[JohnR34231]

I am frankly baffled as to what happened this year. 

The wheels really came off when ODS went down.  From competitive to not at all.  The lack of any post presence was too much, apparently.

Which of course makes you wonder how we will do next year, since we in all probability won't have him.

[JohnR34231]

I am frankly baffled as to what happened this year. 

The wheels really came off when ODS went down.  From competitive to not at all.  The lack of any post presence was too much, apparently.

Which of course makes you wonder how we will do next year, since we in all probability won't have him.

[Phogge]

Stanford football is not one of the 20 or so elite programs that have been consistently competitive for most of a century. But it had its Kerr/Warner/Thornhill period, Coach Shag and the T Formation, 1951, Ralston, The Sheriff and Harballs/Shaw. Not bad.

Hoops has had Liusetti, The NCAA title, a couple of good teams under Dallmar and Monty. Not much tradition overall.

Perhaps Monty was Arthur and those years were Camelot. Never to be repeated.

[Phogge]

Stanford football is not one of the 20 or so elite programs that have been consistently competitive for most of a century. But it had its Kerr/Warner/Thornhill period, Coach Shag and the T Formation, 1951, Ralston, The Sheriff and Harballs/Shaw. Not bad.

Hoops has had Liusetti, The NCAA title, a couple of good teams under Dallmar and Monty. Not much tradition overall.

Perhaps Monty was Arthur and those years were Camelot. Never to be repeated.

[BobK]

Williams quit if you heard Ted Robinson’s comment. No he didn’t say that exactly
In any case he left he’s gone

Davis is a Sr graduates and will probably be a grad transfer to somewhere

DaSilva is interesting. Does he believe in Haase ? Will he think the team can be better without Williams and Davis? Is he interested in a grad degree which seems so. If so Stanford ? elsewhere ?

Who will enter the portal. O’Connell is my prime concern watching him
Play hard and try to gather his teammates on the floor last night and ignored by some
Going to be quite an off season

What about Haase? He has certainly failed

[BobK]

Williams quit if you heard Ted Robinson’s comment. No he didn’t say that exactly
In any case he left he’s gone

Davis is a Sr graduates and will probably be a grad transfer to somewhere

DaSilva is interesting. Does he believe in Haase ? Will he think the team can be better without Williams and Davis? Is he interested in a grad degree which seems so. If so Stanford ? elsewhere ?

Who will enter the portal. O’Connell is my prime concern watching him
Play hard and try to gather his teammates on the floor last night and ignored by some
Going to be quite an off season

What about Haase? He has certainly failed

[winflop]

Since my kid is practicing for the SAT, I will try analogies:


Dawkins: Haase :: Teevens :



A. Walt Harris

B. Tyrone Willingham

C. Mike Montgomery

D. David Shaw

E. Jim Harbaugh



My point, as it was, is that just because the guy who came after Teevens sucked, doesn't mean it was the wrong call to fire Teevens, just as the fact that just because Haase has been a failure doesn't mean it was the wrong call to fire Dawkins.



Just hoping the analogy continues, and the next guy is the MBB equivalent of Harbaugh.



BC

Does anyone here have confidence that "basketball guy" Muir is capable of hiring a Harbaugh?

[winflop]

Since my kid is practicing for the SAT, I will try analogies:


Dawkins: Haase :: Teevens :



A. Walt Harris

B. Tyrone Willingham

C. Mike Montgomery

D. David Shaw

E. Jim Harbaugh



My point, as it was, is that just because the guy who came after Teevens sucked, doesn't mean it was the wrong call to fire Teevens, just as the fact that just because Haase has been a failure doesn't mean it was the wrong call to fire Dawkins.



Just hoping the analogy continues, and the next guy is the MBB equivalent of Harbaugh.



BC

Does anyone here have confidence that "basketball guy" Muir is capable of hiring a Harbaugh?

[gailtate]

Stanford football is not one of the 20 or so elite programs that have been consistently competitive for most of a century. But it had its Kerr/Warner/Thornhill period, Coach Shag and the T Formation, 1951, Ralston, The Sheriff and Harballs/Shaw. Not bad.

Hoops has had Liusetti, The NCAA title, a couple of good teams under Dallmar and Monty. Not much tradition overall.

Perhaps Monty was Arthur and those years were Camelot. Never to be repeated.

Quite right. Stanford is the Stanford of college hoops. Hell, historically even the WEENIES are superior.

[gailtate]

Stanford football is not one of the 20 or so elite programs that have been consistently competitive for most of a century. But it had its Kerr/Warner/Thornhill period, Coach Shag and the T Formation, 1951, Ralston, The Sheriff and Harballs/Shaw. Not bad.

Hoops has had Liusetti, The NCAA title, a couple of good teams under Dallmar and Monty. Not much tradition overall.

Perhaps Monty was Arthur and those years were Camelot. Never to be repeated.

Quite right. Stanford is the Stanford of college hoops. Hell, historically even the WEENIES are superior.

[BobK]

Y hiring a Harbaugh you mean someone to coach for 4 years then leave? Always something to consider

[BobK]

Y hiring a Harbaugh you mean someone to coach for 4 years then leave? Always something to consider

[Phogge]

12-1 in his fourth year. Translates to 36-3. I would take a final fourth year like that.

[Phogge]

12-1 in his fourth year. Translates to 36-3. I would take a final fourth year like that.

[winflop]

Y hiring a Harbaugh you mean someone to coach for 4 years then leave?  Always something to consider

Hiring someone who leaves for a better opportunity after 3 or more years should be considered a success after the last decade-plus. Sadly that is the best we can hope for. This is not a destination for any good coach.

[winflop]

Y hiring a Harbaugh you mean someone to coach for 4 years then leave?  Always something to consider

Hiring someone who leaves for a better opportunity after 3 or more years should be considered a success after the last decade-plus. Sadly that is the best we can hope for. This is not a destination for any good coach.

[BostonCard]

Y hiring a Harbaugh you mean someone to coach for 4 years then leave?  Always something to consider

I'd be ok hiring the basketball equivalent of Harbaugh; someone good enough to take us to the NCAA tournament in his third year and a final four in his fourth year before leaving, especially if his successor is the bball equivalent of Shaw and wins the Pac-12 championship three times and takes us to the NCAA tournament 9 times in 10 years.

BC

[BostonCard]

Y hiring a Harbaugh you mean someone to coach for 4 years then leave?  Always something to consider

I'd be ok hiring the basketball equivalent of Harbaugh; someone good enough to take us to the NCAA tournament in his third year and a final four in his fourth year before leaving, especially if his successor is the bball equivalent of Shaw and wins the Pac-12 championship three times and takes us to the NCAA tournament 9 times in 10 years.

BC

[BobK]

Lol BC. Yes that would be ideal. Ah here comes Tom Davis

---

An add Davis lead Boston College to an elite 8 then was hired by Stanford

[BobK]

Lol BC. Yes that would be ideal. Ah here comes Tom Davis

---

An add Davis lead Boston College to an elite 8 then was hired by Stanford

[Phogge]

Tom Davis was no Tommy Davis. A Hall of Famer until he shattered his ankle.

AKA, Stanford has been blistered by the press and alumni for dropping the 11 sports. Head stuck in the sand when contributions flow in to bring back some of the sports a la Cal baseball. Bernard the “Basketball Man” failed in his hoops hire.

A solution... when Tara wins the title let her go out on top. Kate Paye is more than ready. Send Bernard out the door and make Tara an offer she can’t refuse. Where is Luca Brasi when you need him?

[Phogge]

Tom Davis was no Tommy Davis. A Hall of Famer until he shattered his ankle.

AKA, Stanford has been blistered by the press and alumni for dropping the 11 sports. Head stuck in the sand when contributions flow in to bring back some of the sports a la Cal baseball. Bernard the “Basketball Man” failed in his hoops hire.

A solution... when Tara wins the title let her go out on top. Kate Paye is more than ready. Send Bernard out the door and make Tara an offer she can’t refuse. Where is Luca Brasi when you need him?

[winflop]

Lol BC.  Yes that would be ideal.  Ah here comes Tom Davis

We need a coach who can improve results like Davis did, but not a coach who delivers the same record as Davis did.

Davis' record wasn't materially different from Dawkins' or Haase's, but his predecessor was far worse and failed to win even 10 games in his final 3 seasons.

---

Tom Davis was no Tommy Davis. A Hall of Famer until he shattered his ankle.

AKA, Stanford has been blistered by the press and alumni for dropping the 11 sports. Head stuck in the sand when contributions flow in to bring back some of the sports a la Cal baseball. Bernard the “Basketball Man” failed in his hoops hire.

A solution... when Tara wins the title let her go out on top. Kate Paye is more than ready. Send Bernard out the door and make Tara an offer she can’t refuse. Where is Luca Brasi when you need him?

Fingers crossed that Muir gets the Pac-12 top job, but I'm not sure that Tara would make a good AD. Very different job. More likely she stays involved with basketball in some capacity, but I don't see her hanging it up yet.

[winflop]

Lol BC.  Yes that would be ideal.  Ah here comes Tom Davis

We need a coach who can improve results like Davis did, but not a coach who delivers the same record as Davis did.

Davis' record wasn't materially different from Dawkins' or Haase's, but his predecessor was far worse and failed to win even 10 games in his final 3 seasons.

---

Tom Davis was no Tommy Davis. A Hall of Famer until he shattered his ankle.

AKA, Stanford has been blistered by the press and alumni for dropping the 11 sports. Head stuck in the sand when contributions flow in to bring back some of the sports a la Cal baseball. Bernard the “Basketball Man” failed in his hoops hire.

A solution... when Tara wins the title let her go out on top. Kate Paye is more than ready. Send Bernard out the door and make Tara an offer she can’t refuse. Where is Luca Brasi when you need him?

Fingers crossed that Muir gets the Pac-12 top job, but I'm not sure that Tara would make a good AD. Very different job. More likely she stays involved with basketball in some capacity, but I don't see her hanging it up yet.

[Goose]

If it were easy to predict the success (or failure) of any given coaching hire there would be no need for the Cardboard. Every school would have a great coach and win 30 games a year. Never mind the math of that outcome. Haase certainly appears to be in over his head as far as "managing" this team goes. It may well be he can recruit guys that he can't subsequently lead. It also may be that this team had personalities that nobody could lead, but in that case it is on the coach to not offer those guys.

Like many here on this board I do not expect Haase to be replaced for the coming year. I do think there is a non-zero chance he will quit, but even that is improbable. Next year, who knows? We have some good pieces, at least on paper. We lack a "big man", but the freshmen played pretty well there for a while. Da Silva is probably gone, and we do not have an "obvious" replacement.

What I don't grok is the degree to which our shooting fell apart during this "personnel issue". I can understand that lack of "cohesion" could lead to many fewer shot opportunities, but when those opportunities came we couldn't hit anything. Shooting isn't a "team thing". Yet the basket seemed to have a lid on it, and not just for one guy. Nobody could hit anything like their "normal" percentage it seemed. While I understand that one may be depressed by the "social situation", it is hard for me to grasp totally falling off a cliff in individual skills.

[Goose]

If it were easy to predict the success (or failure) of any given coaching hire there would be no need for the Cardboard. Every school would have a great coach and win 30 games a year. Never mind the math of that outcome. Haase certainly appears to be in over his head as far as "managing" this team goes. It may well be he can recruit guys that he can't subsequently lead. It also may be that this team had personalities that nobody could lead, but in that case it is on the coach to not offer those guys.

Like many here on this board I do not expect Haase to be replaced for the coming year. I do think there is a non-zero chance he will quit, but even that is improbable. Next year, who knows? We have some good pieces, at least on paper. We lack a "big man", but the freshmen played pretty well there for a while. Da Silva is probably gone, and we do not have an "obvious" replacement.

What I don't grok is the degree to which our shooting fell apart during this "personnel issue". I can understand that lack of "cohesion" could lead to many fewer shot opportunities, but when those opportunities came we couldn't hit anything. Shooting isn't a "team thing". Yet the basket seemed to have a lid on it, and not just for one guy. Nobody could hit anything like their "normal" percentage it seemed. While I understand that one may be depressed by the "social situation", it is hard for me to grasp totally falling off a cliff in individual skills.

[burger]

Where is Luca Brasi when you need him?

Sleeping with the fishes, of course.

[burger]

Where is Luca Brasi when you need him?

Sleeping with the fishes, of course.

[Phogge]

The fish takes the bait. Thanks!

[Phogge]

The fish takes the bait. Thanks!

[PVTree]

I suspect that Delaire will take on the big man role Oscar filled, despite Oscar being more of a power forward (slim one at that) than a center. To my eye, they are very similar.

I was happily surprised at Lukas. He did better than I expected. He will need to improve his shooting (missed too many layups and got blocked too often) and practice on his free throw shooting.

[PVTree]

I suspect that Delaire will take on the big man role Oscar filled, despite Oscar being more of a power forward (slim one at that) than a center. To my eye, they are very similar.

I was happily surprised at Lukas. He did better than I expected. He will need to improve his shooting (missed too many layups and got blocked too often) and practice on his free throw shooting.

[donkey687]

Williams quit if you heard Ted Robinson’s comment.  No he didn’t say that exactly
In any case he left he’s gone

Davis is a Sr graduates and will probably be a grad transfer to somewhere

DaSilva is interesting.  Does he believe in Haase ?  Will he think the team can be better without Williams and Davis?  Is he interested in a grad degree which seems so.  If so Stanford ? elsewhere ?

Who will enter the portal.  O’Connell is my prime concern watching him
Play hard and try to gather his teammates on the floor last night and ignored by some
Going to be quite an off season

What about Haase?  He has certainly failed

DaSilva will most certainly pursue some type of professional basketball career before pursuing his graduate school pursuits. What have you heard about Wills?  Even before the big blow up this year, I heard that Wills was planning on moving on after this season.

[donkey687]

Williams quit if you heard Ted Robinson’s comment.  No he didn’t say that exactly
In any case he left he’s gone

Davis is a Sr graduates and will probably be a grad transfer to somewhere

DaSilva is interesting.  Does he believe in Haase ?  Will he think the team can be better without Williams and Davis?  Is he interested in a grad degree which seems so.  If so Stanford ? elsewhere ?

Who will enter the portal.  O’Connell is my prime concern watching him
Play hard and try to gather his teammates on the floor last night and ignored by some
Going to be quite an off season

What about Haase?  He has certainly failed

DaSilva will most certainly pursue some type of professional basketball career before pursuing his graduate school pursuits. What have you heard about Wills?  Even before the big blow up this year, I heard that Wills was planning on moving on after this season.

[Jamesy]

Lol BC.  Yes that would be ideal.  Ah here comes Tom Davis

We need a coach who can improve results like Davis did, but not a coach who delivers the same record as Davis did.

Davis' record wasn't materially different from Dawkins' or Haase's, but his predecessor was far worse and failed to win even 10 games in his final 3 seasons.

---

Tom Davis was no Tommy Davis. A Hall of Famer until he shattered his ankle.

AKA, Stanford has been blistered by the press and alumni for dropping the 11 sports. Head stuck in the sand when contributions flow in to bring back some of the sports a la Cal baseball. Bernard the “Basketball Man” failed in his hoops hire.

A solution... when Tara wins the title let her go out on top. Kate Paye is more than ready. Send Bernard out the door and make Tara an offer she can’t refuse. Where is Luca Brasi when you need him?

Fingers crossed that Muir gets the Pac-12 top job, but I'm not sure that Tara would make a good AD. Very different job. More likely she stays involved with basketball in some capacity, but I don't see her hanging it up yet.

Offer Tara the men's job.

[Jamesy]

Lol BC.  Yes that would be ideal.  Ah here comes Tom Davis

We need a coach who can improve results like Davis did, but not a coach who delivers the same record as Davis did.

Davis' record wasn't materially different from Dawkins' or Haase's, but his predecessor was far worse and failed to win even 10 games in his final 3 seasons.

---

Tom Davis was no Tommy Davis. A Hall of Famer until he shattered his ankle.

AKA, Stanford has been blistered by the press and alumni for dropping the 11 sports. Head stuck in the sand when contributions flow in to bring back some of the sports a la Cal baseball. Bernard the “Basketball Man” failed in his hoops hire.

A solution... when Tara wins the title let her go out on top. Kate Paye is more than ready. Send Bernard out the door and make Tara an offer she can’t refuse. Where is Luca Brasi when you need him?

Fingers crossed that Muir gets the Pac-12 top job, but I'm not sure that Tara would make a good AD. Very different job. More likely she stays involved with basketball in some capacity, but I don't see her hanging it up yet.

Offer Tara the men's job.

[Phogge]

Bingo!

[Phogge]

Bingo!

[BillBradley]

If it were easy to predict the success (or failure) of any given coaching hire there would be no need for the Cardboard. Every school would have a great coach and win 30 games a year. Never mind the math of that outcome. Haase certainly appears to be in over his head as far as "managing" this team goes. It may well be he can recruit guys that he can't subsequently lead. It also may be that this team had personalities that nobody could lead, but in that case it is on the coach to not offer those guys.

Like many here on this board I do not expect Haase to be replaced for the coming year. I do think there is a non-zero chance he will quit, but even that is improbable. Next year, who knows? We have some good pieces, at least on paper. We lack a "big man", but the freshmen played pretty well there for a while. Da Silva is probably gone, and we do not have an "obvious" replacement.

What I don't grok is the degree to which our shooting fell apart during this "personnel issue". I can understand that lack of "cohesion" could lead to many fewer shot opportunities, but when those opportunities came we couldn't hit anything. Shooting isn't a "team thing". Yet the basket seemed to have a lid on it, and not just for one guy. Nobody could hit anything like their "normal" percentage it seemed. While I understand that one may be depressed by the "social situation", it is hard for me to grasp totally falling off a cliff in individual skills.

Goose, the points you raise about our shooting are so intriguing to me and ones that are constantly debated in my basketball circle. Personally, I've landed on this breakdown (for sure interested in yours/others thoughts)...I believe to shoot at a high percentage, teams require 2 main things: 1) Players who have the skill to make shots, whether they are 3's, mid-range, or finishing at the hoop.
2) A crisply executed offensive system where players are unselfish, believe in each other, and know how to produce quality shots.

I think we would be surprised at the number of guys we have in category #1. DaSilva is an incredible finisher at the basket, but not when he's triple teamed. I think DeLaire is pretty good too. Kasunas needs improvement (case in point that dunk that got swatted last night, he should have gone up on the left side of the basket and used the rim for protection). Undoubtedly Spencer Jones, left wide open, will make 3's at a high percentage. As will Taitz, and Angel. ODS, O'Connell, DeLaire, and Davis are pretty average perimeter shooters. ZW might be a great open shooter, but I'm not willing to give him that based on performance. Wills can't even make free throws. If he makes a 3 it's pretty lucky IMO. He's a defensive specialist.  O'Connell is a good finisher and has a nice mid-range.

#2 is where our problem lies, and it's what so many other teams struggle with and what Gonzaga is so good at. I believe there is a high correlation between teams with poor chemistry, poor offensive effort and their shooting %. That's because by and large, you don't get many high quality looks for the playes as described in category #1 above. Spencer Jones ALL SEASON got very few open looks. His shots were more contested than they were last year with Terry on the court. Jones is not a Lillard type who can make shots with guys draped all over him. He is highly capable of making open shots, but when he's not open he's not so great. Last night, he got 2 open shots. He made 1. His others were all contested. ODS and DeLaire got very few 1x1 opportunities where they can be effective. DeLaire kept dribbling around and around trying to create, and nothing was there. Why do those things happen and players don't get open/high quality shots? Poor offensive effort, stemming from no chemistry and no belief (just like people who don't like their jobs = no effort). As an example, what Davis did last night is massively detrimental to the team. He literally just stood there on offense for most of his 14 minutes. So now you're playing with a lineup that includes Wills who can't shoot, Davis standing there, Kasunas who isn't much of a threat, and the other guys like O'Connell, ODS, DeLaire, and sometimes Jones trying their hardest to find an open look. That is massively frustrating, why there are no smiles, and why the team's shooting % went in the tank.

[BillBradley]

If it were easy to predict the success (or failure) of any given coaching hire there would be no need for the Cardboard. Every school would have a great coach and win 30 games a year. Never mind the math of that outcome. Haase certainly appears to be in over his head as far as "managing" this team goes. It may well be he can recruit guys that he can't subsequently lead. It also may be that this team had personalities that nobody could lead, but in that case it is on the coach to not offer those guys.

Like many here on this board I do not expect Haase to be replaced for the coming year. I do think there is a non-zero chance he will quit, but even that is improbable. Next year, who knows? We have some good pieces, at least on paper. We lack a "big man", but the freshmen played pretty well there for a while. Da Silva is probably gone, and we do not have an "obvious" replacement.

What I don't grok is the degree to which our shooting fell apart during this "personnel issue". I can understand that lack of "cohesion" could lead to many fewer shot opportunities, but when those opportunities came we couldn't hit anything. Shooting isn't a "team thing". Yet the basket seemed to have a lid on it, and not just for one guy. Nobody could hit anything like their "normal" percentage it seemed. While I understand that one may be depressed by the "social situation", it is hard for me to grasp totally falling off a cliff in individual skills.

Goose, the points you raise about our shooting are so intriguing to me and ones that are constantly debated in my basketball circle. Personally, I've landed on this breakdown (for sure interested in yours/others thoughts)...I believe to shoot at a high percentage, teams require 2 main things: 1) Players who have the skill to make shots, whether they are 3's, mid-range, or finishing at the hoop.
2) A crisply executed offensive system where players are unselfish, believe in each other, and know how to produce quality shots.

I think we would be surprised at the number of guys we have in category #1. DaSilva is an incredible finisher at the basket, but not when he's triple teamed. I think DeLaire is pretty good too. Kasunas needs improvement (case in point that dunk that got swatted last night, he should have gone up on the left side of the basket and used the rim for protection). Undoubtedly Spencer Jones, left wide open, will make 3's at a high percentage. As will Taitz, and Angel. ODS, O'Connell, DeLaire, and Davis are pretty average perimeter shooters. ZW might be a great open shooter, but I'm not willing to give him that based on performance. Wills can't even make free throws. If he makes a 3 it's pretty lucky IMO. He's a defensive specialist.  O'Connell is a good finisher and has a nice mid-range.

#2 is where our problem lies, and it's what so many other teams struggle with and what Gonzaga is so good at. I believe there is a high correlation between teams with poor chemistry, poor offensive effort and their shooting %. That's because by and large, you don't get many high quality looks for the playes as described in category #1 above. Spencer Jones ALL SEASON got very few open looks. His shots were more contested than they were last year with Terry on the court. Jones is not a Lillard type who can make shots with guys draped all over him. He is highly capable of making open shots, but when he's not open he's not so great. Last night, he got 2 open shots. He made 1. His others were all contested. ODS and DeLaire got very few 1x1 opportunities where they can be effective. DeLaire kept dribbling around and around trying to create, and nothing was there. Why do those things happen and players don't get open/high quality shots? Poor offensive effort, stemming from no chemistry and no belief (just like people who don't like their jobs = no effort). As an example, what Davis did last night is massively detrimental to the team. He literally just stood there on offense for most of his 14 minutes. So now you're playing with a lineup that includes Wills who can't shoot, Davis standing there, Kasunas who isn't much of a threat, and the other guys like O'Connell, ODS, DeLaire, and sometimes Jones trying their hardest to find an open look. That is massively frustrating, why there are no smiles, and why the team's shooting % went in the tank.