[CTcard]

[quote author=Mick link=topic=14252.msg155647#msg155647 date=1454621350]
...  I'd be interested in Buddha's comments on a bill he introduced to limit college professor tenure.  End of this page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Chelgren

... I will say this, the dimwit from Iowa did have a point on one thing in his education reform bill. I firmly believe that any faculty member in a position below provost level should have to teach at least 1 UG or Grad level course per term, the caveat being if they have enough research dollars to buy out.
[/quote]

How tenure actually operates is generally misunderstood, particularly by flame-throwing politicians.

In practice, it is somewhat difficult to get rid of people anywhere, very difficult at public institutions. The tenure evaluation is a formal process for getting rid of people where appropriate. The review process usually involves an analysis of teaching and research accomplishments at three separate levels  and involves acquiring around (where I've been at least) ten written evaluations from outside experts. At most decent research universities, a reasonable fraction of candidates don't  make it through; which means they're out of a job - it's up or out. Without this process, far fewer folks would be weeded out: it's quite painful and the folks denied are generally not incompetent, just not good enough across the board.

So, while the anti-tenure movements I have seen among politicians seem to be motivated by a belief that not enough incompetent professors are dumped, in fact their solution would end up in less weeding out of lower performers.

---------
There also aren't a significant number of professors who don't teach at least one course per term without buying out with research funds.* In fact the only ones I know of are either not full time employees** or department heads with significantly heavy administrative burdens.


* At least at Iowa public universities. There will be a sprinkling at Stanford and other elite schools - though even there they will usually be under some kind of complicated employment arrangment likely involving soft money.


**The state of Iowa has some in the not full time employee category. There are several folks with joint appointments between Ames National Laboratory and Iowa State University. Presumably when on the Ames Lab side of their job, they're not teaching in classrooms (they will be teaching several students in a mentoring fashion). If you force those guys out, you gut the strongest research effort in the state.

[CTcard]

[quote author=Mick link=topic=14252.msg155647#msg155647 date=1454621350]
...  I'd be interested in Buddha's comments on a bill he introduced to limit college professor tenure.  End of this page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Chelgren

... I will say this, the dimwit from Iowa did have a point on one thing in his education reform bill. I firmly believe that any faculty member in a position below provost level should have to teach at least 1 UG or Grad level course per term, the caveat being if they have enough research dollars to buy out.
[/quote]

How tenure actually operates is generally misunderstood, particularly by flame-throwing politicians.

In practice, it is somewhat difficult to get rid of people anywhere, very difficult at public institutions. The tenure evaluation is a formal process for getting rid of people where appropriate. The review process usually involves an analysis of teaching and research accomplishments at three separate levels  and involves acquiring around (where I've been at least) ten written evaluations from outside experts. At most decent research universities, a reasonable fraction of candidates don't  make it through; which means they're out of a job - it's up or out. Without this process, far fewer folks would be weeded out: it's quite painful and the folks denied are generally not incompetent, just not good enough across the board.

So, while the anti-tenure movements I have seen among politicians seem to be motivated by a belief that not enough incompetent professors are dumped, in fact their solution would end up in less weeding out of lower performers.

---------
There also aren't a significant number of professors who don't teach at least one course per term without buying out with research funds.* In fact the only ones I know of are either not full time employees** or department heads with significantly heavy administrative burdens.


* At least at Iowa public universities. There will be a sprinkling at Stanford and other elite schools - though even there they will usually be under some kind of complicated employment arrangment likely involving soft money.


**The state of Iowa has some in the not full time employee category. There are several folks with joint appointments between Ames National Laboratory and Iowa State University. Presumably when on the Ames Lab side of their job, they're not teaching in classrooms (they will be teaching several students in a mentoring fashion). If you force those guys out, you gut the strongest research effort in the state.