recruiting HS QBs.
Recruiting HS players is also a difficult task but at least in that case you have a much wider set of targets. Choosing which set of targets to pursue is indeed an important task for the head coach and the program. One can indeed evaluate and potentially criticize TTs performance in that area. Brown may turn out to be a great choice or anything but. We don't yet know. Right now, Stanford is attempting to work its way up the food chain from a very bad initial position. So far, TT hasn't clearly excelled in recruiting HS players but he also hasn't totally failed at it either. We will know more about that next year.
We clearly have holes that need filling. We clearly need to "play better". One attribute of sports is that you are who your record says you are. Lots of criticism coaches receive is unfair and simply incorrect. IMO Shaw was the target of lots of that. However, Shaw did quit "winning" and clearly did have problems getting the players he needed to have even a winning record, let alone a "great" record year over year. So far TT has the same if not worse problem. We are all looking for "improvement" and sometimes see it when it arguably isn't really there. Criticizing the coach is always allowed, even when said coach is winning. If the coach isn't "winning" or at least on an upward trajectory it may indeed be possible to find "real" reasons why that is the case. IMO TT hasn't been here long enough for us casual fans to do that yet. Maybe some of the Cardboarders that are close to the program and have much more information can. We all can criticize results. Coaches are replaced for "not winning enough". Lets hope we don't have that problem going forward.
RE: Never thought it would become this ugly - martyup - 10-06-2024
Perhaps there should be a transfer portal for coaches.
![[Image: ?u=https%3A%2F%2Fc.tenor.com%2FphAqVBNpQ...ipo=images]](https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fc.tenor.com%2FphAqVBNpQ1QAAAAM%2Fwill-ferrell-confused.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=a594edd13b94c0381f1a975fa29c7b1b7882b6edf9c001cb4191f1165714aa87&ipo=images)
RE: Never thought it would become this ugly - MV72018 - 10-06-2024
(10-05-2024, 08:31 PM)Goose Wrote:(10-05-2024, 07:17 PM)MV72018 Wrote: That is a devastating analysis. As I asked earlier, why would TAt have brought Lamson in as a transfer, just to run an occasional QB sneak.At that point in history it was not obvious that Lamson couldn't be an effective passer. Remember that last year Lamson and Daniels both got a shot at the starting position. It wasn't a one game only thing. Both QBs at times throw very good on target passes into tight windows. Unfortunately both QBs throw more passes that are barely in the right zip code (or directly into the wrong zip code). Daniels was and is a better passer, but he also has received the benefit of lots more reps after he won the starting job. TT needed a QB. Patu was never the answer. TT took what he could get. It wasn't perfect.
Goose, you just retired the euphemism of the year trophy with those last 3 words.
RE: Never thought it would become this ugly - gailtate - 10-06-2024
(10-05-2024, 06:30 PM)82lsju Wrote:(10-05-2024, 06:26 PM)gailtate Wrote: We are staring into the abyss. The heart of darkness. The horror! The horror.!
I'm not sure we're quite to 2006 level of despair...
There was talent on Wlat's '06 team. Harbaugh used it in '07 as the foundational element of his Stanford career. Look where he had the program by '09. TT won't come close to that by his third season.
RE: Never thought it would become this ugly - Goose - 10-06-2024
(10-06-2024, 01:42 PM)gailtate Wrote: There was talent on Wlat's '06 team. Harbaugh used it in '07 as the foundational element of his Stanford career. Look where he had the program by '09. TT won't come close that by his third season.True. To make sure I understand your point, you are saying the '06 team had talent that Harbaugh et al used to be a better team in '07 and beyond. The '22 team had little if any talent and therefore TT is going to have a much tougher time. I would support that assertion. There was no Toby Gerhart on the '22 team, for example. TT may never 'get there', but he clearly started with further to go.
RE: Never thought it would become this ugly - SamuelMcF - 10-06-2024
(10-06-2024, 02:02 PM)Goose Wrote:(10-06-2024, 01:42 PM)gailtate Wrote: There was talent on Wlat's '06 team. Harbaugh used it in '07 as the foundational element of his Stanford career. Look where he had the program by '09. TT won't come close that by his third season.True. To make sure I understand your point, you are saying the '06 team had talent that Harbaugh et al used to be a better team in '07 and beyond. The '22 team had little if any talent and therefore TT is going to have a much tougher time. I would support that assertion. There was no Toby Gerhart on the '22 team, for example. TT may never 'get there', but he clearly started with further to go.
That plus opponents have all been completely stacked with 23-year-old shouldn't-be-eligible-anymore Covid freebie super super seniors for the past couple years. This is the final year where that's the case.
And by the way, it was "this ugly" for half of the games last season.
RE: Never thought it would become this ugly - 82lsju - 10-06-2024
(10-06-2024, 01:42 PM)gailtate Wrote:(10-05-2024, 06:30 PM)82lsju Wrote:(10-05-2024, 06:26 PM)gailtate Wrote: We are staring into the abyss. The heart of darkness. The horror! The horror.!
I'm not sure we're quite to 2006 level of despair...
There was talent on Wlat's '06 team. Harbaugh used it in '07 as the foundational element of his Stanford career. Look where he had the program by '09. TT won't come close that by his third season.
true but in 2006 we didn't know any of the future was going to happen and the fanbase, including me, was pretty despairing in 2006...
RE: Never thought it would become this ugly - VB Card - 10-06-2024
(10-05-2024, 06:59 PM)d4cohn Wrote:(10-05-2024, 06:41 PM)CowboyIndian Wrote:(10-05-2024, 06:37 PM)d4cohn Wrote: All we need is someone to argue that this is somehow David Shaw's fault.
Glad to oblige. Miller Moss is having a really nice year at $C. That's just for starters.
Troy Taylor brought Lamson in as a transfer QB (not Shaw). So TT had the ability to, and did, upgrade the QB position through the portal to make up for any "empty cupboard" Shaw left.
If TT utilized his QB transfer on a quarterback who threw for barely 100 yards, averaged 4.3 yards per completion, and had 1 fewer TD pass than his RB, perhaps TT didn't do a good job evaluating the QB's in the transfer portal. A QB from New Mexico State who transferred to Vandy this year (so he had a strong enough academic profile to grad transfer to Vandy) just led his team to an upset of #1 ranked Alabama.
I have never heard Miller even considered Stanford, particularly in this NIL era when players like Austin Jones and Kiki Irafen went from Stanford to SC (not the other way around).
Miller Moss's mother went to Stanford and he wanted an offer. Shaw wouldn't offer him. Miller's younger sister is now a freshman at Stanford...