[donkey687]

Name a coach not named Saban or Dabo who has been a coach at a single college for more than 6 years who hasn't had a down cycle and at least one mediocre season or losing season?

[donkey687]

Name a coach not named Saban or Dabo who has been a coach at a single college for more than 6 years who hasn't had a down cycle and at least one mediocre season or losing season?

[SamuelMcF]

Name a coach not named Saban or Dabo who has been a coach at a single college for more than 6 years who hasn't had a down cycle and at least one mediocre season or losing season?

Pending success this year, and assuming you mean currently active coaches (so Urban Meyer doesn't count)...
Chris Petersen at 2 different schools.
Bryan Harsin at Boise.
Rocky Long at SDSU has never had a losing or .500 season. Same with James Franklin at Penn State.
And of course, I'm assuming the point of your statement, David Shaw...if this year somehow turns around.

[SamuelMcF]

Name a coach not named Saban or Dabo who has been a coach at a single college for more than 6 years who hasn't had a down cycle and at least one mediocre season or losing season?

Pending success this year, and assuming you mean currently active coaches (so Urban Meyer doesn't count)...
Chris Petersen at 2 different schools.
Bryan Harsin at Boise.
Rocky Long at SDSU has never had a losing or .500 season. Same with James Franklin at Penn State.
And of course, I'm assuming the point of your statement, David Shaw...if this year somehow turns around.

[Spiny_Norman]

Name a coach not named Saban or Dabo who has been a coach at a single college for more than 6 years who hasn't had a down cycle and at least one mediocre season or losing season?

Gary Patterson was 4-8 in 2013 then 12-1 in 2014. Back down to 6-7 in 2016 and up to 11-3 in 2017.
Kirk Ferentz had great success in the early years at Iowa then a losing season of 4-8 in 2012 before rebounding to 12-2 in 2015.
Mike Gundy went 12-1 and won the Fiesta Bowl (ouch, I know) in 2011. His teams since then have never had a losing record, though several were 6-6.
Kyle Whittingham's teams struggled early on in the Pac 12, but are now annual contenders.
Mark Dantonio was 3-9 in 2016 and rebounded to 10-3 the next season.
Pat Fitzgerald's teams also have been up and down. Same with Ken Niumatalolo at Navy.
Brian Kelly was 4-8 in 2016 and followed up with 10-3 and 12-1 the next two seasons.
Gus Malzahn has never had a losing season at Auburn. But any year in which he does not beat Alabama is a down year.

[Spiny_Norman]

Name a coach not named Saban or Dabo who has been a coach at a single college for more than 6 years who hasn't had a down cycle and at least one mediocre season or losing season?

Gary Patterson was 4-8 in 2013 then 12-1 in 2014. Back down to 6-7 in 2016 and up to 11-3 in 2017.
Kirk Ferentz had great success in the early years at Iowa then a losing season of 4-8 in 2012 before rebounding to 12-2 in 2015.
Mike Gundy went 12-1 and won the Fiesta Bowl (ouch, I know) in 2011. His teams since then have never had a losing record, though several were 6-6.
Kyle Whittingham's teams struggled early on in the Pac 12, but are now annual contenders.
Mark Dantonio was 3-9 in 2016 and rebounded to 10-3 the next season.
Pat Fitzgerald's teams also have been up and down. Same with Ken Niumatalolo at Navy.
Brian Kelly was 4-8 in 2016 and followed up with 10-3 and 12-1 the next two seasons.
Gus Malzahn has never had a losing season at Auburn. But any year in which he does not beat Alabama is a down year.

[Phogge]

In those down years did any of the teams have a QB who consistently threw into coverage?

[Phogge]

In those down years did any of the teams have a QB who consistently threw into coverage?

[2006alum]

Name a coach not named Saban or Dabo who has been a coach at a single college for more than 6 years who hasn't had a down cycle and at least one mediocre season or losing season?

Gary Patterson was 4-8 in 2013 then 12-1 in 2014. Back down to 6-7 in 2016 and up to 11-3 in 2017.
Kirk Ferentz had great success in the early years at Iowa then a losing season of 4-8 in 2012 before rebounding to 12-2 in 2015.
Mike Gundy went 12-1 and won the Fiesta Bowl (ouch, I know) in 2011. His teams since then have never had a losing record, though several were 6-6.
Kyle Whittingham's teams struggled early on in the Pac 12, but are now annual contenders.
Mark Dantonio was 3-9 in 2016 and rebounded to 10-3 the next season.
Pat Fitzgerald's teams also have been up and down. Same with Ken Niumatalolo at Navy.
Brian Kelly was 4-8 in 2016 and followed up with 10-3 and 12-1 the next two seasons.
Gus Malzahn has never had a losing season at Auburn. But any year in which he does not beat Alabama is a down year.

And it's striking to note that in the past 7 recruiting cycles, none of Alabama, Clemson, or Auburn has had a single recruiting year where their recruiting class was ranked lower than 13th; about half the time all three are in the top ten, with Clemson or Auburn settling at 10th-13th every other year or so. That kind of consistency in recruits year after year gives you lots of insurance against insurance, unexpected duds, etc. Shaw has never been able to count on that, and so his ability to avoid down seasons is even more a testament to the program he's built.

[2006alum]

Name a coach not named Saban or Dabo who has been a coach at a single college for more than 6 years who hasn't had a down cycle and at least one mediocre season or losing season?

Gary Patterson was 4-8 in 2013 then 12-1 in 2014. Back down to 6-7 in 2016 and up to 11-3 in 2017.
Kirk Ferentz had great success in the early years at Iowa then a losing season of 4-8 in 2012 before rebounding to 12-2 in 2015.
Mike Gundy went 12-1 and won the Fiesta Bowl (ouch, I know) in 2011. His teams since then have never had a losing record, though several were 6-6.
Kyle Whittingham's teams struggled early on in the Pac 12, but are now annual contenders.
Mark Dantonio was 3-9 in 2016 and rebounded to 10-3 the next season.
Pat Fitzgerald's teams also have been up and down. Same with Ken Niumatalolo at Navy.
Brian Kelly was 4-8 in 2016 and followed up with 10-3 and 12-1 the next two seasons.
Gus Malzahn has never had a losing season at Auburn. But any year in which he does not beat Alabama is a down year.

And it's striking to note that in the past 7 recruiting cycles, none of Alabama, Clemson, or Auburn has had a single recruiting year where their recruiting class was ranked lower than 13th; about half the time all three are in the top ten, with Clemson or Auburn settling at 10th-13th every other year or so. That kind of consistency in recruits year after year gives you lots of insurance against insurance, unexpected duds, etc. Shaw has never been able to count on that, and so his ability to avoid down seasons is even more a testament to the program he's built.

[AlbanyCardinal]

I think that's right -- that it's normal to expect any program and coach to have down years. My concern is that Shaw is less likely or able to shake up his staff, to delegate where he needs to, and to fix leaks in his program. I look around at other programs and coaches, and it strikes me that many of them do major shakeups, bring in new OCs/DCs, and relinquish some of the keys to the house. Kelly at ND did it, as has Saban. 

What do I know, but my gut tells me that Shaw needs to loosen his grip on a few things in order to make sure this down cycle doesn't turn into a long-term downward spin. For some here, that's hard to imagine happening.

[AlbanyCardinal]

I think that's right -- that it's normal to expect any program and coach to have down years. My concern is that Shaw is less likely or able to shake up his staff, to delegate where he needs to, and to fix leaks in his program. I look around at other programs and coaches, and it strikes me that many of them do major shakeups, bring in new OCs/DCs, and relinquish some of the keys to the house. Kelly at ND did it, as has Saban. 

What do I know, but my gut tells me that Shaw needs to loosen his grip on a few things in order to make sure this down cycle doesn't turn into a long-term downward spin. For some here, that's hard to imagine happening.

[BostonCard]

I think that's right -- that it's normal to expect any program and coach to have down years. My concern is that Shaw is less likely or able to shake up his staff, to delegate where he needs to, and to fix leaks in his program. I look around at other programs and coaches, and it strikes me that many of them do major shakeups, bring in new OCs/DCs, and relinquish some of the keys to the house. Kelly at ND did it, as has Saban. 

What do I know, but my gut tells me that Shaw needs to loosen his grip on a few things in order to make sure this down cycle doesn't turn into a long-term downward spin. For some here, that's hard to imagine happening.

Is there any evidence that coaches that "shake things up" are subsequently more likely to succeed (beyond reversion to the mean)?  I mean, I seem to remember a lot of coaches who will fire their coordinators, bring someone new, and then wind up getting fired when the subsequent season is no better.

For example, here's Jim Mora hiring a new offensive coordinator in January 2017 (https://www.apnews.com/b8141f6907ca419b9910c85902528586).  He was fired ten months later.


BC
BC

[BostonCard]

I think that's right -- that it's normal to expect any program and coach to have down years. My concern is that Shaw is less likely or able to shake up his staff, to delegate where he needs to, and to fix leaks in his program. I look around at other programs and coaches, and it strikes me that many of them do major shakeups, bring in new OCs/DCs, and relinquish some of the keys to the house. Kelly at ND did it, as has Saban. 

What do I know, but my gut tells me that Shaw needs to loosen his grip on a few things in order to make sure this down cycle doesn't turn into a long-term downward spin. For some here, that's hard to imagine happening.

Is there any evidence that coaches that "shake things up" are subsequently more likely to succeed (beyond reversion to the mean)?  I mean, I seem to remember a lot of coaches who will fire their coordinators, bring someone new, and then wind up getting fired when the subsequent season is no better.

For example, here's Jim Mora hiring a new offensive coordinator in January 2017 (https://www.apnews.com/b8141f6907ca419b9910c85902528586).  He was fired ten months later.


BC
BC

[cardcrimson]

I think that's right -- that it's normal to expect any program and coach to have down years. My concern is that Shaw is less likely or able to shake up his staff, to delegate where he needs to, and to fix leaks in his program. I look around at other programs and coaches, and it strikes me that many of them do major shakeups, bring in new OCs/DCs, and relinquish some of the keys to the house. Kelly at ND did it, as has Saban. 

What do I know, but my gut tells me that Shaw needs to loosen his grip on a few things in order to make sure this down cycle doesn't turn into a long-term downward spin. For some here, that's hard to imagine happening.

Is there any evidence that coaches that "shake things up" are subsequently more likely to succeed (beyond reversion to the mean)?  I mean, I seem to remember a lot of coaches who will fire their coordinators, bring someone new, and then wind up getting fired when the subsequent season is no better.

For example, here's Jim Mora hiring a new offensive coordinator in January 2017 (https://www.apnews.com/b8141f6907ca419b9910c85902528586).  He was fired ten months later.


BC
BC

Well, Saban seems to shake his assistants up with persistent regularity. Granted, he did have a down year last year.

[cardcrimson]

I think that's right -- that it's normal to expect any program and coach to have down years. My concern is that Shaw is less likely or able to shake up his staff, to delegate where he needs to, and to fix leaks in his program. I look around at other programs and coaches, and it strikes me that many of them do major shakeups, bring in new OCs/DCs, and relinquish some of the keys to the house. Kelly at ND did it, as has Saban. 

What do I know, but my gut tells me that Shaw needs to loosen his grip on a few things in order to make sure this down cycle doesn't turn into a long-term downward spin. For some here, that's hard to imagine happening.

Is there any evidence that coaches that "shake things up" are subsequently more likely to succeed (beyond reversion to the mean)?  I mean, I seem to remember a lot of coaches who will fire their coordinators, bring someone new, and then wind up getting fired when the subsequent season is no better.

For example, here's Jim Mora hiring a new offensive coordinator in January 2017 (https://www.apnews.com/b8141f6907ca419b9910c85902528586).  He was fired ten months later.


BC
BC

Well, Saban seems to shake his assistants up with persistent regularity. Granted, he did have a down year last year.

[donkey687]

The point of my question was to point out that a few coaches that we consider really good coaches like Dantonio at MSU, Iowa, Fitzgerald at NW, Patterson at TCU, have some ups and downs. All of their fans get frustrated in their down years and feel their coaches aren't that great while the rest of the college football landscape holds them in high esteem.  That is what we have here. I don't like the trend of our program, but I am taking the long view.  

By the way, is there anyone on our offense who is out of eligibility this season besides Scarlett?

[donkey687]

The point of my question was to point out that a few coaches that we consider really good coaches like Dantonio at MSU, Iowa, Fitzgerald at NW, Patterson at TCU, have some ups and downs. All of their fans get frustrated in their down years and feel their coaches aren't that great while the rest of the college football landscape holds them in high esteem.  That is what we have here. I don't like the trend of our program, but I am taking the long view.  

By the way, is there anyone on our offense who is out of eligibility this season besides Scarlett?

[Spiny_Norman]

By the way, is there anyone on our offense who is out of eligibility this season besides Scarlett?

From what I can tell, only Donald Stewart and Isaiah Brandt Sims. If Stewart does not play this year because of injuries, he would be eligible for a 5th year. IBS is playing this year on special teams but I have not seen him on offense.

[Spiny_Norman]

By the way, is there anyone on our offense who is out of eligibility this season besides Scarlett?

From what I can tell, only Donald Stewart and Isaiah Brandt Sims. If Stewart does not play this year because of injuries, he would be eligible for a 5th year. IBS is playing this year on special teams but I have not seen him on offense.

[SamuelMcF]

By the way, is there anyone on our offense who is out of eligibility this season besides Scarlett?

From what I can tell, only Donald Stewart and Isaiah Brandt Sims. If Stewart does not play this year because of injuries, he would be eligible for a 5th year. IBS is playing this year on special teams but I have not seen him on offense.

Yep, exactly right. Stewart has been over-recruited...he's perfectly healthy, I believe. I expect him to not play out his eligibility this season (maybe Shaw will throw him a couple bones in garbage time/Big Game/senior night vs ND, as long as it's 4 or fewer games) and grad transfer.

Crazy that we have 4 total players (Scarlett, IBS, Toohill, Beecher) out of eligibility on the team, all 5th years (counting IBS). That's it. Four. Crazy. I think the fewest in the Shaw era before this was 6 in 2017, which was already pretty low as it stood.

[SamuelMcF]

By the way, is there anyone on our offense who is out of eligibility this season besides Scarlett?

From what I can tell, only Donald Stewart and Isaiah Brandt Sims. If Stewart does not play this year because of injuries, he would be eligible for a 5th year. IBS is playing this year on special teams but I have not seen him on offense.

Yep, exactly right. Stewart has been over-recruited...he's perfectly healthy, I believe. I expect him to not play out his eligibility this season (maybe Shaw will throw him a couple bones in garbage time/Big Game/senior night vs ND, as long as it's 4 or fewer games) and grad transfer.

Crazy that we have 4 total players (Scarlett, IBS, Toohill, Beecher) out of eligibility on the team, all 5th years (counting IBS). That's it. Four. Crazy. I think the fewest in the Shaw era before this was 6 in 2017, which was already pretty low as it stood.

[AlbanyCardinal]

"Is there any evidence that coaches that "shake things up" are subsequently more likely to succeed (beyond reversion to the mean)?  I mean, I seem to remember a lot of coaches who will fire their coordinators, bring someone new, and then wind up getting fired when the subsequent season is no better."

Hmmm, I wonder. I'd wonder about the opposite, too. How many have maintained success in the modern era, without making such changes? I don't know in either case. You're right that many coaches have fired and hired as a last-ditch effort to hold onto their head-coaching jobs, but I think there's a difference here. Many have worried about TP's qualifications for getting the OC. Is it relevant that TP is one of Shaw's mentorees, so that if Shaw has limitations as a play caller and schemer, they're compounded by having TP as OC? Also, is it odd or unusual that Shaw hasn't fired anyone or initiated changes among his staff, instead only hiring new coaches when losing some of his own? 

For me this isn't about Shaw with his back to the wall this season b/c, gasp, he's likely on course to have his first losing season. It's much more about a continuum that spans back several years at least. I'd like to see him make some calculated changes -- not a full-on house cleaning, mind you -- in an effort to plug some of the leaks in his program.

[AlbanyCardinal]

"Is there any evidence that coaches that "shake things up" are subsequently more likely to succeed (beyond reversion to the mean)?  I mean, I seem to remember a lot of coaches who will fire their coordinators, bring someone new, and then wind up getting fired when the subsequent season is no better."

Hmmm, I wonder. I'd wonder about the opposite, too. How many have maintained success in the modern era, without making such changes? I don't know in either case. You're right that many coaches have fired and hired as a last-ditch effort to hold onto their head-coaching jobs, but I think there's a difference here. Many have worried about TP's qualifications for getting the OC. Is it relevant that TP is one of Shaw's mentorees, so that if Shaw has limitations as a play caller and schemer, they're compounded by having TP as OC? Also, is it odd or unusual that Shaw hasn't fired anyone or initiated changes among his staff, instead only hiring new coaches when losing some of his own? 

For me this isn't about Shaw with his back to the wall this season b/c, gasp, he's likely on course to have his first losing season. It's much more about a continuum that spans back several years at least. I'd like to see him make some calculated changes -- not a full-on house cleaning, mind you -- in an effort to plug some of the leaks in his program.

[winflop]

Name a coach not named Saban or Dabo who has been a coach at a single college for more than 6 years who hasn't had a down cycle and at least one mediocre season or losing season?

Gary Patterson was 4-8 in 2013 then 12-1 in 2014. Back down to 6-7 in 2016 and up to 11-3 in 2017.
Kirk Ferentz had great success in the early years at Iowa then a losing season of 4-8 in 2012 before rebounding to 12-2 in 2015.
Mike Gundy went 12-1 and won the Fiesta Bowl (ouch, I know) in 2011. His teams since then have never had a losing record, though several were 6-6.
Kyle Whittingham's teams struggled early on in the Pac 12, but are now annual contenders.
Mark Dantonio was 3-9 in 2016 and rebounded to 10-3 the next season.
Pat Fitzgerald's teams also have been up and down. Same with Ken Niumatalolo at Navy.
Brian Kelly was 4-8 in 2016 and followed up with 10-3 and 12-1 the next two seasons.
Gus Malzahn has never had a losing season at Auburn. But any year in which he does not beat Alabama is a down year.

And it's striking to note that in the past 7 recruiting cycles, none of Alabama, Clemson, or Auburn has had a single recruiting year where their recruiting class was ranked lower than 13th; about half the time all three are in the top ten, with Clemson or Auburn settling at 10th-13th every other year or so. That kind of consistency in recruits year after year gives you lots of insurance against insurance, unexpected duds, etc. Shaw has never been able to count on that, and so his ability to avoid down seasons is even more a testament to the program he's built.

It's not just quality it's quantity. Also it should be noted that at least two of those programs (Alabama & Auburn) regularly pull scholarships for football performance reasons. I never want to see Stanford do it, and I don't expect that it will. But at the same time the current roster is nearly 10 scholarships short of the 85 maximum. That's too low and we can see the impact on the field and the depth chart.

There is an underlying trend of more early draft entries, medical retirements, and grad transfers. Anderson, and head of recruiting, has not adjusted to this new reality and it has come to bite us in the butt this year in particular.

[winflop]

Name a coach not named Saban or Dabo who has been a coach at a single college for more than 6 years who hasn't had a down cycle and at least one mediocre season or losing season?

Gary Patterson was 4-8 in 2013 then 12-1 in 2014. Back down to 6-7 in 2016 and up to 11-3 in 2017.
Kirk Ferentz had great success in the early years at Iowa then a losing season of 4-8 in 2012 before rebounding to 12-2 in 2015.
Mike Gundy went 12-1 and won the Fiesta Bowl (ouch, I know) in 2011. His teams since then have never had a losing record, though several were 6-6.
Kyle Whittingham's teams struggled early on in the Pac 12, but are now annual contenders.
Mark Dantonio was 3-9 in 2016 and rebounded to 10-3 the next season.
Pat Fitzgerald's teams also have been up and down. Same with Ken Niumatalolo at Navy.
Brian Kelly was 4-8 in 2016 and followed up with 10-3 and 12-1 the next two seasons.
Gus Malzahn has never had a losing season at Auburn. But any year in which he does not beat Alabama is a down year.

And it's striking to note that in the past 7 recruiting cycles, none of Alabama, Clemson, or Auburn has had a single recruiting year where their recruiting class was ranked lower than 13th; about half the time all three are in the top ten, with Clemson or Auburn settling at 10th-13th every other year or so. That kind of consistency in recruits year after year gives you lots of insurance against insurance, unexpected duds, etc. Shaw has never been able to count on that, and so his ability to avoid down seasons is even more a testament to the program he's built.

It's not just quality it's quantity. Also it should be noted that at least two of those programs (Alabama & Auburn) regularly pull scholarships for football performance reasons. I never want to see Stanford do it, and I don't expect that it will. But at the same time the current roster is nearly 10 scholarships short of the 85 maximum. That's too low and we can see the impact on the field and the depth chart.

There is an underlying trend of more early draft entries, medical retirements, and grad transfers. Anderson, and head of recruiting, has not adjusted to this new reality and it has come to bite us in the butt this year in particular.

[winflop]

Name a coach not named Saban or Dabo who has been a coach at a single college for more than 6 years who hasn't had a down cycle and at least one mediocre season or losing season?

I'm less concerned that there is a down cycle. I'm more concerned that Shaw won't make changes to get out of it and that it will perpetuate into the future. Really hope I'm wrong

[winflop]

Name a coach not named Saban or Dabo who has been a coach at a single college for more than 6 years who hasn't had a down cycle and at least one mediocre season or losing season?

I'm less concerned that there is a down cycle. I'm more concerned that Shaw won't make changes to get out of it and that it will perpetuate into the future. Really hope I'm wrong

[murky]

Name a coach not named Saban or Dabo who has been a coach at a single college for more than 6 years who hasn't had a down cycle and at least one mediocre season or losing season?

I'm less concerned that there is a down cycle. I'm more concerned that Shaw won't make changes to get out of it and that it will perpetuate into the future. Really hope I'm wrong

Shaw has a successful operation over his career at Stanford.  Why do people assume that making big changes to how he does things will lead to greater overall success?

[murky]

Name a coach not named Saban or Dabo who has been a coach at a single college for more than 6 years who hasn't had a down cycle and at least one mediocre season or losing season?

I'm less concerned that there is a down cycle. I'm more concerned that Shaw won't make changes to get out of it and that it will perpetuate into the future. Really hope I'm wrong

Shaw has a successful operation over his career at Stanford.  Why do people assume that making big changes to how he does things will lead to greater overall success?