[CowboyIndian]

Spiny, your signature line says it all. This falls into that category.

[CowboyIndian]

Spiny, your signature line says it all. This falls into that category.

[washingtonismoney]

I just thought it might be interesting before we take up McClellan's tactics at Antietam, the next logical chain in this thread.

Did McClellan fail a post-battle breathalyzer too?

McClellan could've used a little liquid courage.

[washingtonismoney]

I just thought it might be interesting before we take up McClellan's tactics at Antietam, the next logical chain in this thread.

Did McClellan fail a post-battle breathalyzer too?

McClellan could've used a little liquid courage.

[terry]

McClellan could've used a little liquid courage.

I wonder whether Lincoln was thinking of McClellan when someone complained about Grant's drinking and Lincoln replied "tell me the brand of whiskey that Grant drinks. I would like to send a barrel of it to my other generals."

[terry]

McClellan could've used a little liquid courage.

I wonder whether Lincoln was thinking of McClellan when someone complained about Grant's drinking and Lincoln replied "tell me the brand of whiskey that Grant drinks. I would like to send a barrel of it to my other generals."

[pefloresjr]

Re somnambule's musings over whether jurors demand CSI-style evidence these days, prosecutors for sure worry about that. Two years ago I was called as a prospective juror on an armed robbery case. When the prosecutor, during voir dire, learned that I write about TV for a living, he launch a protracted set of questions about whether I believed CSI was an authentic representation of police work. Even when I said no, he kept hammering away for several minutes: Do you think that there should be crime-lab verification for every single thing somebody says during a criminal trial? And on and on. He was clearly trying to make a point to everybody who was going to sit on the jury.

Garvin,
I do the same thing.  I look for an opportunity to raise the issue during jury selection, I discuss it in my opening statement and again in my closing argument.  The CSI effect is a big problem especially when combimed with many juror's increasing distrust of government and the police.  Add in a general unwillingness to take personal responsibility or hold others responsible and a guilty verdict almost seems like a miracle these days. 
Cheers,
Pete F.

[pefloresjr]

Re somnambule's musings over whether jurors demand CSI-style evidence these days, prosecutors for sure worry about that. Two years ago I was called as a prospective juror on an armed robbery case. When the prosecutor, during voir dire, learned that I write about TV for a living, he launch a protracted set of questions about whether I believed CSI was an authentic representation of police work. Even when I said no, he kept hammering away for several minutes: Do you think that there should be crime-lab verification for every single thing somebody says during a criminal trial? And on and on. He was clearly trying to make a point to everybody who was going to sit on the jury.

Garvin,
I do the same thing.  I look for an opportunity to raise the issue during jury selection, I discuss it in my opening statement and again in my closing argument.  The CSI effect is a big problem especially when combimed with many juror's increasing distrust of government and the police.  Add in a general unwillingness to take personal responsibility or hold others responsible and a guilty verdict almost seems like a miracle these days. 
Cheers,
Pete F.

[Nan3cy]

So if a guilty verdict is almost a miracle, how in the world is it that we have a higher percentage of our population in prison than any other country (except for some with which we really don't want to compare ourselves)? This is a conundrum that has bothered me for a long time. Are Americans that much worse than other people?  :(

[Nan3cy]

So if a guilty verdict is almost a miracle, how in the world is it that we have a higher percentage of our population in prison than any other country (except for some with which we really don't want to compare ourselves)? This is a conundrum that has bothered me for a long time. Are Americans that much worse than other people?  :(

[fullmetal]

Inequality, poverty, and social injustices can all lead to disregard for rule of law (especially if the law is not equitably applied or written).  At least we're not suffering from the narcoterrorism that Mexico is seeing.

[fullmetal]

Inequality, poverty, and social injustices can all lead to disregard for rule of law (especially if the law is not equitably applied or written).  At least we're not suffering from the narcoterrorism that Mexico is seeing.

[pefloresjr]

So if a guilty verdict is almost a miracle, how in the world is it that we have a higher percentage of our population in prison than any other country (except for some with which we really don't want to compare ourselves)? This is a conundrum that has bothered me for a long time. Are Americans that much worse than other people?  :(

Nearly all of the people in jail are there because of guilty pleas.  As for the big question, I think that Americans have long had a strong punishment or even revenge attitude when it comes to crime.  We also have a very strong system when it comes to defendant's rights.  When a defendant gets off "on a technicality" people tend to react emotionally and politicians respond accordingly.  The standard time for crimes almost never gets reduced by politicians.  Since the tax revolt that started in the 80's, it seems to me that less is spent on education and intervention than on the punishment part of the equation.  This is all happening at a time when there are fewer and fewer family and community forces keeping behavior in line.  I don't for a second think that those who commit crimes should be excused because we haven't done enough for them, but I do think that it is worth it to use some of my tax dollars trying to prevent crime rather than just punishing crime. 

There are no easy answers, just difficult problems.  I think we would have a better chance of finding solutions if both sides of the political spectrum embraced moderates who were looking for practical solutions rather than political victories. 

Cheers,
Pete F.

[pefloresjr]

So if a guilty verdict is almost a miracle, how in the world is it that we have a higher percentage of our population in prison than any other country (except for some with which we really don't want to compare ourselves)? This is a conundrum that has bothered me for a long time. Are Americans that much worse than other people?  :(

Nearly all of the people in jail are there because of guilty pleas.  As for the big question, I think that Americans have long had a strong punishment or even revenge attitude when it comes to crime.  We also have a very strong system when it comes to defendant's rights.  When a defendant gets off "on a technicality" people tend to react emotionally and politicians respond accordingly.  The standard time for crimes almost never gets reduced by politicians.  Since the tax revolt that started in the 80's, it seems to me that less is spent on education and intervention than on the punishment part of the equation.  This is all happening at a time when there are fewer and fewer family and community forces keeping behavior in line.  I don't for a second think that those who commit crimes should be excused because we haven't done enough for them, but I do think that it is worth it to use some of my tax dollars trying to prevent crime rather than just punishing crime. 

There are no easy answers, just difficult problems.  I think we would have a better chance of finding solutions if both sides of the political spectrum embraced moderates who were looking for practical solutions rather than political victories. 

Cheers,
Pete F.

[burger]

For what it's worth, the imprisonment rate in the US is finally starting to decline.  Also, rates of most major crimes have been declining for the last 10 or 20 years.  Hopefully these trends will continue.

[burger]

For what it's worth, the imprisonment rate in the US is finally starting to decline.  Also, rates of most major crimes have been declining for the last 10 or 20 years.  Hopefully these trends will continue.

[CowboyIndian]

For what it's worth, the imprisonment rate in the US is finally starting to decline.  Also, rates of most major crimes have been declining for the last 10 or 20 years.  Hopefully these trends will continue.

And they'll really fall off a cliff if we ever get around to legalizing marijuana.

[CowboyIndian]

For what it's worth, the imprisonment rate in the US is finally starting to decline.  Also, rates of most major crimes have been declining for the last 10 or 20 years.  Hopefully these trends will continue.

And they'll really fall off a cliff if we ever get around to legalizing marijuana.

[washingtonismoney]

[quote author=washingtonismoney link=topic=5541.msg40499#msg40499 date=1328756075]
McClellan could've used a little liquid courage.

I wonder whether Lincoln was thinking of McClellan when someone complained about Grant's drinking and Lincoln replied "tell me the brand of whiskey that Grant drinks. I would like to send a barrel of it to my other generals."
[/quote]

I don't think so--I can't find a date on the quotation, but Grant's rise to prominence coincides with the battle of Vicksburg in December 1862. McClellan's downfall began in early 1862 and was basically thrown out of the army after Antietam in September 1862.

[washingtonismoney]

[quote author=washingtonismoney link=topic=5541.msg40499#msg40499 date=1328756075]
McClellan could've used a little liquid courage.

I wonder whether Lincoln was thinking of McClellan when someone complained about Grant's drinking and Lincoln replied "tell me the brand of whiskey that Grant drinks. I would like to send a barrel of it to my other generals."
[/quote]

I don't think so--I can't find a date on the quotation, but Grant's rise to prominence coincides with the battle of Vicksburg in December 1862. McClellan's downfall began in early 1862 and was basically thrown out of the army after Antietam in September 1862.

[terry]

I think one could argue that Grant came to prominence by capturing Fort Henry and Fort Donelson in February 1862. Those victories won him a promotion to major general.

But I don't know whether the Lincoln quotation dates back that far. I couldn't find a date either.

[terry]

I think one could argue that Grant came to prominence by capturing Fort Henry and Fort Donelson in February 1862. Those victories won him a promotion to major general.

But I don't know whether the Lincoln quotation dates back that far. I couldn't find a date either.

[jayasena]

So if a guilty verdict is almost a miracle, how in the world is it that we have a higher percentage of our population in prison than any other country (except for some with which we really don't want to compare ourselves)? This is a conundrum that has bothered me for a long time. Are Americans that much worse than other people?  :(

I can't posit this as anything more than conjecture (i certainly don't have anything more than limited anecdotal evidence) but, as a society, we seem to have an interesting mix of lax controls and harsh punishments. It's quite easy to acquire the typical ingredients of crime (guns, drugs, alcohol etc.) but beat people up with big sticks when those easily-acquired ingredients are misused. Most other societies seem to have better correlations between controls and punishments -- either both are lax or both are strong.

What we have does seem to be the most desirable combination in a world where everyone is a well-informed and reasonable individual, so I'm not sure I want things to change. Then again, we do seem to have an ever-increasing fraction of the population that don't fit the description of "well-informed and reasonable" (or maybe I'm just getting old...)

[jayasena]

So if a guilty verdict is almost a miracle, how in the world is it that we have a higher percentage of our population in prison than any other country (except for some with which we really don't want to compare ourselves)? This is a conundrum that has bothered me for a long time. Are Americans that much worse than other people?  :(

I can't posit this as anything more than conjecture (i certainly don't have anything more than limited anecdotal evidence) but, as a society, we seem to have an interesting mix of lax controls and harsh punishments. It's quite easy to acquire the typical ingredients of crime (guns, drugs, alcohol etc.) but beat people up with big sticks when those easily-acquired ingredients are misused. Most other societies seem to have better correlations between controls and punishments -- either both are lax or both are strong.

What we have does seem to be the most desirable combination in a world where everyone is a well-informed and reasonable individual, so I'm not sure I want things to change. Then again, we do seem to have an ever-increasing fraction of the population that don't fit the description of "well-informed and reasonable" (or maybe I'm just getting old...)

[Robbie]

Don't forget the negative effect of the Skov DUI on the Stanford program - I have no doubt that many parents steer their sons toward Stanford because they see it as 'different' - that there is less of the crap that happens at other schools. This event is munition for those recruiting against us - we aren't that different.

Shame, really.

I have always thought that the story of the Skov family is compelling. And Shayne is a hell of a football player. I hope he keeps his head screwed on straight.

[Robbie]

Don't forget the negative effect of the Skov DUI on the Stanford program - I have no doubt that many parents steer their sons toward Stanford because they see it as 'different' - that there is less of the crap that happens at other schools. This event is munition for those recruiting against us - we aren't that different.

Shame, really.

I have always thought that the story of the Skov family is compelling. And Shayne is a hell of a football player. I hope he keeps his head screwed on straight.

[jacketree]

I think the extent of impact on the Stanford program will be the extent of whatever happens to Shayne Skov the individual.  No one is going to stay clear of Stanford because one more student was arrested for DUI.

It is a stupid analogy, but I didn't steer clear of Atlanta after watching people riot across from the admin building during the Missing and Murdered Children panic of 1980, or graduate school at Stanford because Ted Streleski used Maxwell's Silver Ball Peen Hammer on his faculty adviser.

[jacketree]

I think the extent of impact on the Stanford program will be the extent of whatever happens to Shayne Skov the individual.  No one is going to stay clear of Stanford because one more student was arrested for DUI.

It is a stupid analogy, but I didn't steer clear of Atlanta after watching people riot across from the admin building during the Missing and Murdered Children panic of 1980, or graduate school at Stanford because Ted Streleski used Maxwell's Silver Ball Peen Hammer on his faculty adviser.

[OutsiderFan]

I think the extent of impact on the Stanford program will be the extent of whatever happens to Shayne Skov the individual.  No one is going to stay clear of Stanford because one more student was arrested for DUI.

It is a stupid analogy, but I didn't steer clear of Atlanta after watching people riot across from the admin building during the Missing and Murdered Children panic of 1980, or graduate school at Stanford because Ted Streleski used Maxwell's Silver Ball Peen Hammer on his faculty adviser.

Marriet Ford and O.J. Simpson are not preventing parents from sending their kids to the alma maters of those former players.

[OutsiderFan]

I think the extent of impact on the Stanford program will be the extent of whatever happens to Shayne Skov the individual.  No one is going to stay clear of Stanford because one more student was arrested for DUI.

It is a stupid analogy, but I didn't steer clear of Atlanta after watching people riot across from the admin building during the Missing and Murdered Children panic of 1980, or graduate school at Stanford because Ted Streleski used Maxwell's Silver Ball Peen Hammer on his faculty adviser.

Marriet Ford and O.J. Simpson are not preventing parents from sending their kids to the alma maters of those former players.

[TRD]

The Daily story waaaaaay understates the circumstances of the J.J. Hones case. She led them on a Bullit-style chase across campus while drunk-driving her golf cart. Unless there's a lot more to Skov's case than simply being pulled over and issued a ticket, these cases are not comparable.

:o :o

[TRD]

The Daily story waaaaaay understates the circumstances of the J.J. Hones case. She led them on a Bullit-style chase across campus while drunk-driving her golf cart. Unless there's a lot more to Skov's case than simply being pulled over and issued a ticket, these cases are not comparable.

:o :o

[yvonne]

[quote author=OutsiderFan link=topic=5541.msg40536#msg40536 date=1328883044]
Marriet Ford and O.J. Simpson are not preventing parents from sending their kids to the alma maters of those former players.

And the Reggie Bush, and Mike Garrett legacy. Although maybe that is having a small effect. Who is Mariet Ford? The guy involved in The Play?
[/quote]

OJ Simpson is a convicted robber and kidnapper who was found liable in the wrongful death of two people. Mariet Ford is a convicted murderer of a woman, a child, and a fetus.

http://nyti.ms/yYMigq

[yvonne]

[quote author=OutsiderFan link=topic=5541.msg40536#msg40536 date=1328883044]
Marriet Ford and O.J. Simpson are not preventing parents from sending their kids to the alma maters of those former players.

And the Reggie Bush, and Mike Garrett legacy. Although maybe that is having a small effect. Who is Mariet Ford? The guy involved in The Play?
[/quote]

OJ Simpson is a convicted robber and kidnapper who was found liable in the wrongful death of two people. Mariet Ford is a convicted murderer of a woman, a child, and a fetus.

http://nyti.ms/yYMigq

[yvonne]

We don't have a convicted murderer amongst our football alumni, but we do have a convicted pedophile. I agree with OutsiderFan in that it's a pattern that will discourage parents from sending their sons to play for a team, not individual occurrences.

[yvonne]

We don't have a convicted murderer amongst our football alumni, but we do have a convicted pedophile. I agree with OutsiderFan in that it's a pattern that will discourage parents from sending their sons to play for a team, not individual occurrences.